CHECK THIS OUT: 666 IS REAL & PASTORS ARE PROMOTING IT!!! (Part 1)

[parousia70]

not sure how, but please lay out your evidence for this conclusion so we can examine it

Sure thing,
There are two identifiable "marks" in Revelation.

The sealing of the 144,000 jews is accomplished by a mark in the forehead in parallel fashion to the MARK of the beast in the forehead (see Rev. 9:4 and Rev. 7:2-8 and Rev 14:1). Futurists are never consistent on this -- if one is physical-literal then shouldn't BOTH MARKS be seen as physical-literal? Yet just ask a futurist who is the "computer chip manufacturer" today who is producing the "Mark of God," and they have no answer. However, they will speculate all day and night on which technology company is in cahoots with satan to produce his computer implant. I propose that Bill Gates is working on the "Mark-of-God chip implant" for the 144,000, and I'm getting it the moment it's released.. Hehe.

But, in fact, John didn't have computer chips in mind at all when he wrote the passage. Rather, as in so many other parts of Revelation, he was quoting the Old Testament. The following passages should be carefully examined when discussing "the mark on the forehead or hand" that marks people for doom or salvation:

Ez. Chapter 9 -- angels mark people for God's destruction of Jerusalem in 6th Century B.C.

Deut 6:8, Deut 11:18, Exodus 13:9 -- God's marks commanded to be upon the head and hands of his people to show their faithfulness

John's notions in his vision are related to Old Testament concepts -- not modern day conjectures that the MARK of the beast is to be thought of as a some computer product.

Furthermore, if there is any "Church Age Dispensation" or "1948" or "Computerized mark" to be found in prophetic scripture, then Revelation 2-3 clearly demonstrates that Jesus knew nothing about it!

There is no way around it, the testimony in those Chapters either makes the Glorified Jesus entirely ignorant of the Long Church Age Dispensation, ignorant of 1948, and ignorant of any computerized mark that is inserted into one's hand, or renders those modern, speculative views entirely unscriptural.

My money is on the latter.

 

[tatteredsoul]

Hi all. Here's another video, this one about the Mark of the Beast. It's a bit longer than the other videos (a run time of 18 minutes) and it comes in 3 parts (the other 2 parts will be released later).

The video attempts to detail how the Mark of the Beast will almost certainly manifest itself as a microchip implant in the hand for buying/selling and how various strategies for taking it are being developed and disseminated to the general public.

I look forward to some lively discussion.

I think this is a red herring.

This entity called "Antichrist," housing the beast spirit, will be so convincing that even the elect would be deceived if possible.

We don't know who the beast is yet. So, we don't really know what its mark is. However, we do know that you are marked for God by your faith, and the fruit of your faith (forehead/behavior, and HANDIwork.)

So, the real mark will be something one trusts and believe in to be good, as well as practice in action. A chip doesn't necessarily constitute an allegiance to something. Although, it could certainly be a part of the entire system.

The mark is already being made manifest in people, which is why God says there will be a time when people no longer convert, or try to find Him. The concentration of marked persons of God has an asymptotic limit.

 

[razzelflabben]

Sure thing,
There are two identifiable "marks" in Revelation.

The sealing of the 144,000 jews is accomplished by a mark in the forehead in parallel fashion to the MARK of the beast in the forehead (see Rev. 9:4 and Rev. 7:2-8 and Rev 14:1). Futurists are never consistent on this -- if one is physical-literal then shouldn't BOTH MARKS be seen as physical-literal? Yet just ask a futurist who is the "computer chip manufacturer" today who is producing the "Mark of God," and they have no answer. However, they will speculate all day and night on which technology company is in cahoots with satan to produce his computer implant. I propose that Bill Gates is working on the "Mark-of-God chip implant" for the 144,000, and I'm getting it the moment it's released.. Hehe.

this isn't evidence the mark of the beast has already come...that is what I asked for..this is just more hashing over whether or not it is literal mark which I already stated my position is I don't know which is fine with me.

