CHECK THIS OUT: 666 IS REAL & PASTORS ARE PROMOTING IT!!! (Part 1)

[parousia70]

I thought I addressed every passage directed at me...what one did I miss...I am usually very thorough and thoughtful about not missing something directed at me so as not to be rude...

I'll re post:
God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

Where is the Record of this event in History?

God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)

Where is the Record of this event in History?

God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)

Where is the Record of this event in History?


God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)

Where is the Record of this event in History?

God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

Where is the Record of this event in History?

God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)

Where is the Record of this event in History?

God Comes During the Maccabean Period
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

Where is the Record of this event in History?

Can you prove from history that God was Seen Riding a cloud, weilding His sword, spewing Smoke from His nostrils, shooting arrows and dissolving the heavens, melting mountains, causing the moon sun and stars to not give their light, etc.... the way the Prophets above say He was?

Show me the EVIDENCE!

As stated in Matthew 21:33-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).


Never saw even ONE of these scriptures addressed by you.

You can start from the Bottom and work your way up.

I'll settle for your interpretation of when Matthew 21:33-45 came to pass as a start. I say 70AD. What say you?

 

[razzelflabben]

OK
"I said that every generation thinks they are living in the end times"

Though this was believed by every generation, it's can not be, nor was not factually correct for every generation.

"that is by design"

It is by design that every generation prior to ours believe something that could not be, not was not factually correct. It was a demonstrable falsehood.

"so that they are encouraged to watch and be prepared"

How is God encouraging folks to Watch and be prepared for an event He knew they were destined NEVER to see NOT deceptive??
And how is this deception not by design?

wow...got to run I will get back to this but if I forget remind me in the meantime think about it rather than just have an emotional response it is a very beautiful truth of scripture

 

[parousia70]

wow...got to run I will get back to this but if I forget remind me in the meantime think about it rather than just have an emotional response it is a very beautiful truth of scripture

I look forward to it

 

[razzelflabben]

OK
"I said that every generation thinks they are living in the end times"

Though this was believed by every generation, it's can not be, nor was not factually correct for every generation.

"that is by design"

It is by design that every generation prior to ours believe something that could not be, not was not factually correct. It was a demonstrable falsehood.

"so that they are encouraged to watch and be prepared"

How is God encouraging folks to Watch and be prepared for an event He knew they were destined NEVER to see NOT deceptive??
And how is this deception not by design?

okay, lets break down this simple concept and see if you can grasp it if we look at it backwards, I'm running out of ways to say the same thing so that you can understand.

what is the very nature of prophecy? It is to forthtell something that will happen, right? Right. Why is the forthtelling given? Two reasons according to scripture...1. to testify to us about the living God, right? Right. and 2. to draw us into a spiritual waiting and watching with preparation. Right? Right. Now as long as the prophecy does those two things it is consistent with God's plan and will for the prophecy, right? Right.

Now before we look into step two of this method of explanation lets look at a scripture passage...Matthew 24:6; Luke 21:8; You see, according to scripture we will see some of these things happen before the end is here and that is an indefinite time. In fact, Matthew 24:36 tells us that no one knows the day or the hour...so what then is the point of prophecy if we still won't know the day or the hour? BECAUSE THE VERY PURPOSE OF SCRIPTURE IS NOT TO TELL US EVERY DETAIL BUT RATHER TO TELL US ENOUGH DETAILS TO WATCH AND WAIT WITH PREPARATION.

So, the passages you posted which I addressed by saying that I was not saying those things had not yet happened means that I am not questioning or disagreeing that some of the prophecy has been fulfilled already...in fact, I said that some had, enough had to make each generation think that theirs would be the generation of His return...but the prophecy does NOT tell us the day or the hour nor does it say that the mark has already come which was the claim you were supposedly supporting with all this whole long line of prophecies that have already happened...which doesn't make your case at all and which I addressed by pointing out that the prophecies fulfilled were not in question or being debated.

So...I have just demonstrated that 1. I did already address all the passages of prophecy you posted, 2. that the mark of the beast is not listed among the completed prophecy as you claim 3. that a prophecy not yet fulfilled is in no way a lie attributed to God. 4. Prophecy when used according to God's plan is fulfilled when we watch and wait with preparation as we see in the parable of the virgins and others.

