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Challenge to those who believe in Eternal Hell

Bernie02

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There should be no disagreement that God may be said to be characterized by one superintending principle: perfection. many attributes are found in God--mercy, love, justice, compassionate, forgiving, etc.--but if He lacks perfection in these or any facet of His essence, He must ultimately fall from being God to being at best, a god....or no god at all.

Informed by God that He was going to Sodom to investigate and, if necessary, destroy the evil city, Abraham quickly struck up a conversation with his Creator—his nephew Lot and family were there, and Abraham, knowing God's intention for Sodom, was deeply concerned about his kin living there. He began with what we recognize to be his famous conversation with God in Gen 18 by asking in v. 23, “….’Wilt Thou indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked?’”


Beginning here and running to the end of this chapter, God establishes a principle so fundamentally and harmoniously woven into both testaments of the Bible, it’s hard to see how the organized church has missed its significance. This principle, what I see as a kind of spiritual essentialism (which the rationally esoteric view of the salvation of all is founded on) is elaborated in vv. 24-25:

"Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city; wilt Thou indeed sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous who are in it? Far be it from Thee to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from Thee! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?"

Abraham goes on to negotiate the number by which God will spare the whole, to 45, 30, 20 and finally, 10. The significance of this exchange should not be missed. There are two similar but equally important points here:
1) a logical difficulty exists here for annihilationists and eternal tormentists--because all goods proceed from truth, and God is pure, perfect Truth. For Him to destroy or eternally separate literally any good from His creation is a logical impossibility. Corresponding to this, of course, is the fact that all His pronouncement of wrath and destruction in the Bible is only ever toward evil, never good.

2) Abraham elaborated the truth that to destroy good would violate the fundamental perfection of God when he said, "Far be it from Thee to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from Thee! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?"

Resolution of the False Doctrine of Eternal Destruction/Separation/Torment in Hell of the Individual

It may be reasonably argued that there exists in every human being, even the most evil human, some degree of good. This is figuratively implied in the exchange between Abraham and God on the road to Sodom. Further, experience shows us that even the most hardened human minds have the capacity to express certain dispositions we immediately recognize to be good: love, forgiveness, empathy, etc. Thus for God to separate or annihilate a whole human being (body, soul and spirit) would be to perform a violation of His perfection, not only in the destruction of good per se, but in that doing so profanes the perfection of justice as He then destroys or condemns to torture and/or separation a being in whom some good exists and therefore is not 100% deserving of eternal punishment.

These infractions of logic are laid to rest in the view that the literal teachings and principle truths of Scripture are primarily elements used by God to produce a 'bigger picture'. William James used the analogy of paints on canvas as so much saleable material spread in certain ways, from which a greater, spiritual thing arises, the picture which exceeds the meaning and importance of the individual paints which make it up. Because the organized church controls what Scripture may say by the imposition of a "literal only" meaning on it, it must necessarily miss the point of Jesus' teaching and God's inspiration in Scripture in using people, events, authors, background, individual demeanors and acts, etc. as components or players on a grand stage--e.g., as particular elements arranged in such a way as to paint a larger picture. In this, the church--much of which claims to believe in an inspired Bible--ends up denying the greater truths which can only be seen when looking past the literal components to the bigger picture they actually form.

In this view, which is simultaneously rational and esoteric, Jesus uses the example of the good man and evil man bringing forth their own kind of treasure (Mat 12:35) to represent an activity from within the same person; the sword drawn to cut off the righteous from the wicked (Ezek 21:2-5) is directed to the spirit of every individual, wheat and tares, goats and sheep, green tree and dry tree are elements within each person; those of Zion and those who forsake the Lord (Isa 1:27-28) are simultaneously elements within each of us; from the many trees of the forest destroyed by the flame of God, yet a remnant (Isa 10:17-22) will remain (elements within the whole), etc. Even in the aforementioned exchange between Abraham and God in Gen 18, God shows in metaphor how he saves the individual--he separates the righteous before destroying the unrighteous--just as Jesus speaks of the separation of goats from sheep (Mat 25) and wheat from tares (Mat 13) and branches cast off and burned while good branches are pruned to bear more fruit (Jn 15:1-6). We struggle to think beyond terms of good and bad individuals, and traditional theology is adjusted to this way of thinking, but God's thoughts and methods are greater than ours in all respects.

