Cessationism question

[1stcenturylady]

So what NIV are you quoting? I have no idea what copyright date is on my computer software version, and the Ryrie bible from Moody was copyrighted in 1984. So if your NIV is of a later date it just goes to show you that capitalization of spirit is not the exact science most give translators the credit for...IMO.

It is on biblegateway.com

 

[Biblicist]

You're still "bad", you never answered my question. Is a 'cuppa' a cup of coffee, tea, anything in a cup...or what?

Yes, a good ol' cuppa is indeed a cup of tea or coffee.

 

[Biblicist]

So what NIV are you quoting? I have no idea what copyright date is on my computer software version, and the Ryrie bible from Moody was copyrighted in 1984. So if your NIV is of a later date it just goes to show you that capitalization of spirit is not the exact science most give translators the credit for...IMO.

You and 1stcenturylady might find the following graphic to be of some interest as it shows how a number of translation committees have employed the Greek word pneumati. What is often (or always) of interest is with what the various committee's have decided to place in a footnote. It is often said that the best option usually goes in the footnote and for political or Denominational reasons another choice goes in the main body of the text.

The graphic includes 31 translation and I chose to use the PNG format so that the formatting would not be altered once I pasted the material.
As BibleWorks use some unfamiliar Bible version codes at the start of each passage, I have included a cross-reference to those versions that are relevant at the bottom of the page.

NB. I missed the CSBO code:

Holman Christian Standard Bible®. Copyright © 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003, 2005 by Holman Bible Publishers.​

 

[Hillsage]

What is often (or always) of interest is with what the various committee's have decided to place in a footnote. It is often said that the best option usually goes in the footnote and for political or Denominational reasons another choice goes in the main body of the text.

I find your bolded comment above to be so true and yet so sad. "political or Denominational reasons" just shows how nebulous this whole thing can really be IMO. So when brethren 'fight' (pretty viciously sometimes) over positional differences of opinions, it's really the 'Devil's win' IMO. To call brethren heretics or question our salvation and intellect just because we disagree on the 'commandments/doctrines of men' is wrong. Thanks for the 'graphic' info. Bibby.

PS, just finished my morning cuppa java.

 

[Biblicist]

I find your bolded comment above to be so true and yet so sad. "political or Denominational reasons" just shows how nebulous this whole thing can really be IMO. So when brethren 'fight' (pretty viciously sometimes) over positional differences of opinions, it's really the 'Devil's win' IMO. To call brethren heretics or question our salvation and intellect just because we disagree on the 'commandments/doctrines of men' is wrong. Thanks for the 'graphic' info. Bibby.

PS, just finished my morning cuppa java.

When I regularly undertake a verse analysis such as this, which only requires a single click on my BibleWorks program, it usually reveals some interesting tidbits about the thoughts of the various translation committees down through the years. A good example is with the Geneva Bible and its notes (~1560) which reflects the views of the early Reformers such as Calvin and between 1642 and 1715, eight editions of the KJV were published with Geneva notes.

Even though some of the notes range from the sublime to the naive, when it comes to 1Cor 14:2 this means that for those of the day who were interested, they would have noticed that the translators were pointing to the Holy Spirit as the agency/source of tongues, but for those who did not have access to the notes then this would have probably been lost on them.

Geneva Notes: The Geneva Bible Translation Notes [1599]: 1 Corinthians: 1 Corinthians Chapter 14

KJG 1 Corinthians 14:2 1 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the 3 spirit he speaketh mysteries.

§ [Geneva Notes] (3) By that inspiration which he has received of the Spirit, which nonetheless he abuses, when he speaks mysteries which none of the company can understand.​

Even though the various translation committees have chosen to use either an upper or lower case 's' for pneuma, we still cannot tell from either the text or even the notes if they were viewing Paul's use of pneuma from within the mindset of either a Dichotomy or a Trichotomy.

In an earlier post I made mention that this discussion can be important for both the Pentecostal and the charismatic as it has a strong bearing on the teachings that come out of certain Full Gospel circles.

Here in Melbourne (Australia) the time is 7.36 am Friday where in Kansas it is now 3.36 pm (?) Thursday, which means for me at least another cuppa is about due.

​

 

[Hillsage]

When I regularly undertake a verse analysis such as this, which only requires a single click on my BibleWorks program, it usually reveals some interesting tidbits about the thoughts of the various translation committees down through the years. A good example is with the Geneva Bible and its notes (~1560) which reflects the views of the early Reformers such as Calvin and between 1642 and 1715, eight editions of the KJV were published with Geneva notes.

Even though some of the notes range from the sublime to the naive, when it comes to 1Cor 14:2 this means that for those of the day who were interested, they would have noticed that the translators were pointing to the Holy Spirit as the agency/source of tongues, but for those who did not have access to the notes then this would have probably been lost on them.

