We Are Not The Same

[Pepperdoodle]

Yes Charlie Kirk was a Conservative Christian voter and activist.
In the United States that is called "the political right" or just "the right"
The left are the woke, the progressives and the Democrats and anarchists.
The libertarians can fall either right or left depending.

In your observations, do you find Libertarians tend to lean Left or Right more?

In my observations, libertarians tend to align with the Left on social issues and with the Right on economic issues.
Given the social issues seem to be a stronger pull, atleast online, it seems they lean more to the Left overall.

 

[Hazelelponi]

It'd help you if you could back up your wild claims with facts.

You didn't present any either so I find it dubious to try and hold it against him.

Many people dismiss criticism of the 2020 unrest by simply asserting it was “mostly peaceful.” Yet what some label “mostly peaceful” others experienced and would label as violent and destructive. That summer caused billions of dollars in property damage and cost many innocent lives. I personally watched footage of an elderly white man dragged from his car at a stoplight and beaten because of his skin color.

While the majority of protesters may indeed have been peaceful, the violence and destruction left lasting scars. Businesses were ruined, lives upended, and communities forced to bear the financial cost—rarely paid by those who committed the crimes.

Although some Democratic leaders publicly condemned the violence, other prominent Democrats simultaneously raised bail money for those arrested, enabling and encouraging repeat offenses.

When a movement's - one aligned with a political party - leaders and supporters send such mixed signals, it is only natural for people to reevaluate the cause and the company they are keeping.

And when you compare the reactions from the right and the left during tragedy, you realize who you prefer to keep company with, it's not the "mostly peaceful yet cause billions in damage and innocent lives lost" group - it's the actually peaceful group.

 

[Hazelelponi]

In my observations, libertarians tend to align with the Left on social issues and with the Right on economic issues.
Given the social issues seem to be a stronger pull, atleast online, it seems they lean more to the Left overall.

I have always seen them politically a little more to the right of the typical liberal Democrat, but I think it's because they are big on our rights, keeping them, much more than many modern Democrats seem to.

On many social issues we agree with many on the libertarian side right now.

For example: many in the LGB community are supportive of aligning women's sports with biological sex and are against the new version of man and women.

There's also controversy within the LGB community over transing minors with many within that community aligning with conservatives.

I caught a video just yesterday put out by an L woman who believes the LGBTQIA+ community is now split and LGB International has now started. Charlie Kirk's death is thought by her to have been the final catalyst for the split, as they don't agree with the T's and that radical agenda that's being pushed.

So social issues are changing things up.

The extremes are too extreme for quite a few. You never know anymore, but conservatism is on the rise, in libertarian circles too, even on some social issues.

That's why MAGA is so big. Its coming from everywhere. .

 

[Pepperdoodle]

I have always seen them politically a little more to the right of the typical liberal Democrat, but I think it's because they are big on our rights, keeping them, much more than many modern Democrats seem to.
On many social issues we agree with many on the libertarian side right now.
For example: many in the LGB community are supportive of aligning women's sports with biological sex and are against the new version of man and women.
There's also controversy within the LGB community over transing minors with many within that community aligning with conservatives.
I caught a video just yesterday put out by an L woman who believes the LGBTQIA+ community is now split and LGB International has now started. Charlie Kirk's death is thought by her to have been the final catalyst for the split, as they don't agree with the T's and that radical agenda that's being pushed.
So social issues are changing things up.
The extremes are too extreme for quite a few. You never know anymore, but conservatism is on the rise, in libertarian circles too, even on some social issues.
That's why MAGA is so big. Its coming from everywhere. .

Gays Against Groomers have been good at sharing what some of those out there are sharing in their own words about being into things than some in the "community" aren't into at all.
Even though I don't support the community due to principles in the Bible, I do appreciate those like, Gays Against Groomers, who have some common sense and are pushing back at the very over the edge stuff.

www.facebook.com/gaysagainstgroomers

 

[Yarddog]

You didn't present any either so I find it dubious to try and hold it against him.

I provided plenty of proof to poodle on several different threads but poodle never does.

Many people dismiss criticism of the 2020 unrest by simply asserting it was “mostly peaceful.”

It was. 95% of the protests were documented as not causing any damage.

Yet what some label “mostly peaceful” others experienced and would label as violent and destructive.

Some label all of the protests as violent because that is all their news source provides them.

That summer caused billions of dollars in property damage and cost many innocent lives.

Yes it did.

I personally watched footage of an elderly white man dragged from his car at a stoplight and beaten because of his ski color.

Okay, I personally watched hundreds of protests that were totally peaceful and police officers, city leaders, clergy, and others walked arm in arm.

While the majority of protesters may indeed have been peaceful, the violence and destruction left lasting scars.

Yes it did, just as violent protests where right wingers marched.