Did you understand my position that time around? If not, I will pray God gives me yet another way to say the same thing until you either understand or show that your misunderstanding is for the purpose of flaming....

 

[razzelflabben]

I'll re post:
God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

Where is the Record of this event in History?

God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)

Where is the Record of this event in History?

God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)

Where is the Record of this event in History?


God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)

Where is the Record of this event in History?

God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

Where is the Record of this event in History?

God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)

Where is the Record of this event in History?

God Comes During the Maccabean Period
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

Where is the Record of this event in History?

Can you prove from history that God was Seen Riding a cloud, weilding His sword, spewing Smoke from His nostrils, shooting arrows and dissolving the heavens, melting mountains, causing the moon sun and stars to not give their light, etc.... the way the Prophets above say He was?

Show me the EVIDENCE!

As stated in Matthew 21:33-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).


Never saw even ONE of these scriptures addressed by you.

You can start from the Bottom and work your way up.

I'll settle for your interpretation of when Matthew 21:33-45 came to pass as a start. I say 70AD. What say you?

I already addressed those...why didn't you read it?

 

[Endtime Survivors]

okay, lets break down this simple concept and see if you can grasp it if we look at it backwards, I'm running out of ways to say the same thing so that you can understand.

I don't think it is a lack of intelligence. Quite a few people I disagree with on this forum strike me as particularly intelligent. The essence of a "forum" in general is one of sharing ideas and, even when I think people are ignorant, arrogant, proud, selfish, or lazy in how they compose their thoughts, I think it still takes a reasonable amount of intelligence to even be here in the first place.

I think the issue of the Mark isn't one of ignorance so much as fear. It's frightening, because a sincere examination of the prophecy necessarily forces us to question our relationship to materialism. It's tempting to say that lesson was for other people, or to explain that the lesson isn't really about our relationship to money, or to pretend it's all about the good intentions in our heart rather than how we actually behave. Most of us genuinely believe we could not live without money. The concept of sharing is too alien.

We're afraid that people won't help us if we help them. People will take advantage of us. They will cheat us. They will hurt us; all very legitimate-sounding explanations for why there should never be any question regarding the validity of wages as the standard for maintaining civility, order, and comfort in the world around us.

The spiritual lesson behind the Mark isn't new. Jesus taught over and over again about our relationship to mammon (money and the things money can buy). This message wasn't for "this time period" or "that time period" but rather part of the foundation of God's kingdom, where people help one another because they want to, and not because they're afraid of starving to death.

The Mark is new in that it represents a miracle, or sorts; 2000 years (nearly) of foresight predicting the location (hand/forehead), purpose (buying/selling) and target (globally) of the Mark. It will be one last attempt by God to emphasize the point about trusting him vs trusting the worldly system, just like Jesus taught.

 

[razzelflabben]

I don't think it is a lack of intelligence. Quite a few people I disagree with on this forum strike me as particularly intelligent.

not sure why you would think it is a matter of intelligence, I didn't even suggest it was about intelligence...but okay...

The essence of a "forum" in general is one of sharing ideas and, even when I think people are ignorant, arrogant, proud, selfish, or lazy in how they compose their thoughts, I think it still takes a reasonable amount of intelligence to even be here in the first place.

again, not sure why you are talking about intelligence I was just talking about grasping a concept which is a two way street, but whatever..personally I think it is rude and insulting to make it about intelligence as you are doing here.

I think the issue of the Mark isn't one of ignorance so much as fear. It's frightening, because a sincere examination of the prophecy necessarily forces us to question our relationship to materialism. It's tempting to say that lesson was for other people, or to explain that the lesson isn't really about our relationship to money, or to pretend it's all about the good intentions in our heart rather than how we actually behave. Most of us genuinely believe we could not live without money. The concept of sharing is too alien.

for most this is true, but again, why bring this into what I said? Seriously, if you want to quote me and address what I said please do, if you just want to talk to whomever will listen to you, then leave me out of it since you seem bent on not addressing anything I am saying.

