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Challenge for YECs: What are the roles of population and species in evolution?

KWCrazy

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Evolution is a demonstrable, observable process. The process of evolution involves the changes to gene pools over time.

So you make no differentiation between evolution and adaptation? I suppose if you call everything evolution you can see it where you want. Evolution was to be demonstrated by eradiating fruit flies over many generations. Did it work? No. has evolution, then, been observed? No.
 
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PsychoSarah

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So you make no differentiation between evolution and adaptation? I suppose if you call everything evolution you can see it where you want. Evolution was to be demonstrated by eradiating fruit flies over many generations. Did it work? No. has evolution, then, been observed? No.
-_- you could be referencing two different things with the irradiating flies, and neither of them were evolution experiments.
1. You are most likely referring to a series of experiments used to determine the functions of genes by mutating them and observing the results.

2. You could be referencing one of the strategies for reducing insect pest populations, but that's significantly less likely.
 
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KWCrazy

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-_- you could be referencing two different things with the irradiating flies, and neither of them were evolution experiments..
There have been a number of fruit fly experiments trying to force evolution. All have failed.
 
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PsychoSarah

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There have been a number of fruit fly experiments trying to force evolution. All have failed.
Misrepresentation of the experiment used to determine what genes did in this paragraph:
"If evolutionary biologists could document such evolution in action, they could vindicate their worldview and cite real research to support their surreal claims. In 1980, this search for proof led researchers to painstakingly and purposefully mutate each core gene involved in fruit fly development. The now classic work, for which the authors won the Nobel Prize in 1995, was published in Nature.2 The experiments proved that the mutation of any of these core developmental genes―mutations that would be essential for the fruit fly to evolve into any other creature―merely resulted in dead or deformed fruit flies. This therefore showed that fruit flies could not evolve."

1. Everyone knows that HOX genes, genes related to bilateral symmetry, are highly conserved. That the genes that tell where eyes should be rarely mutate without dire consequences says nothing about the majority of the genome, so to conclude that since mutations on these genes are generally detrimental means that a group of organisms cannot evolve is ludicrous.
2. The source incorrectly labels this as an evolution experiment, but it wasn't. The fact that genes were selectively mutated in lab conditions should be the first clue, since actual evolution experiments do not involve directed mutation, and they rarely involve introduced mutagenic factors.

Misrepresentation of a bacteria evolution experiment as well:
"Similarly, Michigan State University evolutionary biologists Richard Lenski and his colleagues searched for signs of evolution in bacteria for 20 years, tracking 40,000 generations.3 In the end, the species that they started with was hobbled by accumulated mutations, and the only changes that had occurred were degenerative."

1. The statement that "all accumulated mutations" were degenerative is a flat out lie. For example, one of the experimental groups acquired mutations that allowed the bacteria to effectively digest citrate without the presence of oxygen (something never seen in that species before).
2. That source of obviously biased nature uses sources from 2010 in its references. In 2010, the evolution experiment had been running for 22 years (not 20) and had reached 50,000 generations (not 40,000). If it is getting basic numbers wrong, why would you think it is depicting the experiment accurately at all?
3. If their statement of accumulated mutations was accurate, all bacteria populations would continuously get more sickly as detrimental mutations built up and there were no benign mutations to offset them. It's rather clear that this is not observed in nature at all.

Note that you'll only find explicitly creationist propaganda sources that claim that either of these experiments were failures, and you definitely don't find any reputable sources that call what was done with the fruit flies "an evolution experiment".
 
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Ophiolite

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@KWCrazy This, I hope, will be last response to you. Unfortunately the gulf between us too large to bridge, certainly when only one of us (myself) seems to be making the effort and the other (you) chooses to promote their agenda and not nother to actually read what has bee written.
What makes you elite?.
Nothing makes me elite.
I did not claim to be elite.
Read the words: "Let me take an elitist stance." This means "I am going to make some comments that are akin to those that could be made by someone who viewed themselves as a member of an elite." It does not mean, "I am elite. My views are elitist".

I don't consider it to be a myth, I consider it to be foundational doctrine. The first three chapters of Genesis are referenced over 200 times in the New Testament alone.
The fact that you do not consider it to be a myth is just a testament to your determination to ignore how it is viewed by Biblical scholars, linguists, and a bunch of other specialist, many of whom are committed, educated Christians. You also choose to ignore that it's mythical quality does not stop it being true.
Earlier I said this "Portions of the Bible are, by any reasonable definition, mythical. This is not a criticism. Myths are an important, arguably vital, part of any religion. They are a means of expressing fundamental truths in an accessible manner.." And now you parrot that back to me with the phrase "foundational doctrine". You are not reading what I am writing. You are too wrapped up in your own world view.

I was going to response to the rest of your post in total, but - on reflection - it would be of zero value. If you ever start being able to, at least, consider alternate points of view, drop me a pm and I may choose to interact with you again.

In the meantime, thank you for your effort. Don't let the bed bugs bite.
 
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DogmaHunter

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1. The Bible is not a myth.


Several stories in it, clearly are.

2. There is a difference between evidence and scientific evidence. I never said the Scriptures were scientific.

Thank goodness. At least that's something.

3. Natural law is subject to God's authority. The 333 miracles listed in the Bible show that. The miracles God performs in our personal lives also show it.
4. Miracles are violations of natural law. They are not exceptionally rare. This forum is full of people who have experienced things which cannot be explained scientifically.

When something is unexplained, then it is unexplained. Ignorance is not a license to just make something up.

The world is also full of people who have experienced things that you don't buy into. Like alien abductees for example. Or scientologists that achieved contact with their inner immortal Thetans which allows them to bend space and time at their will. And many more such things.


You don't regard their experiences as being credible... why would we regard yours as such?


