Changing your mind about prophecy

[nolidad]

I did not say anything about the false prophet being a high priest.

Did John the Baptist come with the same sort of spirit of Elijah (the prophet) had and when he baptized Jesus and the dove lite on Jesus ?

Was John the Baptist - the high priest ?

So why would you think the false prophet has to be a high priest?

John did not anoint Jesus as King! He baptized HIm to fulfill the law! Only a prophet or high priest can anoint a person to be king over Israel! They also will not crown a man who has not been a practicing jew for his life, nor a secular person , nor anyone who cannot prove their lineage to David (and then not through Jeconiah) You have pooh poohed these realities as inconsequential, but yet teh Bible calls them very important.

 

[Douggg]

Only a prophet or high priest can anoint a person to be king over Israel!

What high priest anointed Saul, David, Solomon king of Israel ? Those are the only three kings that there has even been over Israel as one nation.

They also will not crown a man who has not been a practicing jew for his life, nor a secular person , nor anyone who cannot prove their lineage to David (and then not through Jeconiah) You have pooh poohed these realities as inconsequential, but yet teh Bible calls them very important.

Yes, the person will be a Jew and his religion Judaism and be into Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism.

In Daniel 8, Gabriel calls it "craft".

22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The bible says regarding the rapture, the one taken, one left - no one know the day nor hour. You are claiming the day of the rapture is the start of the Day of the Lord. You are in conflict with the bible.

What are you talking about? Don't make claims without backing them up. Explain yourself.

 

[Douggg]

What are you talking about? Don't make claims without backing them up. Explain yourself.

You have misinterpreted 2Thessalonians2. It is the Day of the Lord that doesn't begin until the great falling away and the man of sin revealed by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.

The rapture is not timed to be on the beginning of that day.

The rapture, one is taken, one left, and takes place on a day and hour no-one knows, nor can predict - except for knowing the season, which is by the parable of the fig tree generation.

 

[nolidad]

You are one of the most rude people on this entire forum and you're saying this to me? You have no idea of how you come across, obviously.

No I don't. It is near impossible to tell a persons attitude just by looking at words on a screen. That is why I tell people I am not mad. I am very blunt, very direct and tend not to pull punches. I am not afraid to say I disagree with someone and then show them why! that doesn't make me mad or rude- just direct. Most people don't like directness, they accuse a direct blunt person of rudeness when it isn't.

Childish rants? That is something you are clearly familiar with, but I don't believe that is something you can say about me.

Well then to quote you:
"You have no idea of how you come across, obviously"

I don't believe in YOUR grammar rules. I believe you have it wrong. It would point back to the last individual that was focused on, which is the Messiah. It is THE PEOPLE of the prince that have the focus in the second part of verse 26, not the prince himself.

They are not "my rules" but the accepted taught rules of grammar universally.

2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

In verse 9 it says "even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan". The last individual mentioned before that is the Lord. So, your grammar rules would say that the Lord's coming is after the working of Satan. You need to re-evaluate your grammar rules.

sorry but there are other rules of Grammar (again not my rules) involved in this passage that show the him is specifically modified! That is not the case in Dan. 9. don't take my word for it, look these up your self.

I just showed otherwise. Unless you think that the Lord's coming is after the working of Satan?

all you showed is that you do not understand how personal pronouns are used and who they identify normally and then when modified.

And as you don't want to believe me, I shan't bore you with all that grammar stuff you will reject from me anyway.

It was confirmed during that time. The new covenant will be in effect until the end of the age when Christ returns. God has been saving Jews and Gentiles ever since the new covenant was established almost 2,000 years ago.

Then simply show me when these things declared are the terms of teh new covenant were actually established!

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


1. When were "those days" and when were "after those days"
2. Gods says here in the NEW COVENANT, HE WILL put his laws in the hearts of the house of Israel (which Ez. says is the reunited 12 tribes) verse 33
3. All the house of Israel won't need to be taught, for they ALL SHALL know God, from the least to the greatest!

So when did the terms of the New Covenant go into effect? These are the terms.

I have never said that the NEW COVENANT is not confirmed! It is. I have only argued that teh New covenant has not been fulfilled yet! Unless you can show me another passage that declares other terms of what God will do with the new covenant- these are the only terms of teh new Covenant God has made! Hebrews even confirms that!

The blood Jesus shed is the basis and the price paid to ratify the covenant. It is now being mediated for jesus is the mediator of teh new covenant. Using teh words in the Bible you cannot say teh New covenant is fulfilled.