We're afraid that people won't help us if we help them. People will take advantage of us. They will cheat us. They will hurt us; all very legitimate-sounding explanations for why there should never be any question regarding the validity of wages as the standard for maintaining civility, order, and comfort in the world around us.

The spiritual lesson behind the Mark isn't new. Jesus taught over and over again about our relationship to mammon (money and the things money can buy). This message wasn't for "this time period" or "that time period" but rather part of the foundation of God's kingdom, where people help one another because they want to, and not because they're afraid of starving to death.

yep...consistent with everything I said....so you start this post by quoting me out of context, twisting that into something I didn't say then return to something consistent with what I said....and you don't know why you are confusing people

The Mark is new in that it represents a miracle, or sorts; 2000 years (nearly) of foresight predicting the location (hand/forehead), purpose (buying/selling) and target (globally) of the Mark. It will be one last attempt by God to emphasize the point about trusting him vs trusting the worldly system, just like Jesus taught.

and how does that address anything I said? See, you take me out of context, quote me then talk about something totally off topic of what I said and think that is somehow okay...by forum rules it is NOT okay to misrepresent other posters as you are doing here.

 

[LostMarbels]

Hi all. Here's another video, this one about the Mark of the Beast. It's a bit longer than the other videos (a run time of 18 minutes) and it comes in 3 parts (the other 2 parts will be released later).

The video attempts to detail how the Mark of the Beast will almost certainly manifest itself as a microchip implant in the hand for buying/selling and how various strategies for taking it are being developed and disseminated to the general public.

I look forward to some lively discussion.

I do not hold to a micro chip being the mark of the beast in of itself. In a cashless society, an implant will mostly be just another option. We can already swipe a phone over a sensor, pay online using many platforms like paypal and the like. It is also more reasonable to believe biometrics will play a huge part in this, as we see more cars that are started by your fingerprints. Our phones already unlock with our finger prints. How reasonable would it be to control an entire populace in a developed country with such technology? Kitchens, and laundry mats that order products/food for our homes are also being currently developed. Some of us are already so linked we can lock our doors, turn on/off lights in our homes, and even start our self parking car with our phones.

However... there are a few big popular misconceptions for me. Technology could not be enforced all over the earth because some counties do not have the infrastructure in place to enact, nor enforce it. Some places do not even have power, running water, plumbing, or even more than a single phone in the entire village. If that.

 

[parousia70]

okay, lets break down this simple concept and see if you can grasp it if we look at it backwards, I'm running out of ways to say the same thing so that you can understand.

what is the very nature of prophecy? It is to forthtell something that will happen, right? Right. Why is the forthtelling given? Two reasons according to scripture...1. to testify to us about the living God, right? Right. and 2. to draw us into a spiritual waiting and watching with preparation. Right? Right. Now as long as the prophecy does those two things it is consistent with God's plan and will for the prophecy, right? Right.

Lets break that down.
Prophesy contains two features, A WHAT, and a WHEN.

It appears that you are saying the WHEN of a prophesy really isn't important, and can be stretched, spiritualized and and elasticized to suit anyone at anytime.

Lets try that out:

When God Told Noah "In Seven Days I will make it rain forty days and forty Nights" (Genesis 7:4) do you believe God would have been true to His own word, His own promise, if He waited 23 days and made it rain 32 Days and 32 Nights? (Or for that matter, waited 7000 years and made it rain 40,000 years, Since one day=1000 years to God?) Because as you seem to be saying "God can accomplish this in whatever time frame He wants"?

Or was God BOUND by His own Earthly, Human time limit He placed on the passing of His word to Make the rain Start 7 earth Days after He gave the Prophesy to Noah, and make the rain last 40 earth days & Nights"?

Scripture gives us the answer:
(Genesis 7:10, 12)
10 And it came to pass after seven days that the waters of the flood were on the earth...12 And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.

Notice How true God is to His own word!
Notice not only the "what" of the prophesy (The Rain/Flood) but also the "when" of the Prophesy (7 & 40 Earth Days) were fulfilled TO THE LETTER.

In Every scriptural instance that God put a time limit on a prophesy's fulfillment, it was given and understood by how time relates to man and not how time relates to God. Every one, without fail, always.

