Challenge for YECs: What are the roles of population and species in evolution?

[Jimmy D]

Theory is not a fact.

A scientific theory explains the facts.

 

[VirOptimus]

Theory is not a fact.

In your own words, what is a scientific theory?

 

[juvenissun]

In your own words, what is a scientific theory?

Some knowledge which has not been proven true.

 

[VirOptimus]

Some knowledge which has not been proven true.

No, you are in error.

 

[KWCrazy]

You are believing a human authored book over the facts of reality.

This illustrates perfectly why it's a waste of time to argue with atheists. They are so completely wrong about everything there is no point of commonality; no base point with which to hold a discussion. They don't have a clue about the world around them. Their perception of reality discounts half of man's existence.

 

[PsychoSarah]

This illustrates perfectly why it's a waste of time to argue with atheists. They are so completely wrong about everything there is no point of commonality; no base point with which to hold a discussion.

1. that sounds like quitter talk, as if not a single atheist has ever converted to Christianity.

2. If you view atheists that way, then why do you waste your time debating with us?

They don't have a clue about the world around them. Their perception of reality discounts half of man's existence.

-_- YEC's view humans as existing for less than 10,000 years, and atheists such as myself view humans as existing for over 100,000 years. Not sure how you get 1/2 by dividing a number by one smaller than it, but you need to check your calculator.

 

[Speedwell]

1. that sounds like quitter talk, as if not a single atheist has ever converted to Christianity.

2. If you view atheists that way, then why do you waste your time debating with us?



-_- YEC's view humans as existing for less than 10,000 years, and atheists such as myself view humans as existing for over 100,000 years. Not sure how you get 1/2 by dividing a number by one smaller than it, but you need to check your calculator.

I think he must have meant the "spiritual" half.

 

[KWCrazy]

If you view atheists that way, then why do you waste your time debating with us?

I generally prefer to debate with TE's, because at least we have SOME consensus on how the world works and what constitutes reality. Atheists disavow 50% of reality and pretend that we live in a world controlled entirely by natural law.

ALL Christians have had experience with the supernatural. We know that it is every bit as real as the natural world. To us, it's as foolish to pretend it doesn't exist is as crazy as pretending that Canada doesn't exist.

 

[VirOptimus]

I generally prefer to debate with TE's, because at least we have SOME consensus on how the world works and what constitutes reality. Atheists disavow 50% of reality and pretend that we live in a world controlled entirely by natural law.

ALL Christians have had experience with the supernatural. We know that it is every bit as real as the natural world. To us, it's as foolish to pretend it doesn't exist is as crazy as pretending that Canada doesn't exist.

Rational persons dont try to mix metaphysics with science.

Your religious beliefs shouldnt matter when discussing science.

 

[KWCrazy]

Your religious beliefs shouldnt matter when discussing science.

This is a religious website, not a science website.
We were discussing creation, not science. Creation didn't happen scientifically. It violated all the rules of physics.

 

[Speedwell]

This is a religious website, not a science website.
We were discussing creation, not science. Creation didn't happen scientifically. It violated all the rules of physics.

Off hand, I can't think of any reason that it should. Why should God violate the laws of physics--His laws--to get the job done?

 

[KWCrazy]

Off hand, I can't think of any reason that it should. Why should God violate the laws of physics--His laws--to get the job done?

Miracles validate God's authority. There are 333 of them in the Scriptures. Remove all the miracles and you have a pamphlet.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I generally prefer to debate with TE's, because at least we have SOME consensus on how the world works and what constitutes reality. Atheists disavow 50% of reality and pretend that we live in a world controlled entirely by natural law.

Not sure how you quantify what percent of reality is god/Jesus.

ALL Christians have had experience with the supernatural.

-_- that's not true; my mom is Christian, and she has never once claimed to directly speak with Yahweh or have experienced any miracles.

We know that it is every bit as real as the natural world. To us, it's as foolish to pretend it doesn't exist is as crazy as pretending that Canada doesn't exist.

And from my perspective, I'm seeing a bunch of people claim something is there, without any evidence to support that it is. Even most Christians acknowledge that the god they worship isn't just obviously there for all to see; that's a minority opinion that isn't backed by evidence.

