Cessationists: how do you explain the following videos?

[ViaCrucis]

Mass hysteria is the second hypothesis in this answer: https://psychology.stackexchange.com/a/25800/25376 (posted by a very reputable user from Psychology & Neuroscience StackExchange). Also, it is one of the hypotheses that got immediately dismissed in the same answer. The phenomenon does not have a scientific explanation, every hypothesis proposed is mere speculation.

A psychological explanation is the only one that I think makes sense. I see no reason to blame the devils for what can be more easily explained by nature.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Well, you persisted in post after post to dismiss the suggestion that this could be the explanation.

If someone claims something is an explanation, but doesn't justify their claim, skepticism towards that claim is perfectly justified. Let's do something. If you really know a good explanation for the phenomenon, I challenge you to post your explanation here: Is there a scientific explanation for dramatic body shaking and trembling in religious settings? (see videos for illustrative examples)

Why would you be skeptical of the most likely explanation? I liked your reply to Major1 in post #46 better.

1) Which explanation? 2) How do you measure likelihood?

 

[TruthSeek3r]

A psychological explanation is the only one that I think makes sense. I see no reason to blame the devils for what can be more easily explained by nature.

-CryptoLutheran

Awesome, if you know a psychological explanation, I challenge you to post your explanation here: Is there a scientific explanation for dramatic body shaking and trembling in religious settings? (see videos for illustrative examples)

 

[ViaCrucis]

Awesome, if you know a psychological explanation, I challenge you to post your explanation here: Is there a scientific explanation for dramatic body shaking and trembling in religious settings? (see videos for illustrative examples)

I'm not a psychologist.

But neither am I an astronomer, but if I see a flash of light in the sky I can be reasonably confident that a natural explanation is warranted.

Occam's Razor.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[TruthSeek3r]

I'm not a psychologist.

But neither am I an astronomer, but if I see a flash of light in the sky I can be reasonably confident that a natural explanation is warranted.

Occam's Razor.

-CryptoLutheran

By the same token, I would presume you are also a materialist evolutionist who does not believe in any supernatural explanation, because of Occam's Razor, right? Then why are you wasting your time on a Christian forum?

 

[ViaCrucis]

By the same token, I would presume you are also a materialist evolutionist who does not believe in any supernatural explanation, because of Occam's Razor, right? Then why are you wasting your time on a Christian forum?

I accept evolution, yes. But I don't reject the supernatural. The Scriptures are replete with stories of God's miraculous and supernatural power being exercised through His people.

But that doesn't mean that when I see a group of people barking like dogs and spasming on the floor that I assume it's supernatural. The Scriptures instruct Christians to be sober-minded and not given to believing whatever we hear.

I am skeptical because I'm a Christian, not in spite of being a Christian.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[TruthSeek3r]

I accept evolution, yes. But I don't reject the supernatural. The Scriptures are replete with stories of God's miraculous and supernatural power being exercised through His people.

By Occam's Razor, shouldn't you be skeptical of the Bible too? Is there any scientific evidence to believe that the claims about the supernatural made by the Bible are true?

 

[ViaCrucis]

By Occam's Razor, shouldn't you be skeptical of the Bible too?

If I wasn't a Christian. But I'm a Christian.

Is there any scientific evidence to believe that the claims about the supernatural made by the Bible are true?

Not that I'm aware of.

But it seems like you want to present a false dichotomy here. Just because I take some things purely on faith, does not mean that I believe everything anyone ever says. My standard is Scripture and the orthodox teaching, preaching, and practice of the Christian Church.

People rolling on the floor is simply nothing which the Church has ever recognized as an authentic Christian experience. That leaves one of two possibilities: It is either demonic, or else it is purely psychological.

So, as I said, I don't assume that it is demonic; so that leaves me to believe that the most likely possibility is that it is purely psychological, it is natural. If it's not psychological, that would make it demonic. I'm not denying that possibility, I'm just not jumping to that assumption without a good reason.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[TruthSeek3r]

People rolling on the floor is simply nothing which the Church has ever recognized as an authentic Christian experience. That leaves one of two possibilities: It is either demonic, or else it is purely psychological.

So, as I said, I don't assume that it is demonic; so that leaves me to believe that the most likely possibility is that it is purely psychological, it is natural. If it's not psychological, that would make it demonic. I'm not denying that possibility, I'm just not jumping to that assumption without a good reason.