Even in the face of such unwaivering scriptural precident, there are still those who say that God's time statements are irrelevant, because God tells time different than man.

Numbers 24:17 "I see Him, but not now; I behold Him, but not near; A Star shall come out of Jacob; A Scepter shall rise out of Israel, And batter the brow of Moab, And destroy all the sons of tumult.

Of what value are the time indicators in the above passage of "not now" and "not near" if the value of "now" and "near" is to be streched into thousands of years?

If "now" and "near" are to be interpreted in polar opposite fashion of their literal meaning to mean "far" ie; thousands of years, then should "not near" and "not now" be likewise interpreted exactly opposite to mean near, soon, or even immediately?

Can we trust God to do what He says He'll do, when He says He'll do it? or is the "when" of a prophesy irrelevant because of Gods timeless nature?

In fact, Matthew 24:36 tells us that no one knows the day or the hour...so what then is the point of prophecy if we still won't know the day or the hour? BECAUSE THE VERY PURPOSE OF SCRIPTURE IS NOT TO TELL US EVERY DETAIL BUT RATHER TO TELL US ENOUGH DETAILS TO WATCH AND WAIT WITH PREPARATION.

Again, Why would God Tell Noah, in "Seven Days I'm going to send the Rain" if the purpose was to make every generation since watch for the coming flood?

So, the passages you posted which I addressed by saying that I was not saying those things had not yet happened means that I am not questioning or disagreeing that some of the prophecy has been fulfilled already...

Then Throw me a Bone and try to be as direct as possible....

When did Matthew 21:33-45 take place?

in fact, I said that some had, enough had to make each generation think that theirs would be the generation of His return...but the prophecy does NOT tell us the day or the hour nor does it say that the mark has already come which was the claim you were supposedly supporting with all this whole long line of prophecies that have already happened...which doesn't make your case at all and which I addressed by pointing out that the prophecies fulfilled were not in question or being debated.

Would you agree that the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied in scripture?

A simple yes or no will do.

I did already address all the passages of prophecy you posted,

No, you did not.

Show me from History the record of God Riding a Cloud into Egypt, Shooting arrows at Saul's Armies, wielding His sword with Smoke billowing from His nostrils as He was seen by the eyes of all nations?

If you can't produce this extra biblical proof from the annuls of History for the fulfillment of these Biblical events, how is it that you can ask the same of me with a straight face?

2. that the mark of the beast is not listed among the completed prophecy as you claim

Nor is the 70AD Destruction of Jerusalem listed among the completed events... so Is your claim that never happened?

Did you understand my position that time around?

I understand it, I just don't see much evidence of it being grounded in scripture and find your view quite inconsistent.... You expect certain "proofs" from me that you yourself refuse to provide when asked...

But I'm a patient man. I will pray for you as well.

 

[razzelflabben]

Lets break that down.
Prophesy contains two features, A WHAT, and a WHEN.

It appears that you are saying the WHEN of a prophesy really isn't important, and can be stretched, spiritualized and and elasticized to suit anyone at anytime.

not even close to what I said...and I am personally out of ways to know how to explain this simple concept without getting nasty as a certain poster we know already did by trying to claim it was an intellectual thing...I guess we will just have to wait for God to reveal this beautiful truth of scripture to you.

Lets try that out:

When God Told Noah "In Seven Days I will make it rain forty days and forty Nights" (Genesis 7:4) do you believe God would have been true to His own word, His own promise, if He waited 23 days and made it rain 32 Days and 32 Nights? (Or for that matter, waited 7000 years and made it rain 40,000 years, Since one day=1000 years to God?) Because as you seem to be saying "God can accomplish this in whatever time frame He wants"?

since you are once again flaming me by trying to reinvent what I said then responding to that new version I have no idea what you are talking about. Seriously I don't...I said nothing at all about the exactness of prophecy...in fact, that it is exact is a mandatory premise to what I said.

Or was God BOUND by His own Earthly, Human time limit He placed on the passing of His word to Make the rain Start 7 earth Days after He gave the Prophesy to Noah, and make the rain last 40 earth days & Nights"?

Scripture gives us the answer:
(Genesis 7:10, 12)
10 And it came to pass after seven days that the waters of the flood were on the earth...12 And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.