Sanctification is the same regenerational process. In the story of the Exodus, the nation Israel is a metaphor for the individual who is brought to the gates of promise, fails for lack of faith and is turned back into the wilderness until sufficient unbelieving parts are destroyed such that Israel is brought back to the land of promise with faith created from hardship. The people and events are "paints" that create the bigger picture. The constituent elements which produced unbelief were 'cut off' from Israel in the wilderness in progressive, fragmented sanctification with the result that faith was brought forth. Hence, cleansing regeneration is wholly the sovereign work of God, though by granting assent in this life we participate with him in this process, just as Israel trudged through the wilderness until God had performed spiritual surgery in him (them) sufficient to build faith.

Summary

Traditional views of salvation impose logical deficiencies which cannot be resolved using current interpretive methods. When the destruction and eternal separation of God's wrath moves from the individual to her constituent parts, these deficiencies evaporate and how God saves all through the atonement and work of Christ Jesus in the spirit/soul of the individual is revealed.

Thus, the universal salvation of all souls by this essentialist methodology, becomes the "one stick" (Ezek 37:16-19) of truthful doctrine (the salvation of all) from metaphoric Calvinism (Judah) and Israel (Arminianism). After more than 400 years of irreconcilable differences, the violations imposed on tests of truth by the competing traditional views of salvation are laid to rest in the bigger picture of the salvation of all.
 

Jpark

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What is this? Appeal to morals?

You can't dissociate punishment from God by saying that He's like a human father. When the Scriptures say that He is the Father of creation, that means He's the founder of creation.

He only cares for those who obey Him. Read Heb. 12 again.

Matt. 5:45 is only a small measure of His love. I don't even know if it is love.

How do you explain Matt. 18:34-35?

"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

Verse 34 = parable
Verse 35 = reality

Compare this Scripture to Luke 19:27, which is entirely a parable (although it may be based on history).
 
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Rajni

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Traditional views of salvation impose logical deficiencies which cannot be resolved using current interpretive methods. When the destruction and eternal separation of God's wrath moves from the individual to her constituent parts, these deficiencies evaporate and how God saves all through the atonement and work of Christ Jesus in the spirit/soul of the individual is revealed.
This makes alot of sense, especially considering that Jesus's mission as the Lamb of God was to take away the sin (not the sinner) of the world. It was the sin--not the vessel in which it resided--He was aiming at.
 
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Jpark

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Thus, the universal salvation of all souls by this essentialist methodology, becomes the "one stick" (Ezek 37:16-19) of truthful doctrine (the salvation of all) from metaphoric Calvinism (Judah) and Israel (Arminianism). After more than 400 years of irreconcilable differences, the violations imposed on tests of truth by the competing traditional views of salvation are laid to rest in the bigger picture of the salvation of all.
Universalism is merely misinterpretation.

Col. 3:9-11 (CS) lie not one to another, as you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new, that is renewed for knowledge according to the image of him [Jesus] that created him [man], where there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman, but Christ is all and in all.

Rom. 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

1 Cor. 15:22-23 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

If universalism is true, does that mean everyone will have crucified their flesh (Gal. 5:24)?

Is not the "all" in Scripture merely referring to those who endure to the end (Matt. 24:13, Mark 13:13)?

If universalism is true, that means there will be no one opposing Christ in His coming. That means that 2 Thess. 1:7-9 is nonsense.

and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power

Jesus indicated sorrow of the world (Matt. 24:30). That means death (2 Cor. 7:10). Furthermore, those who oppose Christ in His coming will not see torment, but eternal destruction.

There are some formidable doctrines, such as advocacy of eternal destruction instead of eternal punishment, but even these do not dare to deny God's punishment, that a just God desires to punish the wicked.

Whereas universalism denies a plethora of Scripture and makes God into a man, a human father!
 
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ForceofTime

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It may be reasonably argued that there exists in every human being, even the most evil human, some degree of good.

