Changing your mind about prophecy

[Douggg]

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

This present heaven and earth will be destroyed right before the Great White Throne Judgement after the 1000 years have expired.

Revelaiton 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You have it backwards, what it is telling you in Revelation 12:9. It is telling you the beast in the bottomless pit in Revelation 17:8a is the garden of eden serpent. It is not Satan himself in the bottomless pit, but the most cunning of the all the beasts.

What are you talking about exactly? Who was the garden of Eden serpent, if not Satan?

God is the One who does bring the person back to life, in Isaiah 14:18-20.

That passage says no such thing. Not even close. You are trying to make scripture say whatever you want it to say. Why would God want to resurrect some evil person from long ago? That's complete nonsense. You can't be taken seriously with this stuff.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

This present heaven and earth will be destroyed right before the Great White Throne Judgement after the 1000 years have expired.

Revelaiton 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Premils and Amils all agree with this. You know that, right?

I asked if you would show your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:3-7 and you only showed your interpretation of verse 7. Why? Can you please tell me how you interpret 2 Peter 3:3-7?

What do you think was Peter's reason for mentioning the scoffers mocking the promise of the Lord's coming in verses 3 and 4? How do you think the rest of 2 Peter 3 relates to that?

 

[Douggg]

What are you talking about exactly? Who was the garden of Eden serpent, if not Satan?

The serpent. Who do you think named the serpent the serpent?

Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Genesis 1:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The serpent was physically changed for his part in getting Adam and Eve to sin.

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Satan was not cusred to slither on his belly. That original serpent beast eventually died and it's spirit ended up in the bottomless pit.

 

[Douggg]

That passage says no such thing. Not even close. You are trying to make scripture say whatever you want it to say. Why would God want to resurrect some evil person from long ago? That's complete nonsense. You can't be taken seriously with this stuff.

You are confused. No-one is being resurrected from long ago in Isaiah 14:18-20. The person has not even been killed yet.

The person is killed, his soul in hell a few days. The God then casts his soul out of hell, his body not even buried yet, still in the casket. And the person's lifeless body comes back to life as the whole world sees it happen.

God bringing the person back to life - is the strong delusion that God sends to them who will believe the Antichrist's claim of having achieved God-hood.

 

[BABerean2]

You have it backwards, what it is telling you in Revelation 12:9. It is telling you the beast in the bottomless pit in Revelation 17:8a is the garden of eden serpent. It is not Satan himself in the bottomless pit, but the most cunning of the all the beasts.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

.

 

[Douggg]

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

.

It is indicating that it is the person, possessed by the serpent spirit, who will make war against them - and over come the two witnesses.

In Revelation 13, afterwards, because he kills the two witnesses, the world says 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

 

[BABerean2]

It is indicating that it is the person, possessed by the serpent spirit, who will make war against them - and over come the two witnesses.

In Revelation 13, afterwards, because he kills the two witnesses, the world says 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Where in the world did you come up with the "serpent spirit" term?

Did it come from the same place as your interpretation of Daniel 9:27?


.

 

[Douggg]

Where in the world did you come up with the "serpent spirit" term?

Did it come from the same place as your interpretation of Daniel 9:27?


.

The beast in the bottomless pit does not have a physical body, but is a disembodied spirit.

UNCLEAN SPIRIT IN THE BIBLE

 

[jgr]

It's from Daniel 7:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

A week can be a 7 day period or a 7 year period. The context here makes it clear that it's referring to a 7 year period. The verse does not specifically mention a rebuilt temple, but sacrifices can only happen in the temple. In order for sacrifices to cease, there needs to be a temple in which they are happening.

For the flesh Jews, the temple is the epitome of their religion; they desperately want their temple back. They are not followers of Jesus and so have not moved on to Jesus' new way where the body of believers is the true temple.

I believe this prophecy is referring to two different people at the same time, but in two very different ways. It is obviously referring to Jesus as he is the messiah, but Jesus will not overspread abominations. It is the AntiChrist (or Beast) who will do that. This person, the Beast, will make an agreement for 7 years (i.e. 1 week) most likely with the Jews to rebuild their temple (and in return they'll support his rise to political dominance, along with the rest of the world). But in the middle of this 7 year period, he reneges on this agreement and performs some shocking act to blaspheme the temple.