Notice How true God is to His own word!
Notice not only the "what" of the prophesy (The Rain/Flood) but also the "when" of the Prophesy (7 & 40 Earth Days) were fulfilled TO THE LETTER.

In Every scriptural instance that God put a time limit on a prophesy's fulfillment, it was given and understood by how time relates to man and not how time relates to God. Every one, without fail, always.

Even in the face of such unwaivering scriptural precident, there are still those who say that God's time statements are irrelevant, because God tells time different than man.

see, this right here is what makes your posts inflamatory. I say something, you quote me, reinvent what I said them argue because there are "still those who...." I'm not one of them so why try to paint this public picture that I am? You see, that is inflammatory and rude and in all ways dishonest and I will not tolerate it for long.

Numbers 24:17 "I see Him, but not now; I behold Him, but not near; A Star shall come out of Jacob; A Scepter shall rise out of Israel, And batter the brow of Moab, And destroy all the sons of tumult.

Of what value are the time indicators in the above passage of "not now" and "not near" if the value of "now" and "near" is to be streched into thousands of years?

If "now" and "near" are to be interpreted in polar opposite fashion of their literal meaning to mean "far" ie; thousands of years, then should "not near" and "not now" be likewise interpreted exactly opposite to mean near, soon, or even immediately?

Can we trust God to do what He says He'll do, when He says He'll do it? or is the "when" of a prophesy irrelevant because of Gods timeless nature?

see, this is the very point I was making...God is true to His word and if we look at the totality of scripture we see how that fits with the totality of scripture not just the parts we want to pretend to know when we don't. As I said, I will not continue to tolerate your flaming...you are free to review the revised flaming rules if you find it necessary.

Again, Why would God Tell Noah, in "Seven Days I'm going to send the Rain" if the purpose was to make every generation since watch for the coming flood?

see, I didn't say God gave the flood prophecy so that all generations would watch for the coming flood...how totally silly of you to even try to twist it that way...sad really that your position is so weak that you would try this with me.

Then Throw me a Bone and try to be as direct as possible....

When did Matthew 21:33-45 take place?

Would you agree that the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied in scripture?

A simple yes or no will do.

we are talking about what in this discussion? The flood? No The birth of Christ? No There is a rule against taking a thread off topic, so what are we talking about here? Be specific and review the OP if you need to but I am sure you can figure it out if you try.

No, you did not.

Show me from History the record of God Riding a Cloud into Egypt, Shooting arrows at Saul's Armies, wielding His sword with Smoke billowing from His nostrils as He was seen by the eyes of all nations?

If you can't produce this extra biblical proof from the annuls of History for the fulfillment of these Biblical events, how is it that you can ask the same of me with a straight face?

well, since that is NOT what I asked that is a stupid question to ask me now isn't it?

Nor is the 70AD Destruction of Jerusalem listed among the completed events... so Is your claim that never happened?

my claim was very clear but since you can't even respond to what I said I'm guessing you aren't really reading what I said for comprehension and instead just want to start an argument for the sake of flaming me into one. I don't play that game.

I understand it, I just don't see much evidence of it being grounded in scripture and find your view quite inconsistent.... You expect certain "proofs" from me that you yourself refuse to provide when asked...

But I'm a patient man. I will pray for you as well.

 

[razzelflabben]

Lets break that down.
Prophesy contains two features, A WHAT, and a WHEN.

It appears that you are saying the WHEN of a prophesy really isn't important, and can be stretched, spiritualized and and elasticized to suit anyone at anytime.

then you didn't read what I said for comprehension since my position requires prophecy to be 100% accurate 100% of the time.

Lets try that out:

When God Told Noah "In Seven Days I will make it rain forty days and forty Nights" (Genesis 7:4) do you believe God would have been true to His own word, His own promise, if He waited 23 days and made it rain 32 Days and 32 Nights? (Or for that matter, waited 7000 years and made it rain 40,000 years, Since one day=1000 years to God?) Because as you seem to be saying "God can accomplish this in whatever time frame He wants"?

Or was God BOUND by His own Earthly, Human time limit He placed on the passing of His word to Make the rain Start 7 earth Days after He gave the Prophesy to Noah, and make the rain last 40 earth days & Nights"?