Businesses were ruined, lives upended, and communities forced to bear the financial cost—rarely paid by those who committed the crimes.

Criminals rarely pay the costs of their terror,just like the J6 insurrectionists never did.

Although some Democratic leaders publicly condemned the violence, other prominent Democrats simultaneously raised bail money for those arrested, enabling and encouraging repeat offenses.

Just as Republicans did for the insurrectionists. Many called them heroes and political prisoners.

When a movement's - one aligned with a political party - leaders and supporters send such mixed signals, it is only natural for people to reevaluate the cause and the company they are keeping.

Yep, left and right.

And when you compare the reactions from the right and the left during tragedy, you realize who you prefer to keep company with,

Yep, I'd take moderate Democrats and Republicans.

it's not the "mostly peaceful yet cause billions in damage and innocent lives lost" group - it's the actually peaceful group.

The mostly peaceful didn't cause any damage. It's the smaller violent ones, from the BLM and J6ers that caused the damage and deaths.

 

[Pepperdoodle]

I provided plenty of proof to poodle on several different threads but poodle never does.
It was. 95% of the protests were documented as not causing any damage.
Some label all of the protests as violent because that is all their news source provides them.
Yes it did.
Okay, I personally watched hundreds of protests that were totally peaceful and police officers, city leaders, clergy, and others walked arm in arm.
Yes it did, just as violent protests where right wingers marched.
Criminals rarely pay the costs of their terror,just like the J6 insurrectionists never did.
Just as Republicans did for the insurrectionists. Many called them heroes and political prisoners.
Yep, left and right.
Yep, I'd take moderate Democrats and Republicans.
The mostly peaceful didn't cause any damage. It's the smaller violent ones, from the BLM and J6ers that caused the damage and deaths.

If you're referring to the months of riots across the country during the summer of 2020...you are living under illusions if you believe that during those months of riots there was..."95%" "not causing damage; "totally peaceful" you are exactly who the Left leaning look for to support those lies.

 

[JosephZ]

If you're referring to the months of riots across the country during the summer of 2020...you are living under illusions if you believe that during those months of riots there was..."95%" "not causing damage; "totally peaceful" you are exactly who the Left leaning look for to support those lies

Most of the protests were totally peaceful; that's a fact, but those that did become violent often had right-wing infiltrators.

Around 30% of the BLM protests included paid participants, and more than half had protesters with right-wing ideologies.

A few examples of some of the more notable violence during the BLM protests from around the country:

On May 27, 2020, in Minneapolis a man with an umbrella who was a member of the Hells Angels linked to the Aryan Cowboys, a white supremacist prison and street gang, was seen smashing store windows. It was one of the first reports of destructive activity that day, and it created an atmosphere of hostility and tension that helped spark an outbreak of looting following initially peaceful protests, according to police investigators, who said the man “wanted to sow discord and racial unrest."

On May 28, 2020, Ivan Harrison Hunter of Boerne, Tx., fired 13 times at the Minneapolis Police Third Precinct building with an automatic weapon during BLM protests.

On May 29, 2020, Matthew Lee Rupert of Galesburg, Ill., reportedly filmed himself setting a Minneapolis building on fire and taking some items from an Office Depot.

On May 29, 2020, U.S. Air Force sergeant Steven Carrillo reportedly shot two security officers in front of a federal building in Oakland.

On May 30, three suspected Boogaloo members who plotted to cause violence at protests in Las Vegas were arrested by FBI agents. Stephen Parshall, Andrew Lynam, and William Loomis planned to toss Molotov cocktails at police during a BLM protest that night, according to the FBI.

On May 30, 2020, two Boogaloo members were arrested during a BLM protest in Columbia, S.C. Paramedic Kevin Ackley threw a water bottle at police during the protest, while Joshua Barnard was charged with breaking into a car and looting.

On July 25, 2020, members of the far-right, anti-government Boogaloo Bois marched with semi-automatic rifles in a BLM protest in Richmond, Va. They “spearheaded” the night of violence that saw a dump truck set ablaze and businesses’ windows broken.


Paid and Out-of-State Protesters

A common trend observed by major city law enforcement agencies was the large number of visitors from out-of-state who participated in the protests. Nearly all agencies (90%) experienced protest events with persons that came to the event from another state. Additionally, many agencies reported that violence seemed to spike on days where out-of-state protesters were present. The days that levels of violence were lower were days when local protesters remained, and fewer numbers of out-of-state participants were observed. While less common, over a quarter of major city law enforcement agencies (29%) reported situations with participants that were paid to partake in the protest.

Major Cities Chiefs Association Report on the 2020 Protest and Civil Unrest.

