Cessationists: how do you explain the following videos?

[Major1]

How do you know that "adrenaline and excitement" are the ultimate cause behind the shaking and trembling observed in the videos? Did you read scientific studies or something explaining the causes of the phenomenon? Or are you saying that as an opinion / educated guess? If you know the real cause, I have a question posted on Psychology & Neuroscience StackExchange about this that is open to new answers.


That's true in many cases for glossolalia and being slain in the spirit, which are the two examples you mentioned, but what about shaking and trembling? Do you know people who intentionally faked trembling and shaking to "fit in the group"?

Yes I do......ALL of them my brother. It is a "Faked" responce due to the fact that it is expected of them to prove their salvation.

It is actually a failure of faith to believe in the gospel.

In most cases it is a learned process of which I am a witness.

 

[Albion]

That's true in many cases for glossolalia and being slain in the spirit, which are the two examples you mentioned, but what about shaking and trembling? Do you know people who intentionally faked trembling and shaking to "fit in the group"?

I must say that I'm mystified by your insistence that shaking and trembling in a Pentecostal context simply cannot be attributed to natural causes. Of course they can be.

And when it's expected of those people, why would any one of us insist that there is no possibility whatsoever that these actions might be attributed to something other than the Holy Spirit?

 

[Isilwen]

I used to go to a Pentecostal leaning church with my ex-wife several years ago. They were very much into being slain in the spirit and many would go up there for that. While I am not a cessationist, I don't believe that these things happen with the frequency that they seem to in these types of churches.

I went up on a Sunday. The pastor was increasing putting me further back onto my heels by pushing me. So, I decided I would play along. I fell back in complete control of what I was doing, so I played like I was slain in the spirit. There were hallelujahs all over. I kept my eyes closed and continued to play along. I stayed down for five minutes listening to the pastor use me as an example as that was my first time of being "slain in the spirit."

Tell me, why didn't the pastor realize that I faked it?

I now avoid these churches and prefer to stick to liturgical type churches.

 

[Major1]

I used to go to a Pentecostal leaning church with my ex-wife several years ago. They were very much into being slain in the spirit and many would go up there for that. While I am not a cessationist, I don't believe that these things happen with the frequency that they seem to in these types of churches.

I went up on a Sunday. The pastor was increasing putting me further back onto my heels by pushing me. So, I decided I would play along. I fell back in complete control of what I was doing, so I played like I was slain in the spirit. There were hallelujahs all over. I kept my eyes closed and continued to play along. I stayed down for five minutes listening to the pastor use me as an example as that was my first time of being "slain in the spirit."

Tell me, why didn't the pastor realize that I faked it?

I now avoid these churches and prefer to stick to liturgical type churches.

Yes.....been there and done that.

 

[Major1]

I must say that I'm mystified by your insistence that shaking and trembling in a Pentecostal context simply cannot be attributed to natural causes. Of course they can be.

And when it's expected of those people, why would anyone insist that there is no possibility whatsoever that the actions cannot be anything other than caused by the Holy Spirit?

I would not argue the point with you my brother. Certainly there is a case for what you just said and I agree completely with you.

However it should be noted that there is always an open door that one must go through and once that is done, the usual path of emotionalism carries that person deeper and deeper into what they "feel" needs to be done.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Yes I do......ALL of them my brother. It is a "Faked" responce due to the fact that it is expected of them to prove their salvation.

It is actually a failure of faith to believe in the gospel.

In most cases it is a learned process of which I am a witness.

You said "in most cases" which means that you acknowledge that there are exceptions. What is the cause for those exceptions? How do you distinguish between someone who is faking it from someone who is not?

 

[TruthSeek3r]

I must say that I'm mystified by your insistence that shaking and trembling in a Pentecostal context simply cannot be attributed to natural causes. Of course they can be.