Yes, and this 'good' would be God himself.

Since this is unorthodox theology, the Apocalypse of Peter (of NT apocropha, not Nag Hammadi) deals with this subject.

Thanks, important post
 
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Rajni

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If universalism is true, does that mean everyone will have crucified their flesh (Gal. 5:24)?

Yes. The impact of Adam's transgression is not greater than the impact of Christ's triumph. Grace trumps sin (Romans 5:20)

Is not the "all" in Scripture merely referring to those who endure to the end (Matt. 24:13, Mark 13:13)?

If universalism is true, that means there will be no one opposing Christ in His coming. That means that 2 Thess. 1:7-9 is nonsense.

and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well *when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven* with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power

If one is, eschatologically, a futurist, one might find reconciling the above with universal salvation a tad more challenging, though not impossible. However, if one places the 2nd coming during AD70 with the fall of Jerusalem, it clicks much better (at least, it has for me -- one's mileage may vary:)).

Either way, any form of partial salvation is simply another way of saying that evil was, in the end, more than God could handle.
 
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ForceofTime

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Yes. The impact of Adam's transgression is not greater than the impact of Christ's triumph. Grace trumps sin (Romans 5:20)

Either way, any form of partial salvation is simply another way of saying that evil was, in the end, more than God could handle.

Wow, well put!
 
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Jpark

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Is it possible to soften the face of God?

Is it possible if we have committed sins, both many and grevious, to say sorry?
Only by repentance if not by His own decision (Isaiah 55:11).

Isaiah 57:16-18 "For I will not contend forever,
Nor will I always be angry;
For the spirit would grow faint before Me,
And the breath of those whom I have made.
17"Because of the iniquity of his unjust gain I was angry and struck him;
I hid My face and was angry,
And he went on turning away, in the way of his heart.
18"I have seen his ways, but I will heal him;
I will lead him and restore comfort to him and to his mourners,

Yes, but saying sorry is not sufficient. The blood of Jesus must also be involved.

Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
But it's still conditional, indicated by the reference to repentance.

Yes, and this 'good' would be God himself.

Since this is unorthodox theology, the Apocalypse of Peter (of NT apocropha, not Nag Hammadi) deals with this subject.

Thanks, important post
yes, I'm sure everyone has some measure of goodness in them. But is this goodness really God? Or is it merely emanating from the spirit He gave man?



If one is, eschatologically, a futurist, one might find reconciling the above with universal salvation a tad more challenging, though not impossible. However, if one places the 2nd coming during AD70 with the fall of Jerusalem, it clicks much better (at least, it has for me -- one's mileage may vary:)).

Either way, any form of partial salvation is simply another way of saying that evil was, in the end, more than God could handle.
If Jesus already has come, then who were His elect?

You mean that partial salvation says that God is incompetent? This sounds similar to osas theology...
 
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Bernie02

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I thank all who posted, pro and con, but thus far no one has attempted a refutation of the logical difficulty noted in the OP. There have been arguments against the idea of universal salvation posted, but I was hoping someone would take on a specific refutation of the OP.

Some months ago--probably 1 1/2 years ago or so--I posed the following question on another theology board and got these answers.....
=====================================
Can God logically destroy good?

This question rides the fence between theology and philosophy, I'm looking for opinions....

In the Bible, God's wrath is always directed against evil, the opposite of good. We know intuitively that it would be completely wrong for God to repay a legitimately moral act with punishment. This seems to support the notion that God cannot logically destroy good.

Assuming God is the greatest goodness from which all other things "good" derive, is it logically possible for God to destroy any good?

For further clarification....I believe Aristotle made the legitimate distinction that descriptive truth (that which pertains to matter, such as scientific facts) differs from prescriptive (moral) truth, what we typically call "spiritual truth". The former would not apply here. For instance, the beauty of a mountain range is not affected if the range were leveled. Matter was created to be a part of the temproal realm, the world of change. No moral value applies to matter, per se.

But in the realm of universals--such as principles--there's a power inherent in "good" that it seems illogical for God to abolish. For instance, it's unthinkable that He would annul or eliminate the good "mercy".