 

[KWCrazy]

-_- that's not true; my mom is Christian, and she has never once claimed to directly speak with Yahweh or have experienced any miracles.

She doesn't pray?
She hasn't had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
She hasn't been born again?
How, exactly, is she a Christian?

Even most Christians acknowledge that the god they worship isn't just obviously there for all to see;

Of course not. If God could be proven there would be no such thing as faith, and conversely, no means to get to heaven. Salvation comes from faith. Faith is the confidence in things unproven.

 

[Ophiolite]

This illustrates perfectly why it's a waste of time to argue with atheists.

Have you ever considered discussing things with atheists, rather than arguing with them? You are offended by their narrow minded thinking that avoids contemplating the supernatural. Do you think you might get a little further in your exchanges if you were to engage in a discussion, rather than "fight your corner"? Of course, the same might be said to the atheists, but I was talking to you. If you are correct, that you have a much broader awareness of reality, then wouldn't it make sense for you to be the one who takes that important step? Otherwise, you are correct: this would all be a waste of time. Are you a time-waster?

 

[KWCrazy]

Have you ever considered discussing things with atheists, rather than arguing with them?

Most of them seem to come here to argue. That's why you see offensive things time the Flying Spaghetti Monster as a reference to God, the constant reference to the word of God as a book of mythology and the Israelites as a group of bronze age goat herders. Respect is a two way street. Those who respect others get respect in turn. The smug, self absorbed people who pretend they are smarter and better educated than others because THEY belief in an untenable theory that only exists because there is no alternative serve to turn those of us who well understand both arguments to tune them out.
Beyond that, I believe there are no more scientific arguments to be made. Each point has been made and refuted by the other side. So I prefer to discuss things within the framework of the Scriptures with those who have a firm grasp of reality. The reality is that we are eternal beings. Our existence in eternity is determined by whether we accept or reject God's offer of salvation.

I do not consider as enlightened those willing to disparage millions of people because they have experienced the supernatural. The fact is, demons existed in Christ's time and even after His ascension the disciples cast out demons in His name. That means they still exist today, though demonic possession is likely very rare. The "enlightened ones" constantly bring up alien abductions, indicating that people who make such claims should never be believed. Personally, I don;t know if what they claim happened or not, but there are just too many sightings from too many people to openly proclaim that UFO's do not exist. What are they? Are they real or manifestations of the mind? Are they physical or light anomalies? The key word is Unidentified. Obviously, then, Unidentified Flying Objects are real. It doesn't mean they are flying saucers. It means they haven't been positively identified. We have many unidentified suspects being sought by the authorities. Are they any less real because we haven't identified them?

So no, I don't delude myself into thinking that atheists will be convinced. They are, for the most part, closed minded. Their arguments have to be debunked, though. If they convince a week in faith Christian to abandon their faith they win. We must support our brothers and sisters in Christ by standing united against the enemy.

Our enemy isn't called the "Father of Lies" for nothing.

 

[pitabread]

Most of them seem to come here to argue.

In fairness, that's true of most everyone here. Why else would one come to a C/E board of all places if not for the arguments?

I do not consider as enlightened those willing to disparage millions of people because they have experienced the supernatural. The fact is, demons existed in Christ's time and even after His ascension the disciples cast out demons in His name. That means they still exist today, though demonic possession is likely very rare. The "enlightened ones" constantly bring up alien abductions, indicating that people who make such claims should never be believed. Personally, I don;t know if what they claim happened or not, but there are just too many sightings from too many people to openly proclaim that UFO's do not exist. What are they? Are they real or manifestations of the mind? Are they physical or light anomalies? The key word is Unidentified. Obviously, then, Unidentified Flying Objects are real. It doesn't mean they are flying saucers. It means they haven't been positively identified. We have many unidentified suspects being sought by the authorities. Are they any less real because we haven't identified them?

Personally, just based on my own experience, I think a lot of people experience certain phenomena but it's the attribution of such phenomena is where things go awry.

For example, I experience various sleep-related phenomena including waking dreams (hallucinations) with "supernatural" elements. For example, I've seen ghosts and demons in my bedroom at night, had dinosaurs roaming my halls, and once had a portal to another dimension appear on my bedroom wall. Yet, I know from experience that these are not supernatural in origin but the product of my own mind, when I take into the account the individual experiences and their relationship to popular culture influences.

