Cessationism question

[KingNoz]

Hi

I am a former continuationist, having reformed in the last year. It was quite a lengthy process and I remained theoretically continuationist until recently. My position had become all but fixed when I came across a verse which could feasibly be the final nail in the proverbial coffin if I understand it correctly.

The verse in question is John 9:4 - "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work". Its context is one of Jesus' healing miracles, and I understand it to mean that the darkness is the cessation of spiritual sign gifts. I tried to consider if it was an eschatological verse, but the context keeps drawing me back here.

I know that this is a touchy and controversial subject so I am probably inviting lots of heat by mentioning it, but I'd like if someone could explain the verse and clarify whether it speaks to this or something else.

Thanks

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hi

I am a former continuationist, having reformed in the last year. It was quite a lengthy process and I remained theoretically continuationist until recently. My position had become all but fixed when I came across a verse which could feasibly be the final nail in the proverbial coffin if I understand it correctly.

The verse in question is John 9:4 - "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work". Its context is one of Jesus' healing miracles, and I understand it to mean that the darkness is the cessation of spiritual sign gifts. I tried to consider if it was an eschatological verse, but the context keeps drawing me back here.

I know that this is a touchy and controversial subject so I am probably inviting lots of heat by mentioning it, but I'd like if someone could explain the verse and clarify whether it speaks to this or something else.

Thanks

Remember that Jesus was speaking to unconverted Jews under the Old Covenant. At that time there were no sign gifts, because these were still to come with the arrival of the Holy Spirit. Also, Jesus was talking about Himself. He makes no mention of what He was saying as applying to anyone else. The instructions He gave to His disciples was to "go into all the world and make disciples of every nation." He also said, "the works I do, you shall do also, even greater works because I go to the Father." He also said, "As I am in the world, so will you be." Jesus does not contradict Himself. He would not say that the sign gifts were going to cease one time, and then say that His disciples could do the same works as He did.

Church history makes nonsense of the Cessationist theory. Firstly, there is no actual scripture that says that the miraculous will pass away before the Second Coming of Christ. If the miraculous gifts were meant to be temporary, Jesus, Paul, and Peter would have said so. They didn't.

Also, all the Church Fathers right through to the Fourth Century reported miraculous healings and casting out of demons. St Benedict in the 12 Century raised an injured worker from the dead through prayer. George Fox, the Quaker reported numerous miraculous healings. John Wesley had 250 reported genuine miraculous healings during his ministry. Even his horse was instantly healed of lameness at one time as the result of prayer.

To me, the Cessationist position is ludicrous, because it makes liars out of all the Church Fathers and men and women of God through the centuries, and the thousands upon thousands of modern day testimonies of miraculous healings of all types of incurable medical conditions. The evidence is overwhelming if one is minded to do the research, as I have.

Without the miraculous power of God backing the Gospel, all the preaching is just empty, powerless words. There is nothing magic in the quoting of scripture. You can quote it to people until the cows come home and you will see no results. But get a person healed of terminal cancer, and you will see all that person's family and friends come to Christ when the Gospel is shared with them, because they will see the compassion of the real Jesus, instead of the counterfeit cessationist one.

I don't care how religious a person is, or how much "Christian" theory he has, if he is cessationist, then he is not a genuine representative of Jesus. A true representative of Jesus in the world is one who follows the example of Christ in not only His teaching, but in the miraculous works He did as well. Jesus was moved with compassion when He healed the sick and cast out demons. He is still the compassionate Jesus working through believers today through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Cessationists are full of religious theory but they lack the compassion that motivated Jesus to heal the sick, and they would rather see a person die a agonising slow death through cancer than believe sufficiently that Jesus can cause that person to recover if they activated the scripture "They shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." Show me a cessationist and I will see a person who does not have the spirit of Christ. Someone who has the spirit of Christ will be moved with compassion and will want to do everything they can to use the resources that God has provided through the Holy Spirit to set the captives free and to heal the afflicted.

 

[KingNoz]

Hi Oscarr,

Thanks for your gracious response. I found some of your points to to be compelling, and am willing to consider the possibility of the miraculous throughout history. You have also given me something to think about as regards the context of the passage.

However, I disagree with your understanding of "greater works", with your characterisation of cessationists and of the work and power of Holy Spirit. I don't wish to argue, and I knew that I needed to expect responses like yours by even raising the issue.