Scripture gives us the answer:
(Genesis 7:10, 12)
10 And it came to pass after seven days that the waters of the flood were on the earth...12 And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.

Notice How true God is to His own word!
Notice not only the "what" of the prophesy (The Rain/Flood) but also the "when" of the Prophesy (7 & 40 Earth Days) were fulfilled TO THE LETTER.

In Every scriptural instance that God put a time limit on a prophesy's fulfillment, it was given and understood by how time relates to man and not how time relates to God. Every one, without fail, always.

see, according to the revised forum rules it is considered flaming for you to reinvent what I said into something I didn't say and that I find offensive then pretend I said it. Just so you know, I will not continue to allow this flaming you insist on to continue indefinately.

Even in the face of such unwaivering scriptural precident, there are still those who say that God's time statements are irrelevant, because God tells time different than man.

see, this is your problem, you quote me, talk to me but are addressing "those who say that...." it is NOT okay to reinvent what I am saying this way and then pretend in public that I am saying something I didn't say and something I find offensive.

Numbers 24:17 "I see Him, but not now; I behold Him, but not near; A Star shall come out of Jacob; A Scepter shall rise out of Israel, And batter the brow of Moab, And destroy all the sons of tumult.

Of what value are the time indicators in the above passage of "not now" and "not near" if the value of "now" and "near" is to be streched into thousands of years?

If "now" and "near" are to be interpreted in polar opposite fashion of their literal meaning to mean "far" ie; thousands of years, then should "not near" and "not now" be likewise interpreted exactly opposite to mean near, soon, or even immediately?

Can we trust God to do what He says He'll do, when He says He'll do it? or is the "when" of a prophesy irrelevant because of Gods timeless nature?

Again, Why would God Tell Noah, in "Seven Days I'm going to send the Rain" if the purpose was to make every generation since watch for the coming flood?

Then Throw me a Bone and try to be as direct as possible....

When did Matthew 21:33-45 take place?

have you read forum rules? There is a rule about not getting off topic. Now, the OP isn't hard to find if you need to refresh your mind on the topic being discussed but here is a hint, we are NOT talking about the flood or the birth of Christ...we aren't even talking about Israel and what will happen to Israel...what are we talking about? Do you know? That is the prophecy we are discussing here.

Would you agree that the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied in scripture?

A simple yes or no will do.

No, you did not.

Show me from History the record of God Riding a Cloud into Egypt, Shooting arrows at Saul's Armies, wielding His sword with Smoke billowing from His nostrils as He was seen by the eyes of all nations?

If you can't produce this extra biblical proof from the annuls of History for the fulfillment of these Biblical events, how is it that you can ask the same of me with a straight face?

since that is NOT what I asked why would you ask me why I asked it? See, that is the problem, you are NOT addressing me and the things I am saying which is inflammatory according to forum rules.

The claim was made that the mark of the beast had already come...I asked for evidence that the mark of the beast was already upon the world...you went off on so many different, unrelated things you may very well have forgotten what you were asked which is why I am tolerating the flaming in this post, but I won't continue to do so for long.

Nor is the 70AD Destruction of Jerusalem listed among the completed events... so Is your claim that never happened?

I understand it, I just don't see much evidence of it being grounded in scripture and find your view quite inconsistent.... You expect certain "proofs" from me that you yourself refuse to provide when asked...

But I'm a patient man. I will pray for you as well.

apparently you don't understand it if you are being honest above...so you couldn't make that judgment call on something you don't understand. If the above is not an honest response then it is simply inflammatory and has no place on this thread...either way, you aren't in a position to make the call as to whether or not it is scriptural.

As to proofs, what proof do you want that I actually did say that wasn't already provided? See, reinventing what I said then asking for proof is not a valid thing to ask me to do, I don't have to try to prove some reinvention of what I said and to ask me to do so is inflammatory.

 

[razzelflabben]

sorry for the repeat...it said it didn't post and instead lost my response so I provided another version of the same response only to find it was there.

 

[Straightshot]

"Would you agree that the 70AD destruction of Jerusalem was prophesied in scripture?