Read the book of Hebrews. Have you never read it? By fulfilled, I mean that it was fully established by Christ. Of course, people are still being saved under the new covenant today.

then you have misused the word fulfilled. I think you mean is still in effect and ongoing. Which is my position for years and years! But it has not been brough tto its full effect.

You seem to be talking in terms of when will the last person be saved under the new covenant. Is that what you mean? You're not being clear. If that's what you mean then the last person who will be saved under the new covenant is whoever is saved last before the return of Christ.

NO! I am talking specifically what Scriptures unambiguously says! The terms of the New Covenant is that all Israel will have the Law written in their hearts and all Israel will know the Lord! this will take place in the last three days of the tribulation before the Lord returns when all the surviving nation of Israel gets saved!

Zechariah 13:8-9
King James Version

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

see some important words? It shall come to pass! 2/3 SHALL be cut off. 1/3 SHALL be left.

I WILL bring, and WILL refine, WILL try, they SHALL, I WILL hear, I will say, they SHALL say.

You think god means it?????? I do!!!!!!!

Say what? Now, you seem to be saying that the new covenant isn't yet in effect. If so, that is clearly wrong. Is that what you're saying? You are just not being clear.

Then show me when these terms of the new covenant went into effect?

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

You are doing teh same tap dance around ansering this simply question. Just show when the terms of the new covenant went into effect.

What? You clearly don't have a clue about the new covenant. The new covenant has everything to do with salvation being brought to the world through the blood of Christ. The new covenant is not a corporate thing, it was established for the salvation of individuals throughout the world to be saved. That is what the new covenant is all about. It made the old covenant and its animal sacrifices obsolete since those could not take away anyone's sins the way Christ's once for all sacrifice of the new covenant does.

so what is the New covenant God declared here :

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Is this a different New Covenant??

Also what covenant is this if it is not the New Covenant:

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

I am very familiar with Hebrews 8-12

Maybe you should bone up on romans 11:

Romans 11
King James Version

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Israel has fallen for a time so that salvation can come to the gentiles! BUT the Old Covenant has been fuflilled by Jesus and thus rendered old and obsolete! The Old Covenant was for Israel and the proelytes to Judaism.

God , in Jer. 31 declares He will make a New covenant with all Israel and declares what He will do. So show me that the new covenant you mention is about evangelsim, and gentiles andall that. Show me where that covenant is laid out in SCripture!

I can show you that God is saving gentiles and Jews now, but there will come a time when the full numbers of Gentiles will be saved, and then all Israel will be saved (the 1/3 of Zech) Just like God said in His Word. that is the New Covenant I am speaking to.

I await for you to show me this other new covenant. When did God make an Old Cvoenant with Gentiles as Gentiles BTW?

 

[nolidad]

The Day with the Lord is the symbolic phrase pointing to the literal time. Being literally with the Lord does not change this match up of symbolism and literal interpretation. Peter points out how God is longsuffering so a thousand years is equal to the length, or lengths of all history in 1000 year increments. Being here on earth not with the Lord is the literal side of the equation. Being with the Lord is the figurative future event not related to God's longsuffering. The fact it has been 1990 years does not define the scoffers. There were scoffers 500+ years after. Muhammad being one of them, no? Any time could have been the last days. Until the reality sinks in that 6000 years fits in with creation week, and the 4th commandment. Is it even coincidence that the end of the 4th 1000 years was the fullness of time. If those in the first century knew there was another 2000 years to go, would they have even stressed that point? Did they know but lied about it to make some "feel better"? I do not see God working to cater to human feelings. But God did know there would be 6 Days, and 6000 years, between two "Sundays". God created this reality for that express purpose.

Do people even know God started creation on a Sunday? The literal 8th Lord's Day the following Sunday God created the Garden of Eden, and instituted Adam and the church in Paradise. The battle of Jericho was from Sunday to Sunday. The week of the Cross was from Sunday to Sunday. The 7th Trumpet will be from Sunday to Sunday.

The church was born in the upper room at Pentecost!

YOu seem to forget what Jesus said:

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus is omniscient which makes HIm a whole heap smarter than us! He knows which words to use better than we do! After all He created Grammar and the rules governing grammar.

and sorry but your convoluted definition is convoluted. The phrase is simply a metaphor for God is very patient and longsuffering. It has no secret mystical meaning. Peter said a metaphor! Like we say Someone has the patience of Job!