Thanks for your response, and I'll take it into consideration.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hi

I am a former continuationist, having reformed in the last year. It was quite a lengthy process and I remained theoretically continuationist until recently. My position had become all but fixed when I came across a verse which could feasibly be the final nail in the proverbial coffin if I understand it correctly.

The verse in question is John 9:4 - "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work". Its context is one of Jesus' healing miracles, and I understand it to mean that the darkness is the cessation of spiritual sign gifts. I tried to consider if it was an eschatological verse, but the context keeps drawing me back here.

I know that this is a touchy and controversial subject so I am probably inviting lots of heat by mentioning it, but I'd like if someone could explain the verse and clarify whether it speaks to this or something else.

Thanks

Here is a comment from the Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges (a 50+ volume commentary by scholars gathered by Cambridge university press).

John 9:4

I must work, &c.] The reading here is somewhat doubtful, as to whether ‘I’ or ‘we,’ ‘Me’ or ‘us’ is right in each case. The best authorities give, We must work the works of Him that sent Me, and this, the more difficult reading, is probably correct. Some copyists altered ‘we’ into ‘I’ to make it agree with ‘Me,’ others altered ‘Me’ into ‘us’ to make it agree with ‘we.’

‘We must work:’ Christ identifies Himself with His disciples in the work of converting the world. ‘Him that sent Me:’ Christ does not identify His mission with that of the disciples. They were both sent, but not in the same sense. So also He says ‘My Father’ and ‘your Father,’ ‘My God’ and ‘your God;’ but not ‘our Father,’ or ‘our God’ (Joh 20:17).

while it is day] Or, so long as it is day, i. e. so long as we have life. Day and night here mean, as so often in literature of all kinds, life and death. Other explanations, e.g. opportune and inopportune moments, the presence of Christ in the world and His withdrawal from it,—are less simple and less suitable to the context. If all that is recorded from Joh 7:37 takes place on one day, these words would probably be spoken in the evening, when the failing light would add force to the warning, night cometh (no article), when no one can work. ‘No one;’ not even Christ Himself as man upon earth: comp. Joh 11:7-10; Psa 104:23.​

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hi Oscarr,

Thanks for your gracious response. I found some of your points to to be compelling, and am willing to consider the possibility of the miraculous throughout history. You have also given me something to think about as regards the context of the passage.

However, I disagree with your understanding of "greater works", with your characterisation of cessationists and of the work and power of Holy Spirit. I don't wish to argue, and I knew that I needed to expect responses like yours by even raising the issue.

Thanks for your response, and I'll take it into consideration.

Please excuse my humour on the other Cessationist thread. I don't mean it personally. It's just that I have a wacky sense of fun about these things.

 

[KingNoz]

@MoreCoffee
Thank you for the information, that's really helpful. I'd never heard of that particular commentary; would you recommend it for further reference?

 

[MoreCoffee]

@MoreCoffee
Thank you for the information, that's really helpful. I'd never heard of that particular commentary; would you recommend it for further reference?

Yes, it is good reading and rather well executed and it seems to deal with passages for what they say rather than trying to force them into a particular theological tradition.

It is available for e-sword here >>> http://www.biblesupport.com/e-sword...ridge-bible-for-schools-and-colleges-54-vols/

 

[Danoh]

Remember that Jesus was speaking to unconverted Jews under the Old Covenant. At that time there were no sign gifts, because these were still to come with the arrival of the Holy Spirit. Also, Jesus was talking about Himself. He makes no mention of what He was saying as applying to anyone else. The instructions He gave to His disciples was to "go into all the world and make disciples of every nation." He also said, "the works I do, you shall do also, even greater works because I go to the Father." He also said, "As I am in the world, so will you be." Jesus does not contradict Himself. He would not say that the sign gifts were going to cease one time, and then say that His disciples could do the same works as He did.

Church history makes nonsense of the Cessationist theory. Firstly, there is no actual scripture that says that the miraculous will pass away before the Second Coming of Christ. If the miraculous gifts were meant to be temporary, Jesus, Paul, and Peter would have said so. They didn't.

Also, all the Church Fathers right through to the Fourth Century reported miraculous healings and casting out of demons. St Benedict in the 12 Century raised an injured worker from the dead through prayer. George Fox, the Quaker reported numerous miraculous healings. John Wesley had 250 reported genuine miraculous healings during his ministry. Even his horse was instantly healed of lameness at one time as the result of prayer.

