Choices in the Garden of Eden

[Nihilist Virus]

The Bible says: “Eve was deceived”, but Adam was not deceived.

Eve did lots of things that were wrong, but not a sin against God prior to eating the fruit that led to her eating the fruit and Adam may have helped to mislead Eve, also.

Eve was extremely curious about the tree (like most women) and Adam may have been assigned to explain the truth about the tree to her, but did not address everything she would have liked to know and even in passing said “do not even touch the tree”.

Like most people; Eve was interested in having more knowledge, so she was willing to listen to someone (even a serpent) that told her what she wanted to hear: “you shall not die and you will become like God Himself”. Eve let herself lust after the fruit and eventually eat of it.

Adam knew he would die if he ate, but by this time with Eve, he loved her like Romeo in “Romeo and Juliet”, so he loved her more than God and could not live without her, so he ate also.

This does not answer the OP. It attempts to answer what you are quoting from me but uses many unsubstantiated claims such as, "...so he loved her more than God and could not live without her, so he ate also."

 

[popsthebuilder]

So what you are saying is that they were aware of right and wrong without being aware of good and evil? Or are you saying that they were aware of good and evil before eating of the tree? If so, why did God not want them to eat of the other tree? Please clarify.

I'm saying that they were aware that going against the creative force(GOD) of life was not beneficial to life by way of instinct, conscience, common sense, oh yeah, the direct word of GOD. Just not having Faith in what GOD specifically told you, and not believing it would bring death, basically calling the thing that created you and all for you a liar is pretty messed up. The things they learned weren't simple thought processes that they weren't capable of. They literally gained knowledge of specifically how to go against the will of GOD. They knew that, because partaking it in anyway was forbidden and would cause death. They knew what God was and that it was truth. They knew what death was.

They knew that doing that thing was wrong because it was against the will of GOD, indeed the only righteous way. Surely they didn't write and read, they knew God's will as it pertained to them, directly, individually, and wholly. They were utterly free, but actively chose that singular thing that was against their health or longevity. They knew this first hand from the actual word of GOD. Surely it was etched into their head and more so, their hearts or souls.

Are you trying to say that they didn't know what evil was because they hadn't yet experienced it? So regardless of knowing that it will kill you(on all levels) for all eternity, and that it was against the strong advise of the actual force that formed you within utter bliss, it is still not obvious that it isn't beneficial, ultimately.

You're still saying people are punished for something they didn't know about, but that's just not true. They didn't know the particular ways of evil, but they knew it was evil.

 

[popsthebuilder]

They knew right from wrong before eating of the tree?

Yes, just not the particular means of which to do wrong.

 

[ChetSinger]

If they truly understood they would die, and if they truly understood what death is, then WHY on this magnificent earth would they do it?

The fact is that they were unaware of good and evil and they were deceived by a clever, ancient, malicious being (he was there why exactly?), and then they were punished for it.

Almost, but not precisely. Eve was indeed deceived, but Adam was not.

The deceiver was there because he was a member of the heavenly host, and that mountain (Eden was a mountain) was the interaction point between heaven and earth. His punishment is greater than our own: we have been given a path to redemption and restoration in the new creation; afaik he has not.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Almost, but not precisely. Eve was indeed deceived, but Adam was not.

So Adam willfully ate poison. He ate something that he knew would kill him. Was Adam stupid?

The deceiver was there because he was a member of the heavenly host, and that mountain (Eden was a mountain) was the interaction point between heaven and earth. His punishment is greater than our own: we have been given a path to redemption and restoration in the new creation; afaik he has not.

Sounds great but it should be clear from what I said that I was asking why God let a crafty serpent anywhere near ignorantly innocent people.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Yes, just not the particular means of which to do wrong.

So...

1. They knew right from wrong before eating of the tree (according to you)
2. They did not know means of committing wrong (according to you)
3. The only actual means of committing wrong was disobedience (eating the fruit)
4. They ate the fruit

Did you think this through?

I'm saying that they were aware that going against the creative force(GOD) of life was not beneficial to life by way of instinct, conscience, common sense, oh yeah, the direct word of GOD. Just not having Faith in what GOD specifically told you, and not believing it would bring death, basically calling the thing that created you and all for you a liar is pretty messed up. The things they learned weren't simple thought processes that they weren't capable of. They literally gained knowledge of specifically how to go against the will of GOD. They knew that, because partaking it in anyway was forbidden and would cause death. They knew what God was and that it was truth. They knew what death was.

They knew that doing that thing was wrong because it was against the will of GOD, indeed the only righteous way. Surely they didn't write and read, they knew God's will as it pertained to them, directly, individually, and wholly. They were utterly free, but actively chose that singular thing that was against their health or longevity. They knew this first hand from the actual word of GOD. Surely it was etched into their head and more so, their hearts or souls.

Off topic. I'm talking about their actions before and up to when they ate and God's actions afterward.

Are you trying to say that they didn't know what evil was because they hadn't yet experienced it?

No. I'm saying they didn't know what evil was because they hadn't eaten the fruit.

So regardless of knowing that it will kill you(on all levels) for all eternity, and that it was against the strong advise of the actual force that formed you within utter bliss, it is still not obvious that it isn't beneficial, ultimately.

Agreed. I'm not claiming the story makes sense in any regard.

You're still saying people are punished for something they didn't know about, but that's just not true. They didn't know the particular ways of evil, but they knew it was evil.

So they knew about evil before eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of the story.

 

[popsthebuilder]

So...

1. They knew right from wrong before eating of the tree (according to you)
2. They did not know means of committing wrong (according to you)
3. The only actual means of committing wrong was disobedience (eating the fruit)
4. They ate the fruit

Did you think this through?



Off topic. I'm talking about their actions before and up to when they ate and God's actions afterward.



No. I'm saying they didn't know what evil was because they hadn't eaten the fruit.



Agreed. I'm not claiming the story makes sense in any regard.



So they knew about evil before eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of the story.

Not at all.

 

[ChetSinger]

So Adam willfully ate poison. He ate something that he knew would kill him. Was Adam stupid?

We're not given the reason.

Sounds great but it should be clear from what I said that I was asking why God let a crafty serpent anywhere near ignorantly innocent people.

That's a fair question. But we're all freewill beings, reaping both the benefits of our good decisions and the consequences of our poor ones. And the curse was broken 2,000 years ago so eternal life is again ours if we want:

The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. - Rev 22

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Not at all.

You are saying that you didn't think it through then?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

We're not given the reason.


That's a fair question. But we're all freewill beings, reaping both the benefits of our good decisions and the consequences of our poor ones. And the curse was broken 2,000 years ago so eternal life is again ours if we want:

I'm already a little fuzzy on the idea of free will. But if you are saying that Adam and Eve had free will, despite not knowing right from wrong, and were then punished for their actions... that just seems unjust. I can barely believe I'm saying this but the Mormon interpretation that Alla27 is pitching seems to make the most sense.

 

[popsthebuilder]

You are saying that you didn't think it through then?

No, it does not defeat the purpose of the story.

That is what I meant by not at all.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

No, it does not defeat the purpose of the story.

That is what I meant by not at all.

Can you tell me why it is called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil if it doesn't impart knowledge of good and evil? Can you tell why God was worried about them eating from the tree of life?

 

[popsthebuilder]

Can you tell me why it is called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil if it doesn't impart knowledge of good and evil? Can you tell why God was worried about them eating from the tree of life?

The knowledge was of ways not of GOD and as such of death.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Can you tell me why it is called the tree of the knowledge of good and evil if it doesn't impart knowledge of good and evil? Can you tell why God was worried about them eating from the tree of life?

GOD warned them of it for their sake, not his.