Notice He said "Will Build" It is in the future active indicative. If the body of Christ (the church) began in the garden Jesus would have said " I will keep building my church". whatever church you think began in the garden, it is not the church of Jesus Christ.

 

[BABerean2]

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


1. When were "those days" and when were "after those days"
2. Gods says here in the NEW COVENANT, HE WILL put his laws in the hearts of the house of Israel (which Ez. says is the reunited 12 tribes) verse 33
3. All the house of Israel won't need to be taught, for they ALL SHALL know God, from the least to the greatest!

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


Apparently, the Holy Spirit can only teach those who are willing to look at what is plainly written in God's Word.

.

 

[jgr]

not that, but this...

"The carnalized racialized dispensational mind is incapable of recognizing that truth, and that the entirety of Scripture is about Him.

Not futurized fantasies and fallacies about Jews and Israel and antichrist and rapture and all other modernist manifestations of interpretation by hallucination."

Impossible to be over-dramatic regarding fantasies, fallacies, and hallucinations.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The church was born in the upper room at Pentecost!

YOu seem to forget what Jesus said:

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus is omniscient which makes HIm a whole heap smarter than us! He knows which words to use better than we do! After all He created Grammar and the rules governing grammar.

and sorry but your convoluted definition is convoluted. The phrase is simply a metaphor for God is very patient and longsuffering. It has no secret mystical meaning. Peter said a metaphor! Like we say Someone has the patience of Job!

Notice He said "Will Build" It is in the future active indicative. If the body of Christ (the church) began in the garden Jesus would have said " I will keep building my church". whatever church you think began in the garden, it is not the church of Jesus Christ.

Dispensationalists typically define the New Testament Church as a distinctive body which was birthed on the day of Pentecost. They view it as a completely separate entity to God’s people in the Old Testament.

What they miss is that the Church is not a New Testament innovation introduced by Christ but an ongoing spiritual organism that has contained the elect of God from the very beginning.

Whilst the Church has taken on a different form under the new covenant, in the same way as the development/change occurs between the caterpillar and the butterfly, the elect in the Old Testament and the elect in the New Testament are part of the same religious body.

The word “Church” is an imperfect translation of the Greek word ekklesia meaning ‘a called out assembly’. The word is found 116 times in the Greek New Testament, it is translated ‘church’ or ‘churches’ in every instant apart from 3 references where it is translated ‘assembly’.

The word ekklesia (Church) is found 77 times in the Greek Old Testament (the Septuagint or LXX) referring to Israel. This proves that the terms “Church” and “Israel” are synonymous and interchangeable. Christ and the Apostles employed and quoted extensively from the Septuagint during the early New Testament Church. The word is found 116 times in the New Testament. It was a term that they were very familiar with. The Septuagint was written about 200 years before Christ was born. While Dispensationalist conveniently portray the ekklesia as an Old Testament mystery and a New Testament phenomenon, Christ and the disciples were not so ignorant.

The ekklesia is found throughout the Greek Old Testament – the Septuagint (LXX): in Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, 1 Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Lamentations, Joel, and Micah. That is 16 of the Old Testament books, which is nearly half of them.

The Old Testament prophets lamented for centuries over the blindness and deafness of many among visible outward Israel (Isaiah 6:9–10, Jeremiah 5:21, and Ezekiel 12:2). This prepared the way for Christ and His liberating spiritual message to the nation. Jesus directed strong rebukes to those within natural Israel that professed but didn’t possess. He warned in Matthew 13:15-16: “For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.”

Many had eyes to see in the natural but they did not have eyes to see in the spiritual. They had ears to hear in the natural but they did not have ears to hear in the spiritual.

The saved saints under the Mosaic covenant were simply the assembly of God of that day. Also, the kingdom which was repeatedly promised to the remnant of Israel developed into the New Testament gathering. Elect Israel and the elect Church were/are the same entity. The word ekklesia conveys the idea of a common assembly in both eras. The New Testament ekklesia is simply an extension of the Old Testament ekklesia (qâhâl or ‛êdâh), albeit it has taken on a different form under the new covenant.

Mirroring the process that a caterpillar undergoes developing into the maturity and beauty of a colorful butterfly, the Old Testament Church underwent a significant metamorphic change in the New Testament, progressing into the current Spirit-filled international New Testament Church. The ekklesia essentially took on wings! That is not to say that we can separate the elect of God in either dispensation or view them as two different entities. Rather, we must view both as the same organic entity. Just because Old Testament Israel and the New Testament Church carry different names and possess a different outward appearance and scope of movement does not negate the fact they are the same overall entity.