Geneva Notes: The Geneva Bible Translation Notes [1599]: 1 Corinthians: 1 Corinthians Chapter 14

KJG 1 Corinthians 14:2 1 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the 3 spirit he speaketh mysteries.

§ [Geneva Notes] (3) By that inspiration which he has received of the Spirit, which nonetheless he abuses, when he speaks mysteries which none of the company can understand.​

Even though the various translation committees have chosen to use either an upper or lower case 's' for pneuma, we still cannot tell from either the text or even the notes if they were viewing Paul's use of pneuma from within the mindset of either a Dichotomy or a Trichotomy.

In an earlier post I made mention that this discussion can be important for both the Pentecostal and the charismatic as it has a strong bearing on the teachings that come out of certain Full Gospel circles.

​

I wish this was just a 'single click' for me, which it isn't, so I'm just going to type Bullinger's comment from his book 'Word Studies on the Holy Spirit', concerning verse 14:2;

14:2 "Howbeit, in pneuma, he speaketh mysteries" (or secret things). Here, there is no article, and the subject of the whole context is spiritual gifts, and especially the gift of "speaking with tongues." Both Versions have "s."

He distinguishes the capitalization based upon the 'presence or absence' in the Greek, of a 'definite article', . Though some times it is in a 'contextual presence' which is not as easily found for nimrods like me, who don't read Greek. But he isn't a nimrod and explains those difficult passages. It's amazing how many times a Greek Interlinear adds the definite article parenthetically [the] under pneuma in the Greek and then capitalizes spirit in the transliterated English.

Is Bullinger's POV 100% in application and explanation of all difficult verses IMO? The answer is NO!....nothing ever is, concerning this subject IMO. When he speaks above of "Both versions have a small "s" he is referring to the KJV translations which were available when he lived (1837-1913) and the many times they waffled on capitalization and definitely influenced by prior indoctrinations as 'have nots'.

Upon first getting his book it was truly interesting how many times Bullinger pointed out the inconsistent capitalizations of spirit there were in the KJV, when he compared them between the 1611 A.V. version to the R.V. version. That point was a definite eye opener for me 30 years ago. And it also opened me up to hearing God for 'more' since He is really the only one who truly knows for sure concerning all this, which we 'armchair intellects' talk about.

Even as you pointed out in your previous post; What indoctrination do you think Calvin would have injected in his 'margin notes'? Did he strive to elevate his 'experience' to that of the bible, or did he strive to bring the bible down to his level, as a renowned theologian, and that level of a 'non experiencial' 'have not'? I don't really accuse him of 'thinking more highly of himself than he ought'...mind you...I just think he believed he was not thinking 'more lowly' than he ought either, like so many smart theologians.

In Bullinger's book which is still in print after a hundred years, I just have to smile every time I hear you say anything prior to 1980 is 'lesser'. I say that because of the FOREWARD in Bullinger's latest printing which I bought circa '92'. And a FOREWARD which I also will have to type word for word.

FOREWARD
The emphasis in recent years on the doctrine of the Holy Spirit has helped to produce a great number of books on that subject. Some of these books are immature and will not last. Their theology (to borrow a phrase from P.T. Forsyth) is “like a bad photograph-over-exposed and under-deveoloped.” But a few books have made a definite contribution to the subject and will surely last. Word Studies on the Holy Spirit is one of the older works that has had a steady ministry and is sure to last.

WARREN W. WIERSBE

FYI: [Warren was born 1929, a former pastor of Moody Church as well as an author of over 160 books]

Here in Melbourne (Australia) the time is 7.36 am Friday where in Kansas it is now 3.36 pm (?) Thursday, which means for me at least another cuppa is about due.

So....is that cuppa, of yours....black? Or are you like me, so much sugar and cream it's a joke to call it a 'cup a Joe' when it 'so much more' resembles a 'cup a Josephine'?

 

[Biblicist]

I wish this was just a 'single click' for me, which it isn't, so I'm just going to type Bullinger's comment from his book 'Word Studies on the Holy Spirit', concerning verse 14:2;

14:2 "Howbeit, in pneuma, he speaketh mysteries" (or secret things). Here, there is no article, and the subject of the whole context is spiritual gifts, and especially the gift of "speaking with tongues." Both Versions have "s."

He distinguishes the capitalization based upon the 'presence or absence' in the Greek, of a 'definite article', . Though some times it is in a 'contextual presence' which is not as easily found for nimrods like me, who don't read Greek. But he isn't a nimrod and explains those difficult passages. It's amazing how many times a Greek Interlinear adds the definite article parenthetically [the] under pneuma in the Greek and then capitalizes spirit in the transliterated English.