To me, the Cessationist position is ludicrous, because it makes liars out of all the Church Fathers and men and women of God through the centuries, and the thousands upon thousands of modern day testimonies of miraculous healings of all types of incurable medical conditions. The evidence is overwhelming if one is minded to do the research, as I have.

Without the miraculous power of God backing the Gospel, all the preaching is just empty, powerless words. There is nothing magic in the quoting of scripture. You can quote it to people until the cows come home and you will see no results. But get a person healed of terminal cancer, and you will see all that person's family and friends come to Christ when the Gospel is shared with them, because they will see the compassion of the real Jesus, instead of the counterfeit cessationist one.

I don't care how religious a person is, or how much "Christian" theory he has, if he is cessationist, then he is not a genuine representative of Jesus. A true representative of Jesus in the world is one who follows the example of Christ in not only His teaching, but in the miraculous works He did as well. Jesus was moved with compassion when He healed the sick and cast out demons. He is still the compassionate Jesus working through believers today through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Cessationists are full of religious theory but they lack the compassion that motivated Jesus to heal the sick, and they would rather see a person die a agonising slow death through cancer than believe sufficiently that Jesus can cause that person to recover if they activated the scripture "They shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." Show me a cessationist and I will see a person who does not have the spirit of Christ. Someone who has the spirit of Christ will be moved with compassion and will want to do everything they can to use the resources that God has provided through the Holy Spirit to set the captives free and to heal the afflicted.

That's all fine and wonderful but it reads throughout as your understanding of the issue from sources mostly outside the Scriptural narrative read into the Scriptural narrative.

The issue is not a simple one to address for many on either side.

And straying from what Scripture has to say on it, and that from within its own narrative, will only take one further away from finding its Scriptural answer.

Not to mention, that such is also the case when a passage or two is taken out of its narrative for what it appears to assert on its own.

The issue is not one easily answered and learning how to study Scripture from Scripture itself in contrast to books about it, is paramount.

The Bible is a Big Book for a reason - because not only is It Its Own best "commentary" on Itself, as to what's what, but is self-sufficient to said task, and then some, 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That's all fine and wonderful but it reads throughout as your understanding of the issue from sources mostly outside the Scriptural narrative read into the Scriptural narrative.

The issue is not a simple one to address for many on either side.

And straying from what Scripture has to say on it, and that from within its own narrative, will only take one further away from finding its Scriptural answer.

Not to mention, that such is also the case when a passage or two is taken out of its narrative for what it appears to assert on its own.

The issue is not one easily answered and learning how to study Scripture from Scripture itself in contrast to books about it, is paramount.

The Bible is a Big Book for a reason - because not only is It Its Own best "commentary" on Itself, as to what's what, but is self-sufficient to said task, and then some, 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.

I see your point. Well then, show me anything in the Scriptural narrative where Jesus, Paul, or John made any statements that would clearly say that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit were ever meant just to be temporary, or that they were meant only for the lifetime of the 12 Apostles, or at some time when a canon of Scripture (which none of these ones had any perception of, because it is never mentioned), is complete.

If you cannot find any statement from any of these ones that says, "These gifts are only temporary", then you cannot prove the veracity of Cessationism from Scripture.

 

[com7fy8]

Hi

I am a former continuationist, having reformed in the last year. It was quite a lengthy process and I remained theoretically continuationist until recently. My position had become all but fixed when I came across a verse which could feasibly be the final nail in the proverbial coffin if I understand it correctly.

The verse in question is John 9:4 - "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work". Its context is one of Jesus' healing miracles, and I understand it to mean that the darkness is the cessation of spiritual sign gifts. I tried to consider if it was an eschatological verse, but the context keeps drawing me back here.

Our Father sent Jesus to work the works of our Father who sent Him. I understand those works were healings, yes, and multiplying bread and fish, and preaching the gospel. When John the Baptist asked Jesus if He is the One, Jesus included preaching the gospel, in His works which could show He is the One > Matthew 11:1-15.

So, do you think preaching has ceased?

About the "greater works" > a physical healing of the body is a great work. But I think forgiving (Ephesians 4:32) is greater than only a physical healing. And ministering each other into the image of Jesus is greater (Ephesians 4:29, 1 Peter 4:9-10). And if mutual confession with mutual prayer (James 5:16) gets us "healed" into the character of God's own love, certainly this is greater than any outward miracle.