But, in fact, John didn't have computer chips in mind at all when he wrote the passage. Rather, as in so many other parts of Revelation, he was quoting the Old Testament. The following passages should be carefully examined when discussing "the mark on the forehead or hand" that marks people for doom or salvation:

Ez. Chapter 9 -- angels mark people for God's destruction of Jerusalem in 6th Century B.C.

Deut 6:8, Deut 11:18, Exodus 13:9 -- God's marks commanded to be upon the head and hands of his people to show their faithfulness

John's notions in his vision are related to Old Testament concepts -- not modern day conjectures that the MARK of the beast is to be thought of as a some computer product.

again, you are trying to evidence the claim that the mark of the beast has already happened by trying to guess as to what the mark is...which is among other things boring. You can answer the question or not but I don't need you to waste my time trying to convince me of what scripture isn't clear about and is not what you were asked to evidence.

Furthermore, if there is any "Church Age Dispensation" or "1948" or "Computerized mark" to be found in prophetic scripture, then Revelation 2-3 clearly demonstrates that Jesus knew nothing about it!

There is no way around it, the testimony in those Chapters either makes the Glorified Jesus entirely ignorant of the Long Church Age Dispensation, ignorant of 1948, and ignorant of any computerized mark that is inserted into one's hand, or renders those modern, speculative views entirely unscriptural.

My money is on the latter.

how does any of this evidence that the mark of the beast has already come? Seriously, this is disturbing that the claim would be made, I would ask for evidence to back up the claim and instead of even trying you go off some tangent trying to convince me of what scripture does not say...

 

[parousia70]

this isn't evidence the mark of the beast has already come...that is what I asked for..this is just more hashing over whether or not it is literal mark which I already stated my position is I don't know which is fine with me. again, you are trying to evidence the claim that the mark of the beast has already happened by trying to guess as to what the mark is...which is among other things boring.

Facts can be boring, I'll give you that... but I certainly have demonstrated that the Mark is in no way scripturally confined to our future... of course if you disagree you could always provide evidence that it IS confined to our future?

You can answer the question or not but I don't need you to waste my time trying to convince me of what scripture isn't clear about and is not what you were asked to evidence.

Well, how can you claim it hasn't happened if you admittedly aren't clear on what Scripture teaches that the mark is?

Seems to me one should first discern from Scripture what the mark is and what it isn't before one can ascertain whether or not it has come to pass, no?

how does any of this evidence that the mark of the beast has already come? Seriously, this is disturbing that the claim would be made, I would ask for evidence to back up the claim and instead of even trying you go off some tangent trying to convince me of what scripture does not say...

Perhaps then you would do us the favor of defining what you would accept as suitable evidence?

From Scripture alone? (my preference, since we can presumably agree on it's infalibility)
Citations from Church Scholars?
Non religious Historical accounts?

And please define the parameters with which you will accept the nature of such a "mark"... it seems you allow for some leeway there, yes?

I gave the scriptural Evidence by Citing Revelation 2-3 where Jesus promised to Come to the First Century Churches of Asia Minor. If 1948, Computer Chips, Helicopters, Nukes, The Church age Dispensaion were all actual Biblical Doctrines, then we would not Have the Glorified Christ From heaven promising His thief's coming would befall 1st century peoples.

That's simple process elimination.

 

[Endtime Survivors]

Facts can be boring, I'll give you that...

It isn't boredom which is the problem when it comes to interpreting the lesson behind the Mark prophecy. It's an issue of priorities, values, and loyalties. I am reminded of the saying, "It is difficult to convince a man to believe something, when his salary depends on him not believing it". What a perfect picture of the spiritual lesson behind the Mark.

But regarding the principle of "fact" you earlier said...

But, in fact, John didn't have computer chips in mind at all when he wrote the passage.