Far-Right Infiltrators and Agitators in George Floyd Protests: Indicators of White Supremacists

AP finds most arrested in protests aren’t leftist radicals

 

[Yarddog]

If you're referring to the months of riots across the country during the summer of 2020...you are living under illusions if you believe that during those months of riots there was..."95%" "not causing damage; "totally peaceful" you are exactly who the Left leaning look for to support those lies.

Then provide your proof as to how many riots there were and how many peaceful protests there were. It should be easy if you are correct.

 

[Pepperdoodle]

Most of the protests were totally peaceful; that's a fact, but those that did become violent often had right-wing infiltrators. Around 30% of the BLM protests included paid participants, and more than half had protesters with right-wing ideologies.

If you want to believe that "right-wing infiltrators" were a good chunk of the months of riots in the summer of 2020, go for it.

Many of us believe left wing infiltrators were a good chunk of one day, J6.
A main difference is the J6 protestors, mainly Left leaning, did so in one area in DC...while the rioters in 2020, mostly Left leaning, did so for months nation wide.

 

[Hazelelponi]

If you want to believe that "right-wing infiltrators" were a good chunk of the months of riots in the summer of 2020, go for it.

Many of us believe left wing infiltrators were a good chunk of one day, J6.
A main difference is the J6 protestors, mainly Left leaning, did so in one area in DC...while the rioters in 2020, mostly Left leaning, did so for months nation wide.

And only on one day, to point out.

I do believe if your upset enough at the government to carry a sign, you should take it to the steps of government itself and wave it there.

How is sign waving at the neighbors helpful anyway? They can't do anything, and aren't who the grievance is with and aren't in government.

If you want them to support a cause that you think is important it's education that you should seek to provide, burning down someone's business or looting it is not helpful to anyone's cause, and waving signs in front of people, screaming at people or blocking traffic so they can't get to work and feed their kids isn't winning friends and influencing people.

I don't really get the whole sign waving thing so much. I always kind of thought that's why we vote and write our representatives, it's not because we just like form letters. Maybe I'm just weird.

 

[Yarddog]

If you want to believe that "right-wing infiltrators" were a good chunk of the months of riots in the summer of 2020, go for it.

Many of us believe left wing infiltrators were a good chunk of one day, J6.
A main difference is the J6 protestors, mainly Left leaning, did so in one area in DC...while the rioters in 2020, mostly Left leaning, did so for months nation wide.

All of that was debunked. I don't know anything about right wing infiltration that was proven, though.

 

[Pepperdoodle]

And only on one day, to point out.

I do believe if your upset enough at the government to carry a sign, you should take it to the steps of government itself and wave it there.

How is sign waving at the neighbors helpful anyway? They can't do anything, and aren't who the grievance is with and aren't in government.

If you want them to support a cause that you think is important it's education that you should seek to provide, burning down someone's business or looting it is not helpful to anyone's cause, and waving signs in front of people, screaming at people or blocking traffic so they can't get to work and feed their kids isn't winning friends and influencing people.

I don't really get the whole sign waving thing so much. I always kind of thought that's why we vote and write our representatives, it's not because we just like form letters.

Great points!!

 

[PloverWing]

If only it were that easy.

But Kirk's murder was a catalyst, and things are only going to get worse.

God save us.

-CryptoLutheran

Based on what I've been seeing here in Christian Forums, I fear you may be right.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You didn't "call me out"
You gave an opinion.
I disagreed.

I didn't give an opinion, I provided data. You disregarded it.

-CryptoLuthera

 

[ViaCrucis]

If I were interested in trying to change your mind, I'd do so, but I'm not interested.
In the years I've been online, one thing that is obvious is...you're not going to change my mind anymore than I'm going to change your mind.
You are free to think what you want and so am I.

That's true. But you've made claims in this thread. I provided factual data. You have not. I did not provide opinion, I provided facts.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[2PhiloVoid]

If we want to talk pure objective facts, politically Right ideology has been the cause of far more violence committed than politically Left ideology. That isn't opinion, that doesn't justify or excuse violence committed by people with Left ideology. But it is an objective, actual, real fact.

Left-Wing Terrorism and Political Violence in the United States: What the Data Tells Us

The Warfare, Irregular Threats, and Terrorism Program examines the state of political violence, finding left-wing violence has risen in the last decade but from very low levels and still well below historic levels of violence by right-wing and jihadist actors.

www.csis.org

https://www.cato.org/blog/politically-motivated-violence-rare-united-states

That doesn't make "the Right" inherently violent. At least I certainly don't believe it does.

But if we are going to deal with real facts based on hard evidence, then let's face reality.

-CryptoLutheran

I think this sort of comparison conceptually skews what's really going on and what the actual continuum of demarcation should be.

Hint: It's not really the one pitting Left vs. Right.

Rather, it's the one that pits Fascism/Dictatorship (Left or Right) vs. Anarchy

Anarchy * |------------------------------------|----------------------------------------| * Fascism/Dictatorship