On the other hand, Jesus makes an agreement for this final, 7 year period to build his temple, a spiritual gathering of his body, i.e. the 144k mentioned in Revelation 14. This concept of the physical vs the spiritual is a common theme all throughout Jesus' teachings and an Angel in the Revelation even has a shot at this newly rebuilt temple, "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." The "great city" is Jerusalem, which is only important because it is where the temple is (or should be) located. The people's stubborn insistence on going back to a physical temple makes this once Holy City spiritually desolate.



Neither do I. Look carefully at what I said; the first 3.5 years will be a kind of fake peace. Then, in the "middle of the week" the AC will renege on his agreement and start his persecution of the saints, the 42 months, 1,260 days, etc. This second half of the 7 year period will be the Great Tribulation; 3.5 years only.

The 7th (and last) trumpet of this Great Tribulation is the return (and rapture) of Jesus for his followers.



I'm not saying Jesus didn't establish the NT, putting an end to sacrifices etc. I'm not saying the rebuilt temple is a good thing; I'm saying it's the opposite, it is an abomination precisely because of Jesus' sacrifice. Rebuilding the temple is a slap in the face of a God who already sacrificed himself for us, which is partly why I believe it will be in the interest of the AC to rebuild it. On the surface it will bring political clout to him; he will be seen as a brilliant peacemaker, but underneath I believe he will take some sadistic joy in knowing that the physical temple is an affront to Jesus' sacrifice.

The 70 weeks were meant for Daniel's people (i.e. the Children of Israel) and started at the commencement of the rebuilding of the 2nd temple. 69 of those "weeks" (or 463 years) later culminated in the death of Jesus. There should have been one, final, 7 year period after that, but as Jesus was "cut off", so too were God's people as a visible, united organization. As your screen name suggests, the flesh Jews were finished as God's people. The veil was torn, making the physical temple irrelevant; God now lives in the body of believers as his temple.

That final, 7 year period was put on hold. This does not invalidate Jesus' sacrifice at all; it's just an issue of timing. No group or organization on the earth can claim to be the Kingdom of Heaven, but, a time is coming when Jesus will unite 144k of his faithful followers into 12 tribes for one, final week (7 year period) in which they really will be the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, as a witness to the world during the Great Tribulation (which will be the second half of this 7 year period).



The onset of this destruction will be sudden. It will be sudden because they're not paying attention. It does not make sense for the world to say, "peace and safety" after its just been ravished by 3.5 years of Great Tribulation, "such as the world has never seen". This period of time must be immediately before the Great Tribulation.

As you've observed, any rebuilt temple would be an abomination.

The historical account below leaves no doubt as to the consequences of any rebuilding attempt.

Abomination it was then, and abomination it shall ever be.

Sozomen (ca. A.D.375-447)
"Ecclesiastical History"
Book V, Chapter XXII

Though the emperor [Julian the Apostate] hated and opressed the Christians, he manifested benevolence and humanity towards the Jews. He wrote to the Jewish patriarchs and leaders, as well as to the people, requesting them to pray for him, and for the prosperity of the empire. In taking this step he was not actuated, I am convinced, by any respect for their religion; for he was aware that it is, so to speak, the mother of the Christian religion, and he knew that both religions rest upon the authority of the patriarchs and the prophets; but he thought to grieve the Christians by favoring the Jews, who are their most inveterate enemies. But perhaps he also calculated upon persuading the Jews to embrace paganism and sacrifices; for they were only acquainted with the mere letter of Scripture, and could not, like the Christians and a few of the wisest among the Hebrews, discern the hidden meaning.