You're trying to give the impression that you stand on fact, but what you're really doing is giving a half truth. Of course John didn't have "computer chips in mind". They weren't even invented at that time, which means that even if he did witness a vision of the future where microchip implants were in use, he would not be able to say, "and then I, John, witnessed microchip implants". What a silly argument, to say that John didn't have microchip implants in mind, and even more silly to con would-be fools into believing this represents some kind of fact.

What he did understand was that people were using something related to their hand or forehead for the purpose of controlling the act of buying and selling. It is precisely because he did not recognize the method of the buying/selling (ie. what was on their hand or forehead) that he used an ambiguous word like "mark" which, rather than focusing on the physical shape (other than its location and its relationship to buying/selling), instead focused on the spiritual aspect of loyalty. These people were "marked" as loyal to the Beast's system.

People who trust God for their daily Bread are Marked as loyal to God. People who trust the Beast for their daily Bread will take his "mark". The physical thing on their hand (or forehead) which allows them to continue buying/selling is what demonstrates this loyalty, just as refusing to take the Mark is what demonstrates our loyalty to God.

 

[razzelflabben]

Facts can be boring, I'll give you that... but I certainly have demonstrated that the Mark is in no way scripturally confined to our future... of course if you disagree you could always provide evidence that it IS confined to our future?

as best I can tell your evidence didn't show when at all...which brings us right back where we started when I asked you to evidence your claim and you didn't do that. Now, I must be honest with you and tell you that when I ask someone to evidence their claim and they side step to talk about something else, I loss a certain amount of respect for that person. I would have even given you credit for trying to evidence your claim but failing, but simply talking about something else seems to me to be dishonest and that is my problem with your response. Just for the record, I am not calling you dishonest but rather your post is dishonest because it doesn't even attempt to evidence the claim you were asked to back up.

Well, how can you claim it hasn't happened if you admittedly aren't clear on what Scripture teaches that the mark is?

I didn't say whether it did or didn't, that is you reading into my post is not there. My claim is that all who are living in the HS will know when the time is upon us. IOW's the HS will teach us all that is necessary for us to know and all in His time.

Seems to me one should first discern from Scripture what the mark is and what it isn't before one can ascertain whether or not it has come to pass, no?

only to the point in which God in His wisdom deems necessary for us to know. Remember when I said that I was okay with knowing only that which God told us and that the rest could be unknown until He chooses to reveal it? That was stated because that is my stand on the matter. You would do well not to read into that what is not there so that you can have something to argue with me about.

Perhaps then you would do us the favor of defining what you would accept as suitable evidence?

heck, I would be thrilled if you attempted to address the claim you made about it having already happened...an attempt is good enough for me, I'm not one of these people on the threads that demands people to present specific words or phrases or sources or whatever...for me it is as easy as presenting something related to the claim in question...anything really. I prefer on this matter scripture but I would accept anything related to the claim in question.

From Scripture alone? (my preference, since we can presumably agree on it's infalibility)
Citations from Church Scholars?
Non religious Historical accounts?

And please define the parameters with which you will accept the nature of such a "mark"... it seems you allow for some leeway there, yes?

I gave the scriptural Evidence by Citing Revelation 2-3 where Jesus promised to Come to the First Century Churches of Asia Minor. If 1948, Computer Chips, Helicopters, Nukes, The Church age Dispensaion were all actual Biblical Doctrines, then we would not Have the Glorified Christ From heaven promising His thief's coming would befall 1st century peoples.

That's simple process elimination.

so, your claim then is that because of the doctrine of dispensationalism we can claim it to have already happened...what about the rest of what is listed in Rev. then? When did all that happen? Where in history do we see these things having already happened? Just making a claim isn't evidence, you have to provide more than that....