A simple yes or no will do"


No .... the Roman incursions in 70 AD are not included in the scope of the Lord's more sure word of prophecy

This error of the preteristic rendering has been one of the biggest corruptions of eschatological study .... misleading and false

 

[parousia70]

The claim was made that the mark of the beast had already come...I asked for evidence that the mark of the beast was already upon the world...

Yet the "evidence" you ask for I have demonstrated that you are inconsistent about asking for, which I also find offensive.

Why should I supply to you that which you refuse to supply for me?

you went off on so many different, unrelated things you may very well have forgotten what you were asked

Rather, They are absolutely related. That you appear uncomfortable with my reasoning is apparent, but my reasoning is Biblically sound and grounded.

which is why I am tolerating the flaming in this post, but I won't continue to do so for long.

They I suppose you can report me for flaiming and leave it to the Mods to judge.

From my perspective, you are stonewalling, and using "he's flaming me" as an excuse not to address the points I am making...

I'm attempting to uncover some sort of consistency in your argument, and so far I haven't seen any.

The MOB was a first century reality, and I have shown Scripture demands it.
You don't accept my veiw, but when challenged, have offered no scripture that contradicts my view. Instead you seem to be saying... No, every generation needs to watch for the Mark... I reject that for the same reason I reject the notion that every generation needs to watch for Noah's flood.

Neither of those prophesies were meant for our generation to watch for. Nothing you have offered beyond your opinion shows otherwise.

 

[Straightshot]

"The MOB was a first century reality, and I have shown Scripture demands it."


I missed this one .... please respond again, let's see what you have

Also, while you are at it .... give your full rendering of Ezekiel 38; 39 and Zechariah 14

 

[razzelflabben]

Yet the "evidence" you ask for I have demonstrated that you are inconsistent about asking for, which I also find offensive.

Why should I supply to you that which you refuse to supply for me?

I asked you what claim I actually did make that you wanted me to evidence and instead of telling me you levie this accusation...why not just simply tell me what claim I actually made you want me to evidence? Not some reinvention, just what I actually did claim?

Oh and btw, where is the evidence you presented that the mark of the beast has already been part of the history of human life on earth? That was what you claimed and I asked you to evidence...I don't see that evidence, just point me to it or summarize either one.

Rather, They are absolutely related. That you appear uncomfortable with my reasoning is apparent, but my reasoning is Biblically sound and grounded.

I don't have a clue what you think you are arguing...how is fulfilled prophecy evidence of the existence of the mark of the beast already in our population? I don't get how you are connecting that....

They I suppose you can report me for flaiming and leave it to the Mods to judge.

From my perspective, you are stonewalling, and using "he's flaming me" as an excuse not to address the points I am making...

I have addressed everything you said that relates to what I said. I have ignored and dismissed everything that was part of your reinvention.

I'm attempting to uncover some sort of consistency in your argument, and so far I haven't seen any.

I have been nothing but consistent...in fact, consistency is one of my pet peeves. your not seeing that is just more evidence that you have no clue what you are responding to and just making things up as you go.

The MOB was a first century reality, and I have shown Scripture demands it.

please at least summarize it for me...all I saw was a bunch of other fulfilled prophecies and you trying to change the things I have said so you had something to say. If you drop the reinventing and just stick to the question at hand we might be able to get along.

You don't accept my veiw, but when challenged, have offered no scripture that contradicts my view. Instead you seem to be saying... No, every generation needs to watch for the Mark... I reject that for the same reason I reject the notion that every generation needs to watch for Noah's flood.

huh? That isn't what I said at all....man, you are confusing yourself so bad by not just addressing what I said...that might be a very good reason to obey forum rules so that you don't keep confusing yourself.

Neither of those prophesies were meant for our generation to watch for. Nothing you have offered beyond your opinion shows otherwise.

I'm still waiting for you to show evidence that the mark of the beast has already been bestowed to the people of the world...that was your claim, why not just evidence it and move on...if there is really evidence, I will accept it but you didn't present any so far.

 

[razzelflabben]

"The MOB was a first century reality, and I have shown Scripture demands it."

you didn't show any evidence....still waiting for some.