Events proved that this was his real motive; for he sent for some of the chiefs of the race and exhorted them to return to the observance of the laws of Moses and the customs of their fathers. On their replying that because the temple in Jerusalem was overturned, it was neither lawful nor ancestral to do this in another place than the metropolis out of which they had been cast, he gave them public money, commanded them to rebuild the temple, and to practice the cult similar to that of their ancestors, by sacrificing after the ancient way. The Jews entered upon the undertaking, without reflecting that, according to the prediction of the holy prophets, it could not be accomplished. They sought for the most skillful artisans, collected materials, cleared the ground, and entered so earnestly upon the task, that even the women carried heaps of earth, and brought their necklaces and other female ornaments towards defraying the expense. The emperor, the other pagans, and all the Jews, regarded every other undertaking as secondary in importance to this. Although the pagans were not well-disposed towards the Jews, yet they assisted them in this enterprise, because they reckoned upon its ultimate success, and hoped by this means to falsify the prophecies of Christ. Besides this motive, the Jews themselves were impelled by the consideration that the time had arrived for rebuilding their temple. When they had removed the ruins of the former building, they dug up the ground and cleared away its foundation; it is said that on the following day when they were about to lay the first foundation, a great earthquake occurred, and by the violent agitation of the earth, stones were thrown up from the depths, by which those of the Jews who were engaged in the work were wounded, as likewise those who were merely looking on. The houses and public porticos, near the site of the temple, in which they had diverted themselves, were suddenly thrown down; many were caught thereby, some perished immediately, others were found half dead and mutilated of hands or legs, others were injured in other parts of the body. When God caused the earthquake to cease, the workmen who survived again returned to their task, partly because such was the edict of the emperor, and partly because they were themselves interested in the undertaking. Men often, in endeavoring to gratify their own passions, seek what is injurious to them, reject what would be truly advantageous, and are deluded-by the idea that nothing is really useful except what is agreeable to them. When once led astray by this error, they are no longer able to act in a manner conducive to their own interests, or to take warning by the calamities which are visited upon them.

The Jews, I believe, were just in this state; for, instead of regarding this unexpected earthquake as a manifest indication that God was opposed to the re-erection of their temple, they proceeded to recommence the work. But all parties relate, that they had scarcely returned to the undertaking, when fire burst suddenly from the foundations of the temple, and consumed several of the workmen.

This fact is fearlessly stated, and believed by all; the only discrepancy in the narrative is that some maintain that flame burst from the interior of the temple, as the workmen were striving to force an entrance, while others say that the fire proceeded directly from the earth. In whichever way the phenomenon might have occurred, it is equally wonderful. A more tangible and still more extraordinary prodigy ensued; suddenly the sign of the cross appeared spontaneously on the garments of the persons engaged in the undertaking. These crosses were disposed like stars, and appeared the work of art. Many were hence led to confess that Christ is God, and that the rebuilding of the temple was not pleasing to Him; others presented themselves in the church, were initiated, and besought Christ, with hymns and supplications, to pardon their transgression. If any one does not feel disposed to believe my narrative, let him go and be convinced by those who heard the facts I have related from the eyewitnesses of them, for they are still alive. Let him inquire, also, of the Jews and pagans who left the work in an incomplete state, or who, to speak more accurately, were able to commence it.

 

[Timtofly]

Sorry, but would you mind clarifying how you think this relates to what I was saying?

Satan declares the end to those who claim to be of Christ at that time. No one can practice Christianity and the Atonement of the Cross.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Nope. That's a fairy tale that can't be supported by scripture. The one who confirms the covenant is clearly referring to the Messiah, who was the last individual who was focused on before Daniel 9:27. And, it's clear that Jesus fulfilled everything listed in Daniel 9:24 long ago.

SJ
Douggg's theology is one of the positions of the Jesuit teaching and that of the RCC it is counter reformation teaching (Jesuit Futurism) and is used to fulfill prophecy concerning the harlot and her daughters, which he does not address that I have seen over the years of reading his posts, but I could be wrong as they have been many posts by him.