 

[Straightshot]

My comment

The mark of Satan's beast is for the coming tribulation period still pending

Preterism is the religion of the scoffer of the last days and has been around since the first century [2 Peter 3]

The mark of the beast will be taken by those who want to identify with him

And no one knows exactly what it is .... this can only be speculated

Those in the tribulation period that display this mark will be able to operate within the beast's economic system .... those that do not display it will not

The beast's system will be a cult religion which will be engage in the killing of billions of humans

 

[parousia70]

What he did understand was that people were using something related to their hand or forehead for the purpose of controlling the act of buying and selling. It is precisely because he did not recognize the method of the buying/selling (ie. what was on their hand or forehead) that he used an ambiguous word like "mark" which, rather than focusing on the physical shape (other than its location and its relationship to buying/selling), instead focused on the spiritual aspect of loyalty. These people were "marked" as loyal to the Beast's system.

Again, John knew precisely what he was claiming. He was Quoting the Old Testament and it's precedented usage of various "marks" that consigned people to either Blessings or Destruction... We have no scriptural instruction To interpret John's mark in absence of, and in polar opposite fashion to, the scriptural precedent set by the prophets before him.

 

[CrystalDragon]

There's evidence that Nero was the Beast. Revelation explicitly states at the beginning that it's addressed to the leaders of the churches at the time. It was meant as a message to the people of the day using heavy symbolism, otherwise John would have been beheaded.

It was meant for the day as a message of hope. Not about the far unknown uncertain future.

 

[parousia70]

as best I can tell your evidence didn't show when at all...which brings us right back where we started when I asked you to evidence your claim and you didn't do that. Now, I must be honest with you and tell you that when I ask someone to evidence their claim and they side step to talk about something else, I loss a certain amount of respect for that person. I would have even given you credit for trying to evidence your claim but failing, but simply talking about something else seems to me to be dishonest and that is my problem with your response. Just for the record, I am not calling you dishonest but rather your post is dishonest because it doesn't even attempt to evidence the claim you were asked to back up.

Any Scriptural reality that I can point to that eliminates the possibility of a Future to us Mark is most certainly evidence of it being past.

Though I understand you want more.

CORRELATING EVENTS IN JOHN'S TIME:

William Barclay's generic comments on The Mark:

* On every contract of buying or selling there was a charagma, a seal, and on the seal the name of the emperor and the date. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who worship the beast accept his authority. Note: this could also be the seal of ownership.

* All coinage had the head and inscription of the emperor stamped upon it, to show that it was his property [coins read: "Caesar is God"]. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who bear it are the property of the beast.

* When a man had burned his pinch of incense to Caesar, he was given a certificate to say he had done so. The mark of the beast may be the certificate of worship which a Christian could obtain only at the cost of denying his faith.


--------------------
Enforced Emperor Worship:

The Imperial-Cult worship of the Emperor as Lord was enforced throughout the entire empire. Roman officers governed this practice to make sure everyone was abiding by the law -- when one offered sacrifices to Caesar compliance certificates were issued that you had worshipped the Emperor. These certificates allowed business as usual within the Roman system. Failure to comply was an act of War against the Roman State.

-----------------------
DAVID CHILTON: On Economic Boycotts

The Jewish Leaders organized economic boycotts against those who refused to submit to Caesar as Lord, the leaders of the synagogues "forbidding all dealings with the excommunicated," and going so far as to put them to death.

---------------------

6-6-6: The Number of the Existing Caesar

The Hebrew form of "Caesar Nero" is Nrwn Qsr (pronounced "Neron Kaiser"). The value of the seven Hebrew letters is 50, 200, 6, 50, 100, 60, and 200, respectively.

...what about the rest of what is listed in Rev. then? When did all that happen?

"Shortly" after John was Given the Vision for the time was then "at Hand"

Where in history do we see these things having already happened? Just making a claim isn't evidence, you have to provide more than that....

In The Events leading up to and including the 70AD Destruction of Jerusalem.
This took place in entire parallel fashion to the Multiple "comings" of God witnessed throughout the Old testament:


Here's a few examples Where God Came Down to earth in Vengeance and Judgement, described in vivid detail by the prophets as Physical, Cataclysmic, earth shattering, universe collapsing events:

God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)


God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)


God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)


God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)


God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)


God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)


God Comes During the Maccabean Period
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)


These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others.

Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20). Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:33-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

 

[razzelflabben]

Any Scriptural reality that I can point to that eliminates the possibility of a Future to us Mark is most certainly evidence of it being past.

Though I understand you want more.

CORRELATING EVENTS IN JOHN'S TIME:

William Barclay's generic comments on The Mark:

* On every contract of buying or selling there was a charagma, a seal, and on the seal the name of the emperor and the date. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who worship the beast accept his authority. Note: this could also be the seal of ownership.

* All coinage had the head and inscription of the emperor stamped upon it, to show that it was his property [coins read: "Caesar is God"]. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who bear it are the property of the beast.

* When a man had burned his pinch of incense to Caesar, he was given a certificate to say he had done so. The mark of the beast may be the certificate of worship which a Christian could obtain only at the cost of denying his faith.


--------------------
Enforced Emperor Worship:

The Imperial-Cult worship of the Emperor as Lord was enforced throughout the entire empire. Roman officers governed this practice to make sure everyone was abiding by the law -- when one offered sacrifices to Caesar compliance certificates were issued that you had worshipped the Emperor. These certificates allowed business as usual within the Roman system. Failure to comply was an act of War against the Roman State.

-----------------------
DAVID CHILTON: On Economic Boycotts

The Jewish Leaders organized economic boycotts against those who refused to submit to Caesar as Lord, the leaders of the synagogues "forbidding all dealings with the excommunicated," and going so far as to put them to death.

---------------------

6-6-6: The Number of the Existing Caesar

The Hebrew form of "Caesar Nero" is Nrwn Qsr (pronounced "Neron Kaiser"). The value of the seven Hebrew letters is 50, 200, 6, 50, 100, 60, and 200, respectively.




"Shortly" after John was Given the Vision for the time was then "at Hand"



In The Events leading up to and including the 70AD Destruction of Jerusalem.
This took place in entire parallel fashion to the Multiple "comings" of God witnessed throughout the Old testament:


Here's a few examples Where God Came Down to earth in Vengeance and Judgement, described in vivid detail by the prophets as Physical, Cataclysmic, earth shattering, universe collapsing events:

God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)


God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)


God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)


God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)


God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)


God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)


God Comes During the Maccabean Period
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)


These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others.

Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20). Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:33-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

actually what I am saying is just because someone says, "cause I say so" doesn't make it fact. What we need is evidence beyond "cause I say so"

 

[razzelflabben]

Any Scriptural reality that I can point to that eliminates the possibility of a Future to us Mark is most certainly evidence of it being past.

Though I understand you want more.

CORRELATING EVENTS IN JOHN'S TIME:

William Barclay's generic comments on The Mark:

* On every contract of buying or selling there was a charagma, a seal, and on the seal the name of the emperor and the date. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who worship the beast accept his authority. Note: this could also be the seal of ownership.

* All coinage had the head and inscription of the emperor stamped upon it, to show that it was his property [coins read: "Caesar is God"]. If the mark is connected with this, it means that those who bear it are the property of the beast.

* When a man had burned his pinch of incense to Caesar, he was given a certificate to say he had done so. The mark of the beast may be the certificate of worship which a Christian could obtain only at the cost of denying his faith.


--------------------
Enforced Emperor Worship:

The Imperial-Cult worship of the Emperor as Lord was enforced throughout the entire empire. Roman officers governed this practice to make sure everyone was abiding by the law -- when one offered sacrifices to Caesar compliance certificates were issued that you had worshipped the Emperor. These certificates allowed business as usual within the Roman system. Failure to comply was an act of War against the Roman State.

-----------------------
DAVID CHILTON: On Economic Boycotts

The Jewish Leaders organized economic boycotts against those who refused to submit to Caesar as Lord, the leaders of the synagogues "forbidding all dealings with the excommunicated," and going so far as to put them to death.

---------------------

6-6-6: The Number of the Existing Caesar

The Hebrew form of "Caesar Nero" is Nrwn Qsr (pronounced "Neron Kaiser"). The value of the seven Hebrew letters is 50, 200, 6, 50, 100, 60, and 200, respectively.




