Christian and Messianic. What’s in a name?

[HARK!]

When it comes to Christian appreciation of the Old Testament and the Torah specifically I think you are using a generalization of Christianity. What you are describing seems to be the Protestant view of the law rather than that of Christendom as a whole. Though you are correct, almost all Christians would say they are not bound by the law of circumcision for instance.

That seems to be a non sequitur. Circumcision isn't a law to my knowledge. It's a sign of the covenant. It is a sign of faith in YHWH. Are you saying that Christians aren't in the covenant of Abraham?

Genesis 17 (CLV)

9 And saying is the Elohim to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you, every male of your generations, homeborn or acquired with money from any foreigner, he who is not of your seed. 13 With circumcision shall be circumcised the homeborn and the one acquired with your money. And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (forever)

The act of Circumcision has no more value than Baptism, in absence of what they represent. It simply an outward sign of what has taken place within. If nothing has happened within; the outward sign is in vain.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Was this a typo; or are you being double minded?

Christendom being the people who believe in some form of Christianity. Christianity being the idea itself, which I believe is true and not false. I don't think it's hard to comprehend.

Messianics are a denomination of Christianity. You should choose your words more carefully. Christianity is all over the place. We wouldn't be all over the place if we we're following the living Torah, instead of the doctrines of men that Yahshua rebuked.

I remain unconvinced of this notion.

I don't have a vague knowledge of Yahshua. Although most of Christianity tramples Yhashua's message; it was Christianity that showed me to the message of Yahshua, not Judaism; however it's Judaism that drives Yahshua's message home.


Yahshua is the living Torah!

If we walk in his ways; we walk in the Torah.


Hallelu YAH!

Copy pasting a wall of biblical text tells me nothing about your own theology or any debt you owe to Christianity. Since you say 'most' Christianity has trampled the message of Christ I am reasonable to conclude that you have inherited nothing from it, except the idea that Jesus is the Messiah?

Is there nothing you can point to in my theology, besides this, that you agree with? The Trinity? The New Testament canon? The Incarnation?

In which case it would appear we have two completely different religions here.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

That seems to be a non sequitur. Circumcision isn't a law to my knowledge. It's a sign of the covenant. It is a sign of faith in YHWH. Are you saying that Christians aren't in the covenant of Abraham?

Genesis 17 (CLV)

9 And saying is the Elohim to Abraham, "And you shall keep My covenant, you and your seed after you for their generations. 10 This is My covenant, which you shall keep between Me and you and your seed after you for their generations: Circumcise to yourselves every male. 11 And circumcised shall you be in the flesh of your foreskin. And it comes to be for a sign of the covenant between Me and you. 12 And a son of eight days shall be circumcised by you, every male of your generations, homeborn or acquired with money from any foreigner, he who is not of your seed. 13 With circumcision shall be circumcised the homeborn and the one acquired with your money. And My covenant comes to be in your flesh for a covenant eonian (forever)

Well, God could make rocks the sons of Abraham if he desired and since rocks can't be circumcised I would have to wonder how it is Christians can't be made sons through the same process of adoption.

It seems to me, you are suggesting circumcision is mandatory for the Christian. I would maintain that circumcision doesn't have any value to me that I don't get through my faith in Jesus, the Christ.

 

[HARK!]

I remain unconvinced of this notion.

You're unconvinced of what specifically?

 

[HARK!]

It seems to me, you are suggesting circumcision is mandatory for the Christian. I would maintain that circumcision doesn't have any value to me that I don't get through my faith in Jesus, the Christ.

(CLV) Ja 2:14
What is the benefit, my brethren, if anyone should be saying he has faith, yet may have no works? That faith can not save him.

(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

(CLV) Ja 2:14
What is the benefit, my brethren, if anyone should be saying he has faith, yet may have no works? That faith can not save him.

(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

I'm not sure how these refer to the necessity of circumcision or how these quotes, isolated from our discussion and presented as quotations, actually respond to what I said. In using the same argument Paul did in Galatians and also referring to what John the Baptist said regarding rocks I was making a theological argument that I think is quite solid.

You are arguing that to be perfected, a son of Abraham, we ought to be circumcised. Yet Paul advocated gentiles not becoming circumcised and John said God could make rocks children of Abraham. It would then appear to be the case, to be considered sons and daughters of Abraham does not require circumcision.

Now this is all in the service of my initial point. Christians have not just willy nilly abandoned the law. Nor have they dismissed what Christ said. Rather it seems we have the correct interpretation, unlike Messianics like yourself. Since you can only speak for yourself.

You're unconvinced of what specifically?

Not sure if I'm allowed to say. So try to infer from my response what I am referring to. Specifically when you said messianicism is a denomination of Christianity.

 

[St. Helens]

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