Revelation 17 King James Version (KJV)
1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:


5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth. (The "Dominus Iesus" faith declaration says, “It must be always clear that the one, holy, catholic and apostolic universal church is not the sister, but the mother of all the churches.”ii)

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration

harlot of Babylon
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reformation view

Historicist interpreters commonly used the phrase "harlot of Babylon" to refer to the Catholic Church. Reformation writers Martin Luther (1483–1546, author of On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church), John Calvin (1509–1564), and John Knox (1510–1572, author of The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstruous Regiment of Women) taught this association.[36][37]

Most early Protestant Reformers believed, and the modern Seventh-day Adventist Church teaches, that in Bible prophecy a woman represents a church.[38][39] "I have likened the daughter of Zion to a lovely and delicate woman." (Jeremiah 6:2 nkjv) A harlot, it is argued, is representative of a church that has been unfaithful:


"Woman, Pure True Church Jeremiah 6:2; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:23-27
Woman, Corrupt Apostate church Ezk. 16:15-58; 23:2-21; Hos. 2:5; 3:1; Rev. 14:4"
Bible Symbols Chart

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You are confused. No-one is being resurrected from long ago in Isaiah 14:18-20. The person has not even been killed yet.

In fairness, it's easy to get confused by your nonsensical, unbiblical beliefs.

The person is killed, his soul in hell a few days. The God then casts his soul out of hell, his body not even buried yet, still in the casket. And the person's lifeless body comes back to life as the whole world sees it happen.

God bringing the person back to life - is the strong delusion that God sends to them who will believe the Antichrist's claim of having achieved God-hood.

Where does scripture teach that? It's not in Isaiah 14, so where? You're making things up to support your doctrine. That's not good.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The serpent. Who do you think named the serpent the serpent?

Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Genesis 1:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The serpent was physically changed for his part in getting Adam and Eve to sin.

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Satan was not cusred to slither on his belly. That original serpent beast eventually died and it's spirit ended up in the bottomless pit.

You have no discernment. The serpent was Satan.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Genesis 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Do you not even recognize that this passage is talking about the enmity between Satan and his seed (his angels and those who follow after him) and the woman and her seed (Christ - Rev 12:5 - and those who "have the testimony of Jesus Christ" - Rev 12:17)?

Christ crushed Satan's head with his death on the cross. Satan could merely bruise his heel because it didn't stop Christ from defeating him. Christ's resurrection 3 days later was the proof that He had defeated Satan.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

 

[John Helpher]

I agree that there needs to be a temple for sacrifices to cease because that's where the sacrifices were performed. But, it's not speaking of a rebuilt temple. Which temple was standing when the Messiah was cut off? The second temple. And it was that temple standing at the time that Jesus declared to be desolate even before His death.

You say that it was the middle of this 7 year period when Jesus was killed, but then 3.5 years later everything should have been fixed up and finished. Look again at what the prophecy says about the completion of this time:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

The end of this 70 weeks marks everlasting righteousness; that is the Kingdom of Heaven of Earth. Is that what happened 3.5 years after Jesus was killed? No way! His followers were hunted, persecuted, and killed. The world is incredibly evil at the moment.

Notice also that in Revelation 10 there is a special angel who, at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, lifts his hand to Heaven and swears that there will be time no more. I believe this is a reference to the completion of the final 7 years of Daniel's prophecy, the one that brings in everlasting righteousness. Compare this with the description of the 7th trumpet from Revelation 11:15,

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

This sounds a lot like the everlasting righteousness mentioned at the end of the 70th week in Daniel's prophecy.

I don't take any of those time periods to be literal. The number 7 in prophetic scripture is a number representing completeness. So, a reference to 42 months, 1260 days is referring not to all time, but a certain period of time in history, which is the New Testament time period, in my opinion.

There's a lot of reference to this period of 3.5 years. As you've noted, the 2 witnesses are predicted to preach for that period of time. But also, God's people are given miraculous protection (referred to as the "wilderness", whatever that might be), for the same period of time, 1,260 days (Revelation 12:14).

Also, in Revelation 11:2, an angel tells John that the "Holy City" will be trod under foot 42 months; that's 1,260 days. We both agree that God isn't concerned for buildings; this is a reference to the Great Tribulation and the saints being stepped on.

Daniel 7:25 Also uses this same period of time, 1260 days in which the Beast will make war with the saints and prevail against them.

Daniel 8:13-14 also lists a period of 2300 days. A year is 2,520 days. If you subtract these two numbers you get a period of 220 days, presumably the time required to rebuild the 3rd temple, since the angels are talking about sacrifices which can only happen in the temple.