 

[FireDragon76]

I see your point. Well then, show me anything in the Scriptural narrative where Jesus, Paul, or John made any statements that would clearly say that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit were ever meant just to be temporary, or that they were meant only for the lifetime of the 12 Apostles, or at some time when a canon of Scripture (which none of these ones had any perception of, because it is never mentioned), is complete.

I see no evidence in the NT that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were to end. The arguments all seem to rest on assumptions about ecclesiology and pneumatology found outside the Scriptures.

I think a lot of western Christians started to believe the gifts had ceased due to the profound religious lukewarmness that fell over Europe after the Reformation. Lutheran/Calvinist Orthodoxy and the 30 years war severely degraded the moral character of the average European peasant. To say nothing of the fact that some of the attitudes of the Reformers were quasi-cessationist, in some cases a consequence of their rejection of Roman Catholic practices (for instance, many miracles in the middle ages were associated with the relics or intercession of saints).

 

[random person]

The Gifts of the Holy Spirit were given a deadline. The Last Days of Israel.

I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men. Micah 2:12

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call. Joel 2:28-32

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:16-21

Therefore night shall be unto you, that ye shall not have a vision; and it shall be dark unto you, that ye shall not divine; and the sun shall go down over the prophets, and the day shall be dark over them. Micah 3:6

Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of the house as the high places of the forest. Micah 3:12

According to the days of thy coming out of the land of Egypt will I shew unto him marvellous things. Micah 7:15

The gifts of the Holy Spirits such as tongues, prophecy, etc ceased in a 40 year period which is called the Last Days, End of the Age, it was given the same length of time as the signs and wonders in the 40 years Israel spent in the wilderness. It began on Pentecost and ended in A.D. 70 with the destruction of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Mosaic economy.

What is transpiring in the charismatic movement is faux gifts that amount to abunch of nonsensical gibberish and false prophecying that edify nobody and nothing. Escape from it while you still can.

 

[KingNoz]

These are all great points, thank you all for your input.
I have studied the subject from Scripture and church history, and have come down on the side of cessationism; not to say that God doesn't work today because I know He does, but that He doesn't gift persons to do signs at will as did the Apostles. I also grant that the verse I quoted from John's gospel doesn't mean what I suggested and that preaching is of course a work that hasn't ceased
Thanks again, you've all been a great help.

 

[random person]

These are all great points, thank you all for your input.
I have studied the subject from Scripture and church history, and have come down on the side of cessationism; not to say that God doesn't work today because I know He does, but that He doesn't gift persons to do signs at will as did the Apostles. I also grant that the verse I quoted from John's gospel doesn't mean what I suggested and that preaching is of course a work that hasn't ceased
Thanks again, you've all been a great help.

I am glad you've investigated this things and I like the conclusions you came to.

The prophecy of Joel was fulfilled on that very Day of Pentecost and would continue for a whole generation.

We don't need tongues and prophecy anymore because we have translations and the complete word of God.

Tongues was to empower the Apostles and their disciples to carry the Gospel to all nations and tongues, as a witness for Christ.

What the Charismatics have done is inverted this, it is no longer used to communicate to others in their tongues but create confusion within the church's services.

Are they performing a Great Commission with their tongues reaching out to the community, are they ministering to the Spanish communities, the Arab communities, the Russian communities, etc, etc? Or would that even be necessary today seeing the Bible has been translated into nearly every language represented by churches to all ethnics?

 

[Biblicist]

Tongues was to empower the Apostles and their disciples to carry the Gospel to all nations and tongues, as a witness for Christ.

The odd thing about this old wives tale is that we have absolutely no evidence that the Holy Spirit has ever spoken a Gospel message through anyone. Most people will try to say that what the 120 were speaking on the Day of Pentecost was such a message but what the Holy Spirit was doing was to speak praise directly to God which the nearby crowd heard as disjointed sentences about the wonders of God.

If Peter had not provided a Gospel message in Aramaic then the day would have been lost, where the crowd would have dispersed thinking that these strange Galileans had maybe each rehearsed a few sentences in a particular language.

As tongues has absolutely no value with presenting the Gospel, where Paul says in 1Cor 14:2 " For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his S/spirit he speaks mysteries", then maybe the following description by Peter Althouse regarding the purpose of tongues might help you to better understand why this act of proclamation through the Eschatological Spirit has been given to us; Althouse expands further on Pauls statement in 1Cor 14:16 where Paul says that when we pray in the Spirit (tongues) that we are "giving thanks in the Spirit"

"The Pentecost narrative of Acts 2 is an eschatological event, in which the coming of the resurrection Spirit renews the covenantal community in anticipation of the parousia, and tongues is a theophanic sign of divine self-disclosure like that of the burning bush in the calling of Moses and the giving of the Law. As an eschatological foretaste, speaking in tongues is a cry for liberation, a ‘cry of abandonment; which symbolizes the liberating force of the Spirit in breaking down racial, gender and class barriers. Glossolalia embodies an equalizing impulse in leveling all languages and human strivings, pointing to the inauguration of divine justice and mercy in its ''groaning" for the suffering of creation yearning for liberation".​

 

[Biblicist]

The prophecy of Joel was fulfilled on that very Day of Pentecost and would continue for a whole generation.

So you are suggesting that where we are told in Acts 2:39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself", that the Greek (μακράν) makran is speaking of merely a single generation and not to the Parousia where we see the return of Christ?

 

[random person]

The odd thing about this old wives tale is that we have absolutely no evidence that the Holy Spirit has ever spoken a Gospel message through anyone. Most people will try to say that what the 120 were speaking on the Day of Pentecost was such a message but what the Holy Spirit was doing was to speak praise directly to God which the nearby crowd heard as disjointed sentences about the wonders of God.

If Peter had not provided a Gospel message in Aramaic then the day would have been lost, where the crowd would have dispersed thinking that these strange Galileans had maybe each rehearsed a few sentences in a particular language.

As tongues has absolutely no value with presenting the Gospel, where Paul says in 1Cor 14:2 " For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his S/spirit he speaks mysteries", then maybe the following description by Peter Althouse regarding the purpose of tongues might help you to better understand why this act of proclamation through the Eschatological Spirit has been given to us; Althouse expands further on Pauls statement in 1Cor 14:16 where Paul says that when we pray in the Spirit (tongues) that we are "giving thanks in the Spirit"

"The Pentecost narrative of Acts 2 is an eschatological event, in which the coming of the resurrection Spirit renews the covenantal community in anticipation of the parousia, and tongues is a theophanic sign of divine self-disclosure like that of the burning bush in the calling of Moses and the giving of the Law. As an eschatological foretaste, speaking in tongues is a cry for liberation, a ‘cry of abandonment; which symbolizes the liberating force of the Spirit in breaking down racial, gender and class barriers. Glossolalia embodies an equalizing impulse in leveling all languages and human strivings, pointing to the inauguration of divine justice and mercy in its ''groaning" for the suffering of creation yearning for liberation".​

How did you miss this part of Acts 2?

The Coming of the Holy Spirit
When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and resteda on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language. And they were amazed and astonished, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? Parthians and Medes and Elamites and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya belonging to Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabians—we hear them telling in our own tongues the mighty works of God.” And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”

1 Corinthians 14:1-33

Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

Orderly Worship

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.​

 

[random person]

So you are suggesting that where we are told in Acts 2:39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself", that the Greek (μακράν) makran is speaking of merely a single generation and not to the Parousia where we see the return of Christ?

I am a preterist, and offered plenty of examples to support my view in my first post in this thread.

The Charismatic movement just speaks gibberish and do not edify their church and they suffer from the same ego as the Corinthians did in that they elevate tongues above all the other gifts and it is not even the greatest of the gifts.

Some of these charismatic churches treat those that do not speak in tongues as second rate citizens of the Kingdom, forcing them to produce this "manifestation", they even been known to school the unlearned how to speak in tongues, ahem, help them along in a private session by tutoring them in tongue speaking.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Hi

I am a former continuationist, having reformed in the last year. It was quite a lengthy process and I remained theoretically continuationist until recently. My position had become all but fixed when I came across a verse which could feasibly be the final nail in the proverbial coffin if I understand it correctly.

The verse in question is John 9:4 - "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work". Its context is one of Jesus' healing miracles, and I understand it to mean that the darkness is the cessation of spiritual sign gifts. I tried to consider if it was an eschatological verse, but the context keeps drawing me back here.

I know that this is a touchy and controversial subject so I am probably inviting lots of heat by mentioning it, but I'd like if someone could explain the verse and clarify whether it speaks to this or something else.

Thanks

John 9:4 is speaking figuratively, the time he speaks of is when Judas betrays him in which Jesus says this is your hour when darkness reigns.

 

[random person]

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

1 Corinthians 13:8