So, narrowed down: Is it logically possible for God to destroy prescriptive, moral or spiritual good of any kind? If so, why?


======================================================================================

God is good. Nothing else is good. God cannot destroy himself.
RabbiKnife

======================================================================================

This is akin to absolute possibility, or the belief that God can do anything. In fact, the bible teaches us that God can do anything within His nature. Considering reason and logic are within His nature, this would mean that He cannot perform a logical contradiction, because it is impossible for a logical contradiction to exist (it cannot be hypothesized or actualized in any possible worlds).

Thus, God cannot destroy goodness because He is goodness. He cannot be self-defeating, as this is a logical contradiction.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God is the source of all goodness, no matter how tiny
God cannot perform a contradiction, like self negate himself
Therefore, God cannot destroy even the tiniest bit of goodness

That is the logical syllogism you're probably looking for. Logically, God cannot destroy goodness because He cannot negate His own nature.

--------------------------
If God is good (goodness itself), and if the characteristics you listed all come under that goodness, then it is self-evident that God cannot destroy a part of Himself (because He is posited as eternal and simple).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As "God is Love" he cannot destroy good; that is good from his view, which may not be the same in a human mind!

 
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Jpark

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Yes. The impact of Adam's transgression is not greater than the impact of Christ's triumph. Grace trumps sin (Romans 5:20)



If one is, eschatologically, a futurist, one might find reconciling the above with universal salvation a tad more challenging, though not impossible. However, if one places the 2nd coming during AD70 with the fall of Jerusalem, it clicks much better (at least, it has for me -- one's mileage may vary:)).

Either way, any form of partial salvation is simply another way of saying that evil was, in the end, more than God could handle.
Also, how do you explain this?

Col. 3:9-11 (CS) lie not one to another, as you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new, that is renewed for knowledge according to the image of him [Jesus] that created him [man], where there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman, but Christ is all and in all.

Rom. 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

1 Cor. 15:22-23 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

If the coming has already happened, then the "all" only applies to those who were living before that. If your reasoning is correct, after AD 70, everyone who has lived is excluded from renewal and therefore, inheritance.
 
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Jpark

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I thank all who posted, pro and con, but thus far no one has attempted a refutation of the logical difficulty noted in the OP. There have been arguments against the idea of universal salvation posted, but I was hoping someone would take on a specific refutation of the OP.

Some months ago--probably 1 1/2 years ago or so--I posed the following question on another theology board and got these answers.....
=====================================
Can God logically destroy good?

This question rides the fence between theology and philosophy, I'm looking for opinions....

In the Bible, God's wrath is always directed against evil, the opposite of good. We know intuitively that it would be completely wrong for God to repay a legitimately moral act with punishment. This seems to support the notion that God cannot logically destroy good.

Assuming God is the greatest goodness from which all other things "good" derive, is it logically possible for God to destroy any good?

For further clarification....I believe Aristotle made the legitimate distinction that descriptive truth (that which pertains to matter, such as scientific facts) differs from prescriptive (moral) truth, what we typically call "spiritual truth". The former would not apply here. For instance, the beauty of a mountain range is not affected if the range were leveled. Matter was created to be a part of the temproal realm, the world of change. No moral value applies to matter, per se.

But in the realm of universals--such as principles--there's a power inherent in "good" that it seems illogical for God to abolish. For instance, it's unthinkable that He would annul or eliminate the good "mercy".

So, narrowed down: Is it logically possible for God to destroy prescriptive, moral or spiritual good of any kind? If so, why?


======================================================================================

God is good. Nothing else is good. God cannot destroy himself.
RabbiKnife

======================================================================================

This is akin to absolute possibility, or the belief that God can do anything. In fact, the bible teaches us that God can do anything within His nature. Considering reason and logic are within His nature, this would mean that He cannot perform a logical contradiction, because it is impossible for a logical contradiction to exist (it cannot be hypothesized or actualized in any possible worlds).

Thus, God cannot destroy goodness because He is goodness. He cannot be self-defeating, as this is a logical contradiction.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God is the source of all goodness, no matter how tiny
God cannot perform a contradiction, like self negate himself
Therefore, God cannot destroy even the tiniest bit of goodness

That is the logical syllogism you're probably looking for. Logically, God cannot destroy goodness because He cannot negate His own nature.