I missed this one .... please respond again, let's see what you have

Also, while you are at it .... give your full rendering of Ezekiel 38; 39 and Zechariah 14

what do you want to know about them? Seriously what do you want me to say about them? Why would you bring them up and what have I said that would bring them into the discussion?

 

[parousia70]

I'm still waiting for you to show evidence that the mark of the beast has already been bestowed to the people of the world...that was your claim, why not just evidence it and move on...if there is really evidence, I will accept it but you didn't present any so far.

Again, I have shown you that scripture demands the MotB was a first century reality and not something that is yet to happen.

And again, when I press you to show me similar evidence of a host of other prophesies that you seem to believe are likewise past, you offer nothing.

Why should I be required to provide a level of "proof" of the MotB prophesy that you refuse to offer me for any number of other "fulfilled" prophesies?

What makes the MotB prophesy so special to you that it requires more "proof" than any of the others I mentioned?

I'll be as Direct as Possible.
The MotB was divinely ordained to come to pass "shortly" after John was Given the vision for the time was then "at Hand":

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

 

[razzelflabben]

Again, I have shown you that scripture demands the MotB was a first century reality and not something that is yet to happen.

And again, when I press you to show me similar evidence of a host of other prophesies that you seem to believe are likewise past, you offer nothing.

Why should I be required to provide a level of "proof" of the MotB prophesy that you refuse to offer me for any number of other "fulfilled" prophesies?

I asked you only for evidence to the one prophecy you claimed was fulfilled but lacked anything to evidence it was...why should you evidence it? Because you made the claim.

See, the only claim I made about prophecy is that it has two purposes 1. point us to the truth of God...and for that we don't even need to look further than the prophecies about Christ birth though we could go into more. and 2. that we will be prepared and watching as we see the need for in the parable of the virgins and the end times prophecies.

So,, there you have a summary of my claims and evidence for them. Now, your claim was that the mark of the beast has already come and the only evidence I have seen is your talking about other prophecies that have already happened like the flood and the birth of Christ which says nothing at all about the mark of the beast. now please feel free to summarize your evidence as I have just done, but stop already with this false accusations and non sense that is not related to anything being said...

What makes the MotB prophesy so special to you that it requires more "proof" than any of the others I mentioned?

it's the topic of the thread!!!!!!!!!!!
and just for the record, I am not requiring more evidence I'm asking for any evidence....any at all...

 

[parousia70]

and just for the record, I am not requiring more evidence I'm asking for any evidence....any at all...

Which I gave and you ignored... here it is again:

The MotB was divinely ordained to come to pass "shortly" after John was Given the vision for the time was then "at Hand":

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.


The evidence has been testified to by many scholars.

CORRELATING EVENTS IN JOHN'S TIME:

William Barclay's generic comments on The Mark:

* On every contract of buying or selling there was a charagma, a seal, and on the seal the name of the emperor and the date. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who worship the beast accept his authority. Note: this could also be the seal of ownership.

* All coinage had the head and inscription of the emperor stamped upon it, to show that it was his property [coins read: "Caesar is God"]. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who bear it are the property of the beast.

* When a man had burned his pinch of incense to Caesar, he was given a certificate to say he had done so. The mark of the beast may be the certificate of worship which a Christian could obtain only at the cost of denying his faith.


--------------------
Enforced Emperor Worship:

The Imperial-Cult worship of the Emperor as Lord was enforced throughout the entire empire. Roman officers governed this practice to make sure everyone was abiding by the law -- when one offered sacrifices to Caesar compliance certificates were issued that you had worshipped the Emperor. These certificates allowed business as usual within the Roman system. Failure to comply was an act of War against the Roman State.

-----------------------
DAVID CHILTON: On Economic Boycotts

The Jewish Leaders organized economic boycotts against those who refused to submit to Caesar as Lord, the leaders of the synagogues "forbidding all dealings with the excommunicated," and going so far as to put them to death.

---------------------

6-6-6: The Number of the Existing Caesar

The Hebrew form of "Caesar Nero" is Nrwn Qsr (pronounced "Neron Kaiser"). The value of the seven Hebrew letters is 50, 200, 6, 50, 100, 60, and 200, respectively.