I never claimed that it cannot be attributed to natural causes (if I did, please quote me saying that). However, I remain skeptical about those who do claim that shaking and trembling has natural causes. If you are totally convinced that shaking and trembling has natural causes, then it shouldn't be a problem for you to convince others about your position. Let me suggest you a perfect place to do so: this question. It's open to answers. If you happen to know a scientific explanation for shaking and trembling in religious settings, then I kindly invite you to share your knowledge by posting an answer.

And when it's expected of those people, why would any one of us insist that there is no possibility whatsoever that these actions might be attributed to something other than the Holy Spirit?

"People are faking it in order to meet the group's expectations" is a possible explanation (scientifically speaking it is a hypothesis), but in order to become an established scientific explanation you would need to provide evidence. Moreover, claiming that that hypothesis is the explanation for all cases is an even stronger claim that would need even stronger evidence to become believable.

Furthermore, I have serious doubts concerning this hypothesis. There are examples of shaking and trembling you can find on the web that are so dramatic that it's just very hard to believe that these people are faking it. Take a look at these examples: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M. There are many dramatic examples like these ones. Anyone who claims these are all fake is making a super strong claim, and without evidence/proof there is no reason to believe that. Just claiming "everyone on the planet who experiences shaking and trembling is an actor" without evidence is a baseless claim, and it's perfectly OK to remain skeptical of such a claim, and that's what I do.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

[...] I went up on a Sunday. The pastor was increasing putting me further back onto my heels by pushing me. So, I decided I would play along. I fell back in complete control of what I was doing, so I played like I was slain in the spirit. There were hallelujahs all over. I kept my eyes closed and continued to play along. I stayed down for five minutes listening to the pastor use me as an example as that was my first time of being "slain in the spirit."

Tell me, why didn't the pastor realize that I faked it?

You are talking about faking "being slain in the spirit", but this thread is about shaking and trembling (a different manifestation).

 

[Isilwen]

You are talking about faking "being slain in the spirit", but this thread is about shaking and trembling (a different manifestation).

Making a point.

Do you have an answer to my question?

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Making a point.

Do you have an answer to my question?

I went up on a Sunday. The pastor was increasing putting me further back onto my heels by pushing me. So, I decided I would play along. I fell back in complete control of what I was doing, so I played like I was slain in the spirit. There were hallelujahs all over. I kept my eyes closed and continued to play along. I stayed down for five minutes listening to the pastor use me as an example as that was my first time of being "slain in the spirit."

Tell me, why didn't the pastor realize that I faked it?

Probably because being "slain in the spirit" is relatively easier to fake (unlike shaking and trembling with dramatic performances like these ones: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M).

Btw, did you have the chance to chat with other people who were "slain in the spirit" in that church? How did they describe the experience?

 

[Isilwen]

Probably because being "slain in the spirit" is relatively easier to fake (unlike shaking and trembling with dramatic performances like these ones: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M).

Yet, if the pastor is guided by the spirit because the spirit supposedly fell on the congregation, I would think that the pastor would have gotten something from the spirit that I was faking it.

Something just isn't right about these services.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Yet, if the pastor is guided by the spirit because the spirit supposedly fell on the congregation, I would think that the pastor would have gotten something from the spirit that I was faking it.

Something just isn't right about these services.

Maybe that pastor in particular was a scammer, I don't know. Did you have the chance to chat with other people who were "slain in the spirit" in that church? How did they describe their experience?

 

[Isilwen]

Maybe that pastor in particular was a scammer, I don't know. Did you have the chance to chat with other people who were "slain in the spirit" in that church? How did they describe their experience?

Generally, they would tell me they weren't in control of their bodies, but many of these people have followed this pastor around and would say anything to keep him looking good.

You may be right though about him. We had Bible study one Wednesday night and we were in Genesis 31. He specifically asked how many years did Jacob work for Leah and Rachel. Most said 20 years or 21 years. I said 14. Jacob himself says 14 in verse 41. The pastor said it was 20 years. So, I questioned him after the Bible study and showed him the verse where Jacob says how long. He said he would pray about it and will let me know. On Sunday I asked and he said the spirit told him 20 years. I again showed him verse 41. He discussed it and said I am not to question him as he got his answer for the holy spirit.