--------------------------
If God is good (goodness itself), and if the characteristics you listed all come under that goodness, then it is self-evident that God cannot destroy a part of Himself (because He is posited as eternal and simple).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As "God is Love" he cannot destroy good; that is good from his view, which may not be the same in a human mind!

Yet Jesus said He is the good Shepard.

Also, when the Scriptures say only God is good, they mean only He possesses absolute goodness.

Exodus 33:19 And He said, " I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion."

Just as Scripture says God is wise, that means God possesses wisdom (Prov. 8:22).

Also, Scripture says God is Light (1 John 1:5). That means He is in Light (1 John 1:7, 1 Tim. 6:16). So then, God is good means that He dwells in good and God is love means that He dwells in love.

Finally, God is only love (1 John 4:8) to those who obey Him.

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
 
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Bernie02

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Yes, and this 'good' would be God himself.

Since this is unorthodox theology, the Apocalypse of Peter (of NT apocropha, not Nag Hammadi) deals with this subject.

Thanks, important post
Thanks for pointing me to Peter's apocalypse....just googled it, interesting read.
 
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Bernie02

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Yet Jesus said He is the good Shepard.

Also, when the Scriptures say only God is good, they mean only He possesses absolute goodness.
So? This has nothing to do with what I posted. I made no case about 'absolute goodness' in human beings.

Jesus is God:

John 3:13 (Sinaiticus) And no one has ascended into heaven but he that came down from heaven, the Son of man, who is in heaven (Matt. 6:9, Luke 2:14).

Prov. 30:4 Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Gathered? Wrapped? Established? What is His name...?

The mystery explained:

Jesus was the same as God and was God, was God and was flesh, and is the same as God and is God.
If you're trying to make a point, I don't see it.
 
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Bernie02

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Also, how do you explain this?

Col. 3:9-11 (CS) lie not one to another, as you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new, that is renewed for knowledge according to the image of him [Jesus] that created him [man], where there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman, but Christ is all and in all.
Not sure what you think needs explanation...?

Rom. 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
I explain it like this: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (Jn 12:32) Sounds like He had a plan from eternity.

1 Cor. 15:22-23 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
V. 1 says it all...the ALL who die in Adam are the same ALL who will be made alive.

If the coming has already happened, then the "all" only applies to those who were living before that. If your reasoning is correct, after AD 70, everyone who has lived is excluded from renewal and therefore, inheritance.
Makes no sense. The coming Paul wrote of in 1Cor was considered by many to be premillennial.

How would you refute what I posted in the OP?
 
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Jpark

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So? This has nothing to do with what I posted. I made no case about 'absolute goodness' in human beings.
Can God be destroyed? No. It is not ordained by God.

Can goodness be destroyed? Yes, as it is not God. It is merely a possession of God.
 
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Jpark

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I explain it like this: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (Jn 12:32) Sounds like He had a plan from eternity.


V. 1 says it all...the ALL who die in Adam are the same ALL who will be made alive.


Makes no sense. The coming Paul wrote of in 1Cor was considered by many to be premillennial.

How would you refute what I posted in the OP?
Draw in this instance might indicate compulsion, but other Scriptures (i.e. James 4:8) make it clear that man comes to Him by their own will after being invited.

Yet "after that those who are Christ's at His coming" seems to connect the second "all" to those who belong to Christ at His coming. It would appear that the first all is distinct from the second all, despite the "also".
 
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ForceofTime

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But it's still conditional, indicated by the reference to repentance.

yes, I'm sure everyone has some measure of goodness in them. But is this goodness really God? Or is it merely emanating from the spirit He gave man?

I was using Eze to make a counterpoint to your claim that "He only cares for those who obey Him.", which is not the case, since why would he bother to try and save them at all? Like saying Jesus only cared for his disciples, but then why did he go to harlots and sinners?

As far as 'goodness' is concerned, what good can it possibly be if it is not God's and therefore, from God? Is is man's alone?
 
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