Ray Porter highlights a notable difference with the New Testament ekklesia compared to its old covenant counterpart. He shows that it is found in the fact that it is “united not on the basis of a shared culture, language, or previous religious loyalties, but … [is] united around the Messiah” (The Church Local, Wider, and Universal).

 

[GooFYone]

Hi all. I recently watched a video about a person who had changed his mind regarding his stance on pre-trib rapture. The video made some interesting points about just how difficult it is to change the way we perceive important, spiritual truths, especially when that change requires us to face difficult challenges.

The video is about 12 minutes long and I'd like to hear what others think.

Your title is junk.
Please don’t force your “change your mind” junk on me.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You have misinterpreted 2Thessalonians2. It is the Day of the Lord that doesn't begin until the great falling away and the man of sin revealed by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.

The rapture is not timed to be on the beginning of that day.

I believe you need to look at the passage more carefully.

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

First, look at verse 1. Would you agree that "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and...our gathering together unto Him" is a reference to the rapture? If not, then you're off the rails already. It clearly is a reference to the rapture as it lines up perfectly with 1 Thess 4:13-18 which also mentions a gathering to Him at His coming.

Then in verse 2 Paul told the Thessalonians he was addressing to not believe anyone trying to say that "the day of Christ", which is the day of the coming of Jesus and our gathering to Him that he just mentioned in verse 1, was at hand at that time already.

In verse 3 he explained why it was not yet at hand because a falling away and the man of sin had to be revealed first before His coming and our gathering to Him. Very simple. Yet, you don't accept the obvious here. Why? The fact that he's referring to the day of the rapture is made clear from off the bat in verse 1, so why are you missing that the falling away and man of sin being revealed has to happen first before the rapture?

What you seem to be missing here is that the reference to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering unto Him in verse 1, the day of Christ in verse 2, and "that day" in verse 3 are all referring to the same day and event, which is our gathering (being caught up) to Jesus at His second coming.

The rapture, one is taken, one left, and takes place on a day and hour no-one knows, nor can predict - except for knowing the season, which is by the parable of the fig tree generation.

Right. What is your point? Even if we were able to pinpoint the time that the falling away occurs (how can we do that exactly?), we still won't know the day or hour of His coming and our gathering to Him. We would just know that it would be soon (but not exactly how soon).

So, how exactly does what you're saying here refute my claim that Paul said the falling away has to occur before the rapture? It doesn't.

 

[Timtofly]

It is very unfortunate that the translators decided to put a chapter break between the end of 1 Thess 4 and beginning of 1 Thess 5. That was a mistake on their part. It makes some people think that 1 Thess 5 is about an entirely different event than 1 Thess 4:13-18, but it is not. All one has to do is read 2 Thess 1:7-10 to see that 1 Thess 4:13-5:6 is the same event, namely the second coming of Christ, and it all will happen on the same day when He returns.

Wow!!

How about Revelation 19 and 20?

Double standard?

 

[John Helpher]

Your title is junk.
Please don’t force your “change your mind” junk on me.

Hi Goofy. What about the titles makes you feel forced?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No I don't. It is near impossible to tell a persons attitude just by looking at words on a screen. That is why I tell people I am not mad. I am very blunt, very direct and tend not to pull punches. I am not afraid to say I disagree with someone and then show them why! that doesn't make me mad or rude- just direct. Most people don't like directness, they accuse a direct blunt person of rudeness when it isn't.

Fine, I'll just take your word for it. So, I'm going to talk to you the same way you are talking to me and I will assume you won't mind since I will be talking to you in your own language.

sorry but there are other rules of Grammar (again not my rules) involved in this passage that show the him is specifically modified! That is not the case in Dan. 9. don't take my word for it, look these up your self.

Show me these grammar rules then that should be used to interpret 2 Thess 2:8-9. I think you're just making this up.

all you showed is that you do not understand how personal pronouns are used and who they identify normally and then when modified.

And as you don't want to believe me, I shan't bore you with all that grammar stuff you will reject from me anyway.

I believe you know that you can't and this is the excuse you came up with to not show it to me. We need to use spiritual discernment to interpret scripture, not made up grammar rules.

Then simply show me when these things declared are the terms of teh new covenant were actually established!

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

How many times do I have to tell you to just read Hebrews 8-10? The entire passage is quoted in Hebrews 8:6-13. What does that tell you? Can you not accept what is written there? Does everything have to be spelled out to you for something to be fulfilled? If the NT says something is fulfilled, then it is. Period. You're probably one of those who doesn't accept that the OT prophecy in Malachi 4 about Elijah was fulfilled by John the Baptist even though the NT says so. Am I right?

1. When were "those days" and when were "after those days"

Those days were when Jesus sacrificed Himself on the cross and rose again from the dead 3 days later. That is what established the new covenant.

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

2 Cor 3:6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

2. Gods says here in the NEW COVENANT, HE WILL put his laws in the hearts of the house of Israel (which Ez. says is the reunited 12 tribes) verse 33

The Holy Spirit puts His laws in the hearts of His people.

See, this is the problem. You don't recognize that the promises God made in the Old Testament times have been extended to not just Israel but to the whole world. The Israel of God consists of both Jew and Gentile believers in one body. For they are not all Israel (the Israel of God) who are of Israel (national Israel) because it is the children of promise who are counted as the children of God and who are the spiritual seed of Abraham. That is what Paul taught in Romans 9:6-8 and in Galatians 3 he taught that the promises were to Abraham's seed, which is Christ (Gal 3:16) and all who belong to Christ (Gal 3:26-29). What was a mystery in OT times was revealed in the NT. God's covenants and promises to Israel were to be applied to all who believe in Christ, including both Jews and Gentiles.

This is what the New Testament scripture teach repeatedly, but literalists like yourself have a lot of trouble accepting that. But, you need to because the New Testament is the truth. It illuminates the mysteries hidden in the Old Testament.

3. All the house of Israel won't need to be taught, for they ALL SHALL know God, from the least to the greatest!

So when did the terms of the New Covenant go into effect? These are the terms.

I have never said that the NEW COVENANT is not confirmed! It is.

What is the difference between the new covenant being confirmed and going into effect? Do you see in Hebrews 8:6-13 that it says the new covenant was established on better promises than the old covenant? You are taking the prophecy a bit too literally.

I have only argued that teh New covenant has not been fulfilled yet! Unless you can show me another passage that declares other terms of what God will do with the new covenant- these are the only terms of teh new Covenant God has made! Hebrews even confirms that!

What does it mean to you for the new covenant to be fulfilled? What has to happen? The book of Hebrews makes it clear that the new covenant is all about the sacrifice of Jesus making salvation available to people by His blood. So, the fulfillment of that is people being saved by His blood throughout the New Testament time period.

The blood Jesus shed is the basis and the price paid to ratify the covenant. It is now being mediated for jesus is the mediator of teh new covenant. Using teh words in the Bible you cannot say teh New covenant is fulfilled.

Again, what do you mean exactly? It is still in effect and people are continually being saved under the new covenant, so I guess in that sense it hasn't been completely fulfilled. In that sense it will be completely fulfilled once the last person has been saved.

then you have misused the word fulfilled. I think you mean is still in effect and ongoing. Which is my position for years and years!

Okay. Are we just getting lost in semantics here? At what point do you think it will be fulfilled?

NO! I am talking specifically what Scriptures unambiguously says! The terms of the New Covenant is that all Israel will have the Law written in their hearts and all Israel will know the Lord!

You need to read passages like Romans 9:6-8, Galatians 3:26-29 and Galatians 6:14-16 to find out the identity of all Israel. The New Testament repeatedly indicates that one's nationality has nothing to do with salvation, but rather it has to do with belonging to Christ. He shed His blood for all people so that all people, whether Jew or Gentile, can be saved. You think God has a separate plan for Jews and Gentiles while the New Testament repeatedly says that He has the same plan for both Jew and Gentile. You need to allow the New Testament to interpret the Old Testament for you instead of the other way around.

I am very familiar with Hebrews 8-12

You don't seem to have any understanding whatsoever of what is taught in Hebrews 8-12. Anyone can read it. But, do you understand it? It seems that you don't understand it even a little bit.

You make God out to be a respecter of persons in regards to salvation, but scripture repeatedly says that He is not.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

You think that God will do something special one day for Israel that He won't do for any other nation in regards to salvation. But that would make Him out to be a respecter of persons, which means He would favor one nation over others for salvation. That goes against His character. Salvation is available to all people regardless of nationality or race and it is not withheld from anyone.

Romans 11 has been terribly misunderstood by many, including you. God never caused anyone to not believe in Christ, but He allowed some of them (not all, there was a remnant who believed) so that salvation could go to the Gentiles, who in turn would make the Jews jealous and want to be saved as well.