Two things:

1) Just like you don't jump to the conclusion that it is demonic without a good reason, shouldn't you also not jump to the conclusion that it is natural without a good reason? I explicitly asked for natural, scientific explanations for the phenomenon on Psychology & Neuroscience StackExchange, a site with very reputable experts on these fields who are actively answering questions, and it turns out that nobody knows a scientific explanation. The best answer I've received at the moment is this one: https://psychology.stackexchange.com/a/25800, posted by a 800+ reputation user. This fellow has a lot of experience in psychology and he probably took hours researching sources in order to post the best answer he could in order to win a +50 bounty I placed on the question (I awarded him the bounty actually and accepted his answer). The conclusion of his research? The phenomenon has no known scientific explanation, and the best we can do about it is to pose "strawman hypotheses" (aka educated guesses). So when someone loosely claims that this phenomenon has natural causes, whereas a 800+ reputation user from Psychology.SE spent hours writing a thorough answer and came to the conclusion that we just don't know, I mean, you cannot ask me to take those posting lazy claims seriously.

2) Would you consider demons to be a more likely candidate explanation if you take the following evidence into account: Link 1, Link 2, Link 3, Link 4, Link 5, Link 6, Link 7, Link 8 ???

 

[Albion]

If someone claims something is an explanation, but doesn't justify their claim, skepticism towards that claim is perfectly justified.

Okay then. Because you reject, out of hand, the most believable and most easily explained answer, prove that the Holy Spirit was the cause. Don't just say it, but prove it.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Okay then. Because you reject, out of hand, the most believable and most easily explained answer [...]

Again, if you know an "easily explained answer" for the phenomenon, I invite you to share your knowledge with the world by posting that answer here: Is there a scientific explanation for dramatic body shaking and trembling in religious settings? (see videos for illustrative examples)

[...], prove that the Holy Spirit was the cause. Don't just say it, but prove it.

Did I ever claim that Holy Spirit was the cause? If I did, please share the quote where I said so

 

[Albion]

Again, if you know an "easily explained answer" for the phenomenon, I invite you to share your knowledge with the world by posting that answer here

Well, you know that we've done that. Now is the time for you to do more than simply claim that what we are discussing is a supernatural phenomenon instead.

If that cannot be done, then the matter is settled. The answer is either that which we have been telling you...or else it's "No one knows."

 

[Major1]

Because the phenomenon does not have a known scientific explanation. Every "explanation" is just a speculative hypothesis that has not been scientifically verified. Check this out: https://psychology.stackexchange.com/a/25800/25376



If you are so sure this is the explanation, why don't you post your explanation here: Is there a scientific explanation for dramatic body shaking and trembling in religious settings? (see videos for illustrative examples) ??

Spiritual happenings can not be verified with science.......they can however be observed.
If what we observe is different than what is the examples given in the Scriptures, then those observations must be challenged.

Why would I want to go to another web site and argue over what is not true??????

IF you and others want to believe that what you are suggesting is from God......then how in the world could I or anyone else change your opinion. Go right ahead and believe what you want to believe.

We, you and I have gone back and forth now several times. Have YOU personally come close to changing YOUR opinion on what I have said?????

See....that is what I mean.

Most people come to a forum like this with a preconceived agenda that they want to share with others. Those individuals are not here to learn or to grow in Biblical knowledge.

Then there is people like me who simply read the Bible as it is written to men as they are.

 

[Major1]

Well, you know that we've done that. Now is the time for you to do more than simply claim that what we are discussing is a supernatural phenomenon instead.

If that cannot be done, then the matter is settled. The answer is either that which we have been telling you...or else it's "No one knows."

Excellent reply and I agree completely.

 

[Major1]

Mass hysteria is the second hypothesis in this answer: https://psychology.stackexchange.com/a/25800/25376 (posted by a very reputable user from Psychology & Neuroscience StackExchange). Also, it is one of the hypotheses that got immediately dismissed in the same answer. The phenomenon does not have a scientific explanation, every hypothesis proposed is mere speculation.

Personally I do not think that "HYSTERIA " is the reason.

But "MASS HYPONOSIS" is more in line with what is seen in todays churches and gatherings.

If you are a member of a theatre audience and you are totally involved in the play that you are watching to the extent that, as we say, ‘you are getting right into it’, the likelihood is that you are in a trancelike state because your attention is very focused and you are no longer aware of anything that is going around you.

You know that you are in a suggestible state because your suspension of disbelief will have kicked in very soon after the curtain opened.

‘Influencers’ (good or bad) have been using this type of phenomenon and crowd dynamic for a very long time – ranging from religious leaders, politicians and salespeople, all the way through to stand-up comedians and film stars.

Whether the hypnotist is selling religion, laughter, politics, or merely a suspension of disbelief, there comes a time when suggestion can give way to manipulation. This is one of the most well-known negative aspects of the phenomenon.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Well, you know that we've done that.

I "know" you've done that? Really? I don't remember the post where you guys successfully explained this phenomenon, what is the post number?

But, again, I don't know why you keep resisting doing this. If you truly know a natural explanation for the phenomenon, it shouldn't be a problem for you to share your knowledge in a more rigorous setting like Psychology & Neuroscience StackExchange, right? It should only take you a few minutes to set up an account and quickly type a brief answer explaining the phenomenon.

Now is the time for you to do more than simply claim that what we are discussing is a supernatural phenomenon instead.

There is a technical problem when it comes to prove the supernatural through scientific means. The scientific method is designed to work with the natural world. There is no obvious way in which you can design scientific experiments to verify the supernatural. Even if you observe extreme outstanding phenomena like an amputee getting healed, someone making the Mount Everest levitate, a dead body in state of putrefaction coming back to life, etc., even if we observe extreme "miraculous" events like those, there is no way you can "prove" those events were supernaturally caused using the scientific method. Actually, the scientific method is not designed to prove things in a formal sense (like theorems in mathematics). Instead, science works with falsifiable hypotheses and experiments are carried out to test whether reality works as predicted by those hypotheses or not. How can you make a scientific experiment to test the supernatural?

Having said that, there is still a prediction you can make about a supernatural phenomenon. If a phenomenon is indeed supernatural, then you would expect that any attempt to provide a natural explanation should fail. It turns out that that's exactly what we see with shaking and trembling. When I ask people from Psychology & Neuroscience StackExchange to provide a scientific explanation for the phenomenon, no one knows, and the best they can propose is speculative ideas. Just take a look at the two answers posted so far.

If that cannot be done, then the matter is settled. The answer is either that which we have been telling you...or else it's "No one knows."

From a scientific, materialist point of view that's correct. But that would be also correct for amputees getting healed, mountains levitating in the air, putrid dead bodies coming back to life, etc. Either they would have a natural explanation, or "no one knows".

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Why would I want to go to another web site and argue over what is not true??????

The site I keep sharing is about providing a scientific explanation for the phenomenon. If you guys claim to know a natural explanation, that's the perfect place to share it. I don't see what's the problem in that.

IF you and others want to believe that what you are suggesting is from God......then how in the world could I or anyone else change your opinion. Go right ahead and believe what you want to believe.

I never claimed this is from God. It could be from God, but it could be demonic also. In both cases, it would still be supernatural though.

We, you and I have gone back and forth now several times. Have YOU personally come close to changing YOUR opinion on what I have said?????

Sorry, I'm replying to multiple people at the same time, so it's hard to know what specific claim of yours you want me to change my opinion about. Can you be more specific?

Most people come to a forum like this with a preconceived agenda that they want to share with others. Those individuals are not here to learn or to grow in Biblical knowledge.

Then there is people like me who simply read the Bible as it is written to men as they are.

I'm open to all opinions and ideas. But that doesn't mean I will blindly buy anything anyone says without proper justification. That doesn't mean I will reject everything either. If someone makes a very good case with good arguments, I don't see why I would have any problem acknowledging and accepting that.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Personally I do not think that "HYSTERIA " is the reason.

But "MASS HYPONOSIS" is more in line with what is seen in todays churches and gatherings.

Sorry to tell you, but hypnosis is the 7th hypothesis proposed in this answer, and it is also dismissed. Nevertheless, I remain open-minded. If you know good reasons to show that "mass hypnosis" is the cause, I would deeply appreciate it if you post your explanation on Psychology & Neuroscience StackExchange and let others peer-review your answer.

 

[TruthSeek3r]

Any known scientific explanation for this?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Cessationists: how do you explain the following videos?

I think we both know that NOTHING in the videos shows anything more than Physiological reactions to peer pressure, and NOTHING overtly miraculous at all. A Cessationist has no problem at all dismissing it all as "herd reaction to group suggestion". Nothing like the OVERT miraculous found in the Biblical accounts. Just folks having a good 'ol religious time with others so inclined.

"Explaining it" when you have personally decided that it's not "Real" is therefore no problem at all.