Daniel 12:11 makes reference to this same period of time, except this reference tacks on an extra 30 days. Notice what the angel says:

"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days."

Just like Daniel 9:27, the sacrifices will be caused to cease (or taken away) and the abomination of desolation set up. Presumably this 30 day discrepancy is the time it will take for the AC to set up whatever this abomination is. Remember that Jesus also mentioned this same prophecy, even referencing Daniel by name and went on to describe the Great Tribulation, such as was never seen nor will ever be seen again (Matthew 24:15-21).

He says, "when you see this abomination, flee because the Great Tribulation is about to begin". Daniel 9 says this abomination will happen in the middle of a week; 3.5 years. Jesus says this abomination marks the start of the great tribulation, which Daniel 7 and Revelation 11, and 12 concur with, 1260 days or half a 7-year period of war against the saints, trodding under foot, and protect in the wilderness.

This is the final 7 year period of Daniel's prophecy, half of which is the Great Tribulation.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

SJ
Douggg's theology is one of the positions of the Jesuit teaching and that of the RCC it is counter reformation teaching (Jesuit Futurism) and is used to fulfill prophecy concerning the harlot and her daughters, which he does not address that I have seen over the years of reading his posts, but I could be wrong as they have been many posts by him.

Revelation 17 King James Version (KJV)
1And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:


5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth. (The "Dominus Iesus" faith declaration says, “It must be always clear that the one, holy, catholic and apostolic universal church is not the sister, but the mother of all the churches.”ii)

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration

harlot of Babylon
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reformation view

Historicist interpreters commonly used the phrase "harlot of Babylon" to refer to the Catholic Church. Reformation writers Martin Luther (1483–1546, author of On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church), John Calvin (1509–1564), and John Knox (1510–1572, author of The First Blast of the Trumpet Against the Monstruous Regiment of Women) taught this association.[36][37]

Most early Protestant Reformers believed, and the modern Seventh-day Adventist Church teaches, that in Bible prophecy a woman represents a church.[38][39] "I have likened the daughter of Zion to a lovely and delicate woman." (Jeremiah 6:2 nkjv) A harlot, it is argued, is representative of a church that has been unfaithful:


"Woman, Pure True Church Jeremiah 6:2; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:23-27
Woman, Corrupt Apostate church Ezk. 16:15-58; 23:2-21; Hos. 2:5; 3:1; Rev. 14:4"
Bible Symbols Chart

Hi OHC. Yes, I was already aware of all this, but thanks for sharing it, anyway. I believe your view is limiting the scope of the harlot Babylon a bit too much, though. I don't believe it refers to the RCC, though I can see why it could be interpreted that way as there are definitely a lot of things wrong with the RCC.

To me, when it says all whose names are not written in the book of life worship the beast (Rev 13:8), I take that very literally (which some may find ironic since I'm Amil and we get falsely accused of spiritualizing everything). I believe literally all whose names are not written in the book of life, without exception, worship the beast and that has been the case for a long time.

The reason I am pointing this out is because it says the harlot woman, the great city Babylon, sits on the beast (Rev 17:3), so I believe that literally all unbelievers have spiritual Babylon as their mother. It says the woman, Babylon, is the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth" (Rev 17:5). So, I believe the RCC is just one of many harlots spawned by their mother, Babylon the Great.

The following also shows the global scope of Babylon which I believe shows an influence even far beyond just the RCC:

Revelation 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. 17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

In Revelation 17:1 it says the woman sits on many waters and verse 3 says that she sits on the beast which all whose names are not written in the book of life worship (Rev 13:8). In verse 15 John explained that the many waters represent "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues". Then in verse 18 it says the woman "reigneth over the kings of the earth".

Then there is this passage:

Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

The level of authority and power that is attributed to the woman is beyond the power that the RCC has, in my opinion. It is "the hold of very foul spirit". Can that be said of the RCC? I don't believe so. I believe that all people whose names are not written in the book of life, which are those who worship the beast, commit fornication with the woman, Babylon.

So, if mystery Babylon, the mother of harlots, has influence over literally all unbelievers, as I believe, then it can't be the RCC. What influence does the RCC have over Muslims, Buddhists or Hindus, for example? Not much, if any.