Those who were cut off from the olive tree had the opportunity to be grafted back on if they put their faith in Christ. People think that Romans 11 is saying that they lost their opportunity to be saved. Not so.

Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

This passage indicates that though they were broken off because of unbelief, they still could be grafted in "if they abide not still in unbelief". He was talking about the people who were cut off being able to be grafted in again if they didn't abide in unbelief. He wasn't talking about people in the distant future being grafted in again. That's what many, like you, miss. Salvation is for individuals who believe, not nations. Each individual, Jew or Gentile, who believes gets grafted in and each individual, Jew or Gentile, gets cut off for unbelief. It's been that way for almost the past 2,000 years.

Read this:

Romans 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This is speaking of those who were alive at that time. The Gentiles obtained mercy through their past unbelief up until that time. The Israelites who did not believe at that time could also obtain mercy through their unbelief. Remember earlier in Romans 11 verse 11 that Paul said "through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy". The Israelites who were cut off of the olive tree at the time weren't cut off forever, but had the opportunity to be grafted in through faith just like the Gentiles. It was God's intention for the Gentile believers to provoke the Jews to jealousy so that they too would want to believe and be saved.

God concluded all Jews and Gentiles in unbelief so that He could have mercy on them all. To think that He wasn't interested in having mercy on some of those who didn't believe back then or on any who haven't believed since then is to miss Paul's entire point and also contradicts the fact that God wants to have mercy on all people and always has.

You postpone the salvation of Israel or limit it until a later time, but God does not. That contradicts what Paul said in Romans 11:30-32. God has wanted to have mercy on all of them for the past almost 2,000 years through faith in His Son, but they have to put their faith in Him just like the Gentiles do. This is each person's responsibility.

The Israel of which all get saved (Rom 11:26) is the Israel Paul wrote about in Romans 9:6-8. It is the Israel of which all are the children of God and the children of the promise, which he showed in Galatians 3:26-29 are those who have faith in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, and belong to Christ and are counted as Abraham's spiritual seed.

 

[Douggg]

Then in verse 2 Paul told the Thessalonians he was addressing to not believe anyone trying to say that "the day of Christ", which is the day of the coming of Jesus and our gathering to Him that he just mentioned in verse 1, was at hand at that time already.

Christ is Lord. Day of Christ is just another way of saying the Day of the Lord.

Your assumption is wrong that the rapture takes place on the Day of the Lord.

Instead it is talking about (1) the gathering unto Him, the rapture and (2) the Day of the Lord when the wrath of God takes place. Two separate items. One the rapture in order to avoid the other, the Day of the Lord.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Wow!!

How about Revelation 19 and 20?

Double standard?

Not at all. 1 Thess 4 and 5 are speaking of the same event, the second coming of Christ, and it talks about what happens to both believers (caught up to meet the Lord in the air) and unbelievers (sudden destruction from which they will not escape) on that day.

Revelation 19 speaks of the day Christ returns while Revelation 20 speaks of the time when Christ reigns, which has been since His first coming and will be up until His second coming.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Christ is Lord. Day of Christ is just another way of saying the Day of the Lord.

Your assumption is wrong that the rapture takes place on the Day of the Lord.

Instead it is talking about (1) the gathering unto Him, the rapture and (2) the Day of the Lord when the wrath of God takes place. Two separate items. One the rapture in order to avoid the other, the Day of the Lord.

You are separating what Paul did not separate. He indicated that they occur on the same day. You are not accepting what Paul taught. He referenced the day of Christ synonymously with that day when Christ comes and we are gathered to Him. It's very clear. You doctrinal bias is clouding your vision.

 

[GooFYone]

Hi Goofy. What about the titles makes you feel forced?

Prophecy is already prophecy. Jopher

 

[John Helpher]

Prophecy is already prophecy.

Ahh glad to know. Hey, did you know water is wet?

 

[Douggg]

You are separating what Paul did not separate. He indicated that they occur on the same day. You are not accepting what Paul taught. He referenced the day of Christ synonymously with that day when Christ comes and we are gathered to Him. It's very clear. You doctrinal bias is clouding your vision.

The Thessalonians were troubled by rumors that the Day of the Lord had begun. So obviously they were not looking forward to the Day of the Lord beginning - nor as being the day that the rapture takes place.

Paul relieved their worries by saying the Day of the Lord had not begun and will not begin until there is the great falling away and the man of sin be revealed by his going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.