If you have others steeped in religious beliefs and having similar experiences, it's not surprising their own minds would conjure up religious iconography or other similar manifestations. Then you add in cultural reinforcement from others having similar experiences themselves and it merely lends credence to the attribution of supernatural sources.

Yet, such experiences often completely fail any sort of independent scrutiny, and especially in light of more mundane, natural explanations. That will typically doesn't stop people from believing though, especially given that the experiences themselves are genuine. It's the attribution that is up for question, however.

So when people claim that lots of people have experienced the supernatural or seen an alien spaceship or whatever, a lot of people have definitely had experiences they think are attributable to those external sources. But are they really? Probably, sadly, not.

 

[Speedwell]

Most of them seem to come here to argue. That's why you see offensive things time the Flying Spaghetti Monster as a reference to God, the constant reference to the word of God as a book of mythology and the Israelites as a group of bronze age goat herders.

That's pretty much what they were, if you want to be accurate.

Respect is a two way street. Those who respect others get respect in turn.

LOL!

We must support our brothers and sisters in Christ by standing united against the enemy.

Unless they're non-YEC Christians, in which case they'll be lucky to get no more than a rock through their front window from the other "brothers and sisters in Christ." Where I lived in the Bible Belt it was considered good sport to set dogs on them.

 

[Ophiolite]

Most of them seem to come here to argue. That's why you see offensive things time the Flying Spaghetti Monster as a reference to God, the constant reference to the word of God as a book of mythology and the Israelites as a group of bronze age goat herders. Respect is a two way street. Those who respect others get respect in turn. The smug, self absorbed people who pretend they are smarter and better educated than others because THEY belief in an untenable theory that only exists because there is no alternative serve to turn those of us who well understand both arguments to tune them out.
Beyond that, I believe there are no more scientific arguments to be made. Each point has been made and refuted by the other side. So I prefer to discuss things within the framework of the Scriptures with those who have a firm grasp of reality. The reality is that we are eternal beings. Our existence in eternity is determined by whether we accept or reject God's offer of salvation.

I do not consider as enlightened those willing to disparage millions of people because they have experienced the supernatural. The fact is, demons existed in Christ's time and even after His ascension the disciples cast out demons in His name. That means they still exist today, though demonic possession is likely very rare. The "enlightened ones" constantly bring up alien abductions, indicating that people who make such claims should never be believed. Personally, I don;t know if what they claim happened or not, but there are just too many sightings from too many people to openly proclaim that UFO's do not exist. What are they? Are they real or manifestations of the mind? Are they physical or light anomalies? The key word is Unidentified. Obviously, then, Unidentified Flying Objects are real. It doesn't mean they are flying saucers. It means they haven't been positively identified. We have many unidentified suspects being sought by the authorities. Are they any less real because we haven't identified them?

So no, I don't delude myself into thinking that atheists will be convinced. They are, for the most part, closed minded. Their arguments have to be debunked, though. If they convince a week in faith Christian to abandon their faith they win. We must support our brothers and sisters in Christ by standing united against the enemy.

Our enemy isn't called the "Father of Lies" for nothing.

I thank you for your lengthy, honest and heartfelt reply. I've reviewed the forum rules and my own conscience and do not believe it is possible to reply in kind with out breaking the former and ignoring the latter. Therefore I am left only with the words of Oliver Cromwell:

I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken.

I do have one question. Are you asserting that the Israelites were not a group of Bronze Age goat herders? Why would you consider such an objective description to be perjorative? I'm not looking for an answer to those two questions, but for the sake of your "soul" (with or without quotation marks) you should be.

 

[PsychoSarah]

She doesn't pray?

Of course she does, why wouldn't she? Are you assuming that the deity not personally speaking to her means she doesn't actively participate in her faith? Because most people don't say they literally hear god, dude.

She hasn't had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
She hasn't been born again?
How, exactly, is she a Christian?

She believes, has accepted Jesus Christ as her lord and savior, goes to church and prays regularly... she's a typical Christian.

Of course not. If God could be proven there would be no such thing as faith, and conversely, no means to get to heaven. Salvation comes from faith. Faith is the confidence in things unproven.

Not sure how you have confidence in Yahweh over confidence in Thor, though.