 

[ChetSinger]

I'm already a little fuzzy on the idea of free will. But if you are saying that Adam and Eve had free will, despite not knowing right from wrong, and were then punished for their actions... that just seems unjust. I can barely believe I'm saying this but the Mormon interpretation that Alla27 is pitching seems to make the most sense.

In Biblical theology we have free will. Our original purpose here was to be imagers of God: that is, to exercise authority over the earth on God's behalf. We must have free will in order to do this. So it is an attribute we share with God. Sin came into the world because both humans and divine beings (such as the bene Elohim) had been given free will.

Since Adam and Eve had free will it was possible for them to make choices that God didn't want them to make. God knew that sin would enter the world, because the NT says he prepared his plan for redemption before the creation itself. That doesn't mean sin was predestined, because God foresees all futures, even those that never actually happen. It means that sin was accounted for and prepared for.

There is a small lake near my house that freezes over in the winter. My children never saw or heard of anyone falling through thin ice there. So they had no personal experience of any danger. Nevertheless, I warned them to never walk out onto the lake without my permission. All they had to go on was my warning, weighed against the apparent hardness of the ice. Had they ever disobeyed me (they didn't) they might have suffered terrible consequences, regardless of their innocence. Because despite my warnings, they had free will.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

In Biblical theology we have free will. Our original purpose here was to be imagers of God: that is, to exercise authority over the earth on God's behalf. We must have free will in order to do this. So it is an attribute we share with God. Sin came into the world because both humans and divine beings (such as the bene Elohim) had been given free will.

So then Calvinism is as far from Christianity as Mormonism, or no?

Are Calvinists the ones who don't believe in free will?

Since Adam and Eve had free will it was possible for them to make choices that God didn't want them to make. God knew that sin would enter the world, because the NT says he prepared his plan for redemption before the creation itself. That doesn't mean sin was predestined, because God foresees all futures, even those that never actually happen. It means that sin was accounted for and prepared for.

OK so where is the part where you explain how it is justified for Adam and Even to be punished for their actions?

There is a small lake near my house that freezes over in the winter. My children never saw or heard of anyone falling through thin ice there. So they had no personal experience of any danger. Nevertheless, I warned them to never walk out onto the lake without my permission. All they had to go on was my warning, weighed against the apparent hardness of the ice. Had they ever disobeyed me (they didn't) they might have suffered terrible consequences, regardless of their innocence. Because despite my warnings, they had free will.

Your children were born with original sin so how are they are supposed to be representative examples of the Adam and Eve story is beyond me.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

The knowledge was of ways not of GOD and as such of death.

So... you are saying it was the opposite of the tree of life? It was a tree of death?

Are you going on record saying that the tree of knowledge had nothing to do with knowledge?

 

[ChetSinger]

So then Calvinism is as far from Christianity as Mormonism, or no?

Hardly. I'm not a Calvinist, but I know they don't believe that God was once a man, and that we can ourselves become God.

Are Calvinists the ones who don't believe in free will?

I'll pass on that one because I think Calvinism is best described by a Calvinist.

OK so where is the part where you explain how it is justified for Adam and Even to be punished for their actions?

I think they bore the consequences of their actions. The tree of life was the source of their eternal life so they were separated from it, were forced to start growing their own food, and eventually died.

Your children were born with original sin so how are they are supposed to be representative examples of the Adam and Eve story is beyond me.

Original sin or not, my children weren't guaranteed to disregard my warning and walk out onto that lake (and in fact, they never did). But they could have, because they had free will. Likewise, Adam and Eve weren't guaranteed to disregard God's warning and eat from that tree. But they could have, and did, because they had free will.

 

[popsthebuilder]

So... you are saying it was the opposite of the tree of life? It was a tree of death?

Are you going on record saying that the tree of knowledge had nothing to do with knowledge?

Stop adding to what I say.

The fruit was that of death, and greed which only brings death as all that is not of God is of death. Indeed it was not the tree of life.

Whole different tree there friend.

Peace

 

[popsthebuilder]

A Calvinist beleives the tenets of the TULIP.