Basically, he said the Bible is lying.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I guess I'm not sure what it is that is supposed to be explained. Mass hysteria does not require a supernatural or spiritual cause.

Note that I am not a cessationist, but neither am I a continuationist.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Major1]

You said "in most cases" which means that you acknowledge that there are exceptions. What is the cause for those exceptions? How do you distinguish between someone who is faking it from someone who is not?

Indeed. That is the problem isn't it??? If it was sincere we would not be having this conversation would we.

As has been stated to you.....why in the world are you so fixated on "trembling and shaking"???

I mean.......who actually cares. Personally I would say that it comes from emotions which some can control and some can not. Those emotions can cause all kinds of physical actions including shaking and crying when they are genuine.

From the videos you posted it is clear that the problem comes when the shakeing turns into some other manifestation which draws the attention of the people in the church.

Do you go to church to worship the Lord Jesus or to watch the people who are doing things to be seen of others?????

 

[Major1]

Generally, they would tell me they weren't in control of their bodies, but many of these people have followed this pastor around and would say anything to keep him looking good.

You may be right though about him. We had Bible study one Wednesday night and we were in Genesis 31. He specifically asked how many years did Jacob work for Leah and Rachel. Most said 20 years or 21 years. I said 14. Jacob himself says 14 in verse 41. The pastor said it was 20 years. So, I questioned him after the Bible study and showed him the verse where Jacob says how long. He said he would pray about it and will let me know. On Sunday I asked and he said the spirit told him 20 years. I again showed him verse 41. He discussed it and said I am not to question him as he got his answer for the holy spirit.

Basically, he said the Bible is lying.

That says a couple of things does it not?

1. Pride would not allow him to admitt that he was wrong.

2. An inability to learn from others when the truth of God's Word is presented.

 

[Major1]

Probably because being "slain in the spirit" is relatively easier to fake (unlike shaking and trembling with dramatic performances like these ones: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M).

Btw, did you have the chance to chat with other people who were "slain in the spirit" in that church? How did they describe the experience?

So then you are admitting that these manifestation are in fact being faked!

Everyone should be aware that In the biblical instances, the people fall upon their face in awe at either what or whom they see.

In the slain in the Spirit counterfeit we see being done in Pentacostal churches, they fall backwards, either in response to the wave of the speaker’s arm or as a result of a church leader’s touch (or push in some cases).

Now, we or you can debate this till the cows come home but the fact is that there is no biblical basis for this concept.

 

[Albion]

I never claimed that it cannot be attributed to natural causes (if I did, please quote me saying that).

Well, you persisted in post after post to dismiss the suggestion that this could be the explanation.

However, I remain skeptical about those who do claim that shaking and trembling has natural causes.

Why would you be skeptical of the most likely explanation? I liked your reply to Major1 in post #46 better.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

I guess I'm not sure what it is that is supposed to be explained. Mass hysteria does not require a supernatural or spiritual cause.

Note that I am not a cessationist, but neither am I a continuationist.

-CryptoLutheran

Mass hysteria is the second hypothesis in this answer: https://psychology.stackexchange.com/a/25800/25376 (posted by a very reputable user from Psychology & Neuroscience StackExchange). Also, it is one of the hypotheses that got immediately dismissed in the same answer. The phenomenon does not have a scientific explanation, every hypothesis proposed is mere speculation.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

As has been stated to you.....why in the world are you so fixated on "trembling and shaking"???

Because the phenomenon does not have a known scientific explanation. Every "explanation" is just a speculative hypothesis that has not been scientifically verified. Check this out: https://psychology.stackexchange.com/a/25800/25376

I mean.......who actually cares. Personally I would say that it comes from emotions which some can control and some can not. Those emotions can cause all kinds of physical actions including shaking and crying when they are genuine.

If you are so sure this is the explanation, why don't you post your explanation here: Is there a scientific explanation for dramatic body shaking and trembling in religious settings? (see videos for illustrative examples) ??