"Shortly" after John was Given the Vision for the time was then "at Hand"



In The Events leading up to and including the 70AD Destruction of Jerusalem.
This took place in entire parallel fashion to the Multiple "comings" of God witnessed throughout the Old testament:


Here's a few examples Where God Came Down to earth in Vengeance and Judgement, described in vivid detail by the prophets as Physical, Cataclysmic, earth shattering, universe collapsing events:

God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)


God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)


God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)


God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)


God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)


God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)


God Comes During the Maccabean Period
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)


These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others.

Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20). Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:33-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).

please go on and show how this is more than what I said that every generation thinks they are in the end times thus it is written to stir us to prepare and watch in waiting for the coming of the Lord almighty....

 

[razzelflabben]

Honestly, I think the difference is that you see scripture and say...ah it must have already been fulfilled because x happened or y happened...whereas I see scripture and say we must wait for God to say it is fulfilled before we can claim it is fulfilled, thus we must watch and pray with preparation for the wedding feast of the Lamb.

 

[parousia70]

please go on and show how this is more than what I said that every generation thinks they are in the end times thus it is written to stir us to prepare and watch in waiting for the coming of the Lord almighty....

So your claim is that God has lead all previous generations to ours into believing a falsehood in order that they should live rightly?

 

[parousia70]

Honestly, I think the difference is that you see scripture and say...ah it must have already been fulfilled because x happened or y happened...whereas I see scripture and say we must wait for God to say it is fulfilled before we can claim it is fulfilled, thus we must watch and pray with preparation for the wedding feast of the Lamb.

So when Jesus said about the 2nd Temple:
“Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

You believe that has not been fulfilled?

 

[parousia70]

please go on and show how this is more than what I said that every generation thinks they are in the end times thus it is written to stir us to prepare and watch in waiting for the coming of the Lord almighty....

Why not address even one scripture I used? why not show me How and Why I'm wrong in my interpretation of them, and offer your alternative interpretation?

I must echo your 'loss of respect" for I too lose respect for counter arguments that avoid addressing the scriptures I cite in such a fashion.

 

[razzelflabben]

So your claim is that God has lead all previous generations to ours into believing a falsehood in order that they should live rightly?

how did you draw that conclusion from what I said? I said that every generation thinks they are living in the end times that is by design so that they are encouraged to watch and be prepared...now show how you think that equals deception and lies given we are talking about prophesies which by design do not give us every single detail but please do explain

 

[razzelflabben]

So when Jesus said about the 2nd Temple:
“Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

You believe that has not been fulfilled?

ah...what are you going on about? Seriously, I'm stumped as to what you do not understand about what I said, so instead of looking at each prophesy individually just cut to the chase and tell me what you problem with what I actually did say is not what you want me to have said. Even the early church thought they were living in the end times but here we are 2000 years later thinking we are living in the end times...the one constant, we are called to watch and pray with preparation...that is what I said.

 

[razzelflabben]

Why not address even one scripture I used? why not show me How and Why I'm wrong in my interpretation of them, and offer your alternative interpretation?

I must echo your 'loss of respect" for I too lose respect for counter arguments that avoid addressing the scriptures I cite in such a fashion.

I thought I addressed every passage directed at me...what one did I miss...I am usually very thorough and thoughtful about not missing something directed at me so as not to be rude...

 

[parousia70]

how did you draw that conclusion from what I said? I said that every generation thinks they are living in the end times that is by design so that they are encouraged to watch and be prepared...now show how you think that equals deception and lies

OK
"I said that every generation thinks they are living in the end times"

Though this was believed by every generation, it's can not be, nor was not factually correct for every generation.

"that is by design"

It is by design that every generation prior to ours believe something that could not be, not was not factually correct. It was a demonstrable falsehood.

"so that they are encouraged to watch and be prepared"

How is God encouraging folks to Watch and be prepared for an event He knew they were destined NEVER to see NOT deceptive??
And how is this deception not by design?