In a world subject only to natural law no miracles would ever happen. Even one miracle disproves the notion that we live in a purely physical world.
Can you demonstrate that a single miracle ever happened?

And if you plan on simply sharing a subjective experience, then think about how an alien abductee or scientologist sharing his subjective experience isn't enough for you to believe their claims either.

Once you have personally experienced the supernatural, you understand that those who claim it doesn't exist are the truly uninformed.

I'm sure scientologists, alien abductees, etc etc etc would say the exact same thing.
 
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DogmaHunter

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The men around Elisha knew that tossing a stick into the water would not make an ax head float, yet the Lord performed a miracle through Elisha. How would you go about validating this miracle? If it can be replicated, then there is a scientific explanation. If not, it's a true miracle.


If the experiences of the alien abductees can not be scientifically explained, does that then mean that these people REALLY were abducted by aliens?

If the experiences of scientologists can not be scientifically explained, does that mean that they are REALLY in contact with their inner immortal thetan and that they can REALLY bend space and time?

I'll assume your answer is "no". Because whenever it comes to a topic that is NOT your religion, you realise very well that such a blatant argument from ignorance is a very very bad reason to accept something as being valid / correct.

If something has no explanation, it just means that it has no explanation.
You can't explain the unexplained, with the inexplicable.

Or 3) you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
Suppose you see two shadows traversing a hallway. There are no people there to make the shadows. The lighting is overhead, so any shadow should be on the floor only, not 3 dimensional and vertical. You're wide away and know what you see. Instinctively, you know they are evil spirits. You can feel their malevolence.
Nobody else is in the room, nobody sees them. How to you validate that scientifically??


Here are a few options that are infinitely more likely then the "they are evil spirits!!!!" thingy:
- there were no shadows and it's just your brain playing tricks on you
- you are hallucinating
- you are simply mistaken about what you think you have seen

We have precedents of all 3 and they are, in fact, extremely common. We KNOW that the human brain is extremely prone to error. We have no precedence of "spirits".

Four people are in a house when all four hear footsteps upstairs. They go up to see who is there. They all report the same cold, creepy feeling, but nobody is upstairs. The footsteps stop and later resume when they are all downstairs again. How to you validate that scientifically??

How do you validate it "spiritually".
Please show the logical reasoning process that gets you from this anecdote to "the bible is true and these things were demons" or similar.
You live in a world of your own construction, where every happening conforms to the laws of physics. The trouble is, you are divorced from reality.

Really? Reality isn't subject to the laws of physics?
If one jumps from a skyscraper, will one not plummeth to his/her death every single time?
Do you think that there is a possible pathway for someone to jump naked from a skyscraper and land unharmed?

And yet, despite having personal experience with the unexplainable, you still pretend it doesn't exist.


The UNEXPLAINED. What is there to pretend that does or does not exist when it comes to the UNEXPLAINED?


Do you understand what the word UNEXPLAINED means?

You've been shown the existence of the supernatural and unexplained


So, the unexplained and the supernatural, are the same thing? Really?
Do you realise that this logic is what gave rise to claims like Thor being responsible for thunder and lightning, Poseidon being responsible for the tides and sea storms, demonic posession being responsible for desease, some egyptian god being responsible for sunrise and sunset by pulling the sun with some kind of supernatural chariot, etc etc etc etc?

Practically everything that has a solid natural scientific explanation today, was at one point in history an "unexplained" thing that was attributed to some god.

Take a hint from history.

I think I will continue to believe God's word over yours.

You are believing a human authored book over the facts of reality.
 
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DogmaHunter

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So you make no differentiation between evolution and adaptation?


Adaption is what the process of evolution does.

I suppose if you call everything evolution you can see it where you want.

Not everything. Just the inheritable changes that occur over generation and which spread throughout the population, regulated by natural selection.

This results in populations adapting to the ever-changing environment they happen to find themselves in.

Evolution was to be demonstrated by eradiating fruit flies over many generations. Did it work?

Yes. In context of the actual evolutionary experiments, off course. Not in context of silly creationist's expectations for the fruit flies to turn into moths or something as "proof of evolution".

has evolution, then, been observed?

yes, all the time.
 
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juvenissun

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Having read some posts here, and been very disappointed by the level of debate, I'd like to challenge the Young Earth Creationists here.

Can you tell us what the roles of population and species are in the modern theory of evolution?

I do this to see if those debating evolution actually understand evolution.

YEC does not care much about evolution. It is a question to wrong audience.
 
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Jimmy D

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If one jumps from a skyscraper, will one not plummeth to his/her death every single time?
Do you think that there is a possible pathway for someone to jump naked from a skyscraper and land unharmed?

Sorry Dogmahunter, it really makes me chuckle every time you say "plummeth" it sounds like you're going all "King James Version" on us.

(I feel weird bringing up your English skills, as they're probably better than mine, but there's no H on the end mate).
 
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DogmaHunter

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Sorry Dogmahunter, it really makes me chuckle every time you say "plummeth" it sounds like you're going all "King James Version" on us.

(I feel weird bringing up your English skills, as they're probably better than mine, but there's no H on the end mate).

LOL!!

Thanks for the heads up. :)
I wasn't sure myself... I took a gamble and stuck to it... I thought "at least then I'll be consistently wrong, if it's wrong" hahaha.

In my defense, english isn't my first language ;-)

Although strangely, I feel like I can express myself better in english then in my native languages dutch (with my mom) and french (with my dad).

Eventhough I don't speak a lot of english, I think I hear and read a lot more english then dutch and french. I'm a software engineer, "hardcore" gamer (some would say) and I watch waaay to much TV (99% of the time, english content), so I spent most of my awake time in front of a screen where everything is in english lol
 
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