I believe that mystery Babylon, being the mother of harlots, represents the false religions and philosophies of the world, in general. It has the name Babylon because of its similarity to ancient Babylon. It is called "the great city" several times. And "the great city" is also compared figuratively to "Sodom and Egypt" in Revelation 11:8 as well. So, the harlot woman is the mother of all false religious, God-rejecting empires and systems throughout history including those in ancient Babylon, Sodom and Egypt. All unbelievers are deceived by one false religion or worldly philosophy or another that people follow after instead of God. And, like I said before, I believe all false religions and philosophies are the harlots that have the woman, Babylon, as their mother.

 

[Douggg]

You have no discernment. The serpent was Satan.

Satan is not "the beast" in the bottomless pit. Satan was behind the serpent beast's actions. And Satan will be destroyed by Jesus. But Satan was not the serpent "beast".

 

[Original Happy Camper]

To me, when it says all whose names are written in the book of life worship the beast (Rev 13:8), I take that very literally (which some may find ironic since I'm Amil and we get falsely accused of spiritualizing everything). I believe literally all whose names are not written in the book of life, without exception, worship the beast and that has been the case for a long time.

Please add the word NOT in the first line of your statement.

With that I agree

 

[Original Happy Camper]

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

The end of this 70 weeks marks everlasting righteousness; that is the Kingdom of Heaven of Earth. Is that what happened 3.5 years after Jesus was killed? No way! His followers were hunted, persecuted, and killed. The world is incredibly evil at the moment.

Jesus choose the Captives of Egypt to be his people to spread the gospel to all peoples. He did not choose the Egyptians to spread the gospel.

That is why the verse says "70 weeks are determined upon my people to" (this is a command to Israel) do certain things listed after the word to which they did not and after the stoning of Stephen the gospel went to the Gentiles to complete the requirements given to the Israelite's, they were no longer Gods chosen people.

Remember the parable of the fig tree,

Luke 13 King James Version (KJV)

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.

Jesus is referring to nation of Israel in this parable as they bore no fruit of the gospel.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You say that it was the middle of this 7 year period when Jesus was killed, but then 3.5 years later everything should have been fixed up and finished. Look again at what the prophecy says about the completion of this time:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

The end of this 70 weeks marks everlasting righteousness; that is the Kingdom of Heaven of Earth. Is that what happened 3.5 years after Jesus was killed? No way! His followers were hunted, persecuted, and killed. The world is incredibly evil at the moment.

Notice also that in Revelation 10 there is a special angel who, at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, lifts his hand to Heaven and swears that there will be time no more. I believe this is a reference to the completion of the final 7 years of Daniel's prophecy, the one that brings in everlasting righteousness. Compare this with the description of the 7th trumpet from Revelation 11:15,

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

This sounds a lot like the everlasting righteousness mentioned at the end of the 70th week in Daniel's prophecy.

I believe you are being too literal here. There is a sense in which Christ brought in everlasting righteousness long ago by making eternal life available by way of His death and resurrection. I believe the 70th week is fulfilled. Attributing any part of it to a future Antichrist is a mistake and takes away from what Christ accomplished long ago. Here is my understanding of how Christ fulfilled the 6 things listed in Daniel 9:24 that had to be fulfilled within the 70 weeks.

Fulfillment of Daniel 9:24

1. To Finish Transgression

Isaiah 53 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Hebrews 9:15 "That is why he is the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, so that all who are invited can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant."

John 4:34 "Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work."

Romans 4:15 "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace".

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

2. To Put an End to Sin

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 John 3:5 "And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not"

2 Cor 5:21 "For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him."

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Hebrews 10 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

3. To Make Reconciliation for Iniquity

Hebrews 2:17 "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."

2 Corin 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them"


4. To Bring In Everlasting Righteousness

Matthew 3:15 "And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him."

Romans 5:21 "That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord."

Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


5. To Seal Up the Vision and Prophecy

Luke 18:31 "Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished."

Luke 24:44 "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."

Matt 26:56 "But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled."


6. To Anoint The Most Holy

Acts 10:38 "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him."

Acts 4:27 "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed"

Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel"