Cessationism question

[Biblicist]

That is your answer and defense???

As your replies tend to be full of misquotes and where you accuse me and other Christians of being a part of pagan worship, the you do make it rather easy to throw in a few quirky remarks from time to time; afterall, I though that my comparison of the cry's of the hard-core cessationist to that of the new born infant were pretty well spot on. Of course I meant no disrespect to the new born infant as they don't know any better!

 

[random person]

As your replies tend to be full of misquotes and where you accuse me and other Christians of being a part of pagan worship, the you do make it rather easy to throw in a few quirky remarks from time to time; afterall, I though that my comparison of the cry's of the hard-core cessationist to that of the new born infant were pretty well spot on. Of course I meant no disrespect to the new born infant as they don't know any better!

No, I said fashion of worship and glossolalia between pagan and charismatic christianity have all too similar of attributes.

Whether Wiccan, Voodoo, Neo-pagan, New Age, Kundalini Yoga, etc.

Dangerously similar by their pursuit to achieving endorphin-driven altered states of conscienceness and "runner's high" euphoria which charismatic christianity labels a "movement of the Holy Spirit", or "slain in the Spirit", or "holy laughter".

None of which is recorded and authenticated by the Bible.

 

[Biblicist]

If you choose to go along the rather tired old "Kundalini" line (for those who don't know who Kundalini is, he is not an Indian fast-food owner in New York), I can just as easily reply by saying that as hard-core cessationism, which is a system of unbelief that shares much the same viewpoints regarding the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit as does atheism, can I presume that hard-core cessationism and atheism are one and the same.

So maybe we should avoid silly comments and to stick to the Scriptures.

 

[random person]

If you choose to go along the rather tired old "Kundalini" line (for those who don't know who Kundalini is, he is not an Indian fast-food owner in New York), I can just as easily reply by saying that as hard-core cessationism, which is a system of unbelief that shares much the same viewpoints regarding the Person and Ministry of the Holy Spirit as does atheism, can I presume that hard-core cessationism and atheism are one and the same.

So maybe we should avoid silly comments and to stick to the Scriptures.

Cessationism isn't a system of hard-core unbelief, cessationism is a system of hard-core spiritual discernment.

Where is any of this biblical?

 

[Biblicist]

Cessationism isn't a system of hard-core unbelief, cessationism is a system of hard-core spiritual discernment.

Where is any of this biblical?

This would be a good time to ask, are you in the same grade at school as swordsman1?

 

[random person]

This would be a good time to ask, are you in the same grade at school as swordsman1?

Question?

Are these individuals in this video speaking tongues under the Holy Spirit? If yes, why the occult & voodoo quality to the worship? If no, how are these tongues distinguished from true tongues under the Holy Spirit? The second video is for comparitive purposes. (They sound like the same gibberish to me!)

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I think there are two times of darkness when people cannot work, such as when Jesus was in the tomb and when the saints are under the power of the anti-christ.

 

[FredVB]

People were certainly working at jobs through that one time, and surely there will be people working at jobs in the other time that is coming. Perhaps the issue is only any doing godly works. Those who had followed Christ did not renounce any godly ways they had come to, but the reality of the resurrection to provide for strengthening them in their faith for the resolve had yet to come, when that was manifested. In coming time when the Antichrist person is in power he will not have full power over all, and really not for those repenting and coming to Yahweh God, trusting in Christ, when they do such.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Well yes I meant work Jesus commanded.

 

[FredVB]

I figured it was indeed things Jesus commanded. I don't see that his followers gave up on living with the commandments when he was taken and killed, they understood still that these were from God. They were only going to be empowered for it after the resurrection, when the gospel truth was made manifest.

In the same way, when new believers come to Christ with that essential trust, the Spirit is with them and they are enabled, as they learn, to be obedient to the ways of living in Christ. This happens even if in such time that believers have been taken out and there is time of great tribulation still, with some empowered in that time to spread the gospel as such is written, as persecution grows, and judgment will come. It is promised to all that hearing the gospel of salvation in Christ become believers.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

It would seem the disciples before they were apostles were timid and hid during the time Jesus was taken from them. They were sad and despairing. They did not commit adultery, but they were no longer fishing for men. They only just understood that Jesus was the Messiah, and salvation would not come by violent means.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Hi

I am a former continuationist, having reformed in the last year. It was quite a lengthy process and I remained theoretically continuationist until recently. My position had become all but fixed when I came across a verse which could feasibly be the final nail in the proverbial coffin if I understand it correctly.

The verse in question is John 9:4 - "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work". Its context is one of Jesus' healing miracles, and I understand it to mean that the darkness is the cessation of spiritual sign gifts. I tried to consider if it was an eschatological verse, but the context keeps drawing me back here.

I know that this is a touchy and controversial subject so I am probably inviting lots of heat by mentioning it, but I'd like if someone could explain the verse and clarify whether it speaks to this or something else.

Thanks

No one in the History of Christianity has interpreted that verse the way you are. So, it is likely you are just reading into the text what is not there.

 

[com7fy8]

Well, Jesus says "no man" will be able to work.

But a child of God always can do whatsoever God pleases. Evil can not stop God's grace from having us do what He desires, because His grace is almighty > consider 2 Corinthians 12:7-15.

So, it is written >

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

So, if there is a time on earth when "no man can work", I consider this means there are no Christians on the earth at that time. Because children of God would be able to do God's work.

So, I can see that this statement is not related to if spiritual gifts will operate or not. It has nothing to do with it . . . whether the gifts stop or not > this scripture is not related to the subject, I think.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

No one in the History of Christianity has interpreted that verse the way you are. So, it is likely you are just reading into the text what is not there.

I am inclined to think this time is the time when either Jesus was in the tomb, or the time to come when grace is replaced by patience and wrath before Jesus returns. Also at this time, the anti-Christ will be strong, and the church will be underground and unable to work, maybe bartering...

 

[com7fy8]

Also at this time, the anti-Christ will be strong, and the church will be underground and unable to work, maybe bartering...

Oh . . . money-making work in order to get food. I did not think of this possibility

But, by the way, even if there is the anti-Christ reign making it legal only for marked people to buy or sell . . . also, there can be God's tribulation against evil people, making it as hard as He pleases for them to mess with God's people. And ones of Satan's kingdom could be dying and leaving behind houses and cars and food . . . and children for us to adopt and bring up in Jesus. The ones who really have it hard, then, would be the ones subjected to God's wrath judgments. And, like I say, who would need to buy anything, if dead sinners are leaving behind what they have used for food and transportation and shelter? You might be able to pick your car or donkey, each day.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

It is like reading about your family, your father and brother and friend, and you say you have hard core discernment, then you meet your father unintroduced for the first time, and you don't like him, he is playful and uncool, so you deny he is the one you read about.

We no longer have to search scripture to find the Messiah. We are not like the Jews of old. Now we ask and receive and experience Him. Jesus was scriptural in His day. It was not clear to them. He did new things and Pentecost was new, the Bible is full of new things, one after the other. It does not finish there, the second coming will be new as well. Many will not recognize Him, and there will be a battle.

 

[com7fy8]

Now we ask and receive and experience Him.

He did new things and Pentecost was new, the Bible is full of new things, one after the other.

Even if God is still doing spiritual gift ministry, there can be people who are only copy-staying with what they have already seen, and they are not going and growing on in Jesus.

I have known personally someone who would praise a certain person and ministry, with its dynamic activity, but at home the person was lonely and bored and feeling like that one was missing out on so much.

I have had one say God's love is not enough. But God's love effects our character so we become submissive so we can connect with other really humble and all-loving people. And the real gifts minister this to us > 1 Peter 4:9-10. The real gifts do not only or mainly call us to certain times and places, and they do not mainly call our money to certain people. But God's gifts minister His own grace which effects our character to become like Jesus . . . while those gifts also can have us doing different miraculous things > but, deeper, they are ministering the effect of God's own love > 1 John 4:17-18.

 

[Job8]

I see no evidence in the NT that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were to end

There are two kinds of gifts -- the sign gifts and the gifts for the edification of the Church. The sign gifts were for the apostles and the apostolic period, particularly while the New Testament was being completed. But Paul made it crystal clear that at least three gifts (all related to Divine revelations) would cease --prophecies, tongues, supernatural knowledge (1 Cor 13:8).

We should never forget that "the Jews require a sign" therefore signs were primarily to prove to the Jews that the Gospel was from Heaven. There came a time when the Jews would not respond to the Gospel, so Paul turned to the Gentiles. And even Paul's ability to perform miracles began to wane, as we see in the case of Epaphroditus and Timothy. Then we have James telling Christians to call for the elders of the church and ask for the prayer of faith.

The gifts for the ministry of the Word and the edification of the saints are still valid. Since there are about 20 spiritual gifts, only the sign gifts have ceased. If this were not so, then (for example) every church in the world should have at least one person who had the gift of healing miraculously. But that is far from the case.

Modern tongues are a very recent phenomenon, and for almost 1900 years tongues were more or less extinct. Modern tongues are also not genuine languages spoken supernaturally, but basically babbling hence glossolalia instead of glossais.

 

[FireDragon76]

Paul was using those three as examples that will find their fulfillment in the eschaton, where prophecy or knowledge will be fulfilled. He was not making a claim that those gifts would cease in this age.

There could be a lot of reasons why "every church" doesn't have those with the gift of healing, other than Cessationism being true.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

There are two kinds of gifts -- the sign gifts and the gifts for the edification of the Church. The sign gifts were for the apostles and the apostolic period, particularly while the New Testament was being completed. But Paul made it crystal clear that at least three gifts (all related to Divine revelations) would cease --prophecies, tongues, supernatural knowledge (1 Cor 13:8).

Paul in ch 13 spoke of gifts passing away, not with the death of John the apostle, but because they would be found imperfect after a long time and a greater revelation, probably the second coming of Christ.

The gifts go on in mention after John dies for centuries. The gifts were in use by gentiles who had lesser revelation of God than the apostles so they all used gifts but the apostles writings are solid revelation. Paul taught for hearing that the gifts be spoken one after the other, that is order. Paul described his own letters as a dim mirror reflection.