Is Bullinger's POV 100% in application and explanation of all difficult verses IMO? The answer is NO!....nothing ever is, concerning this subject IMO. When he speaks above of "Both versions have a small "s" he is referring to the KJV translations which were available when he lived (1837-1913) and the many times they waffled on capitalization and definitely influenced by prior indoctrinations as 'have nots'.

Undoubtedly, when we look at 1 Cor 12, 13 & 14 except for those times where Paul has used the Greek words (1Co 12:7 GNT) τοῦ πνεύματος for 'the Spirit' or (1Co 12:3 GNT) ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ which is the 'Holy Spirit' then our use of either upper or lower case for S/spirit will come down to a theological decision, not so much on grammar alone.

But to reiterate, since starting this discussion on the nature of man and after a bit of reflection, as I said in an earlier post, I am of the opinion that even if the various translators were to always capitalise the 's' in Spirit that this might not necessarily mean that they were thinking as Dichotomists, though this would probably be the main reason why.

A very useful free electronic study resource, or set of resources, has been produced by Logos which not only includes the Lexham Bible but also the very . . . very helpful NT Interlinears which can be downloaded as separate PDF's.

Download the Lexham English Bible​

Upon first getting his book it was truly interesting how many times Bullinger pointed out the inconsistent capitalizations of spirit there were in the KJV, when he compared them between the 1611 A.V. version to the R.V. version. That point was a definite eye opener for me 30 years ago. And it also opened me up to hearing God for 'more' since He is really the only one who truly knows for sure concerning all this, which we 'armchair intellects' talk about.

As for our many "inconsistencies", this is something that we humans are certainly consistent in; the same goes for our scholars as well, which is something that will be regularly observed when we look at the writings of probably any scholar on a given subject.

Even as you pointed out in your previous post; What indoctrination do you think Calvin would have injected in his 'margin notes'? Did he strive to elevate his 'experience' to that of the bible, or did he strive to bring the bible down to his level, as a renowned theologian, and that level of a 'non experiencial' 'have not'? I don't really accuse him of 'thinking more highly of himself than he ought'...mind you...I just think he believed he was not thinking 'more lowly' than he ought either, like so many smart theologians.

I should point out that the older lexicons can certainly be very helpful and even Thayer's Greek lexicon which became outdated maybe within a decade of it first being published back in the 1880's can also be helpful. As to the commentaries that were written prior to say the 1970's, there are probably only one or two that I would consider to be of any real value, but as for the older lexicons they certainly have their place. . . so you will need to excuse me for being a bit of a snob! The problem with most older commentaries (on maybe most subjects) is that they often fail to ask the questions that we ask today.

In Bullinger's book which is still in print after a hundred years, I just have to smile every time I hear you say anything prior to 1980 is 'lesser'. I say that because of the FOREWARD in Bullinger's latest printing which I bought circa '92'. And a FOREWARD which I also will have to type word for word.

FOREWARD
The emphasis in recent years on the doctrine of the Holy Spirit has helped to produce a great number of books on that subject. Some of these books are immature and will not last. Their theology (to borrow a phrase from P.T. Forsyth) is “like a bad photograph-over-exposed and under-deveoloped.” But a few books have made a definite contribution to the subject and will surely last. Word Studies on the Holy Spirit is one of the older works that has had a steady ministry and is sure to last.

WARREN W. WIERSBE FYI: [Warren was born 1929, a former pastor of Moody Church as well as an author of over 160 books]

I must admit that I know very little of Wiersbe's teachings, though from what I can tell he appears to be a cessationist or at least from the little that I have read of his teachings this is what he appears to be; this means that he would not be all that happy with the vast number of contemporary Continuist or Continuist-friendly commentaries.

 

[Hillsage]

I must admit that I know very little of Wiersbe's teachings, though from what I can tell he appears to be a cessationist or at least from the little that I have read of his teachings this is what he appears to be; this means that he would not be all that happy with the vast number of contemporary Continuist or Continuist-friendly commentaries.

Sounds like you know more about Wiersbe than I do. But if he is a cessationist, it really makes his FOREWORD endorsement all the more impressive IMO.

Since this is the Cessation thread, maybe I ought to ask you a question that's 'on topic'. From another thread and poster, I've heard of a church called The Revival Fellowship in southern Australia. His description of their services was pretty 'out there'. Have you ever heard of it/them? I've no idea if this is a 'movement' or just a 'local congregation only' type service.

On that download you posted, I don't even know which 'one' to punch. I can 'speak in tongues' but have a heck of a time with 'binary' language. Any recommendations;

Click to download)
Logos Bible Software (2.04 MB)
Plain Text - TXT (5.8 MB)
Extensible Markup Language - XML (8.5 MB)
Electronic Publication - EPUB (3.1 MB)
The SWORD Project version (608 KB) New Testament only
CROSS (2 MB) New Testament only

Hey, you never answered my 'most important question'.....cuppa....black or mixed?

 

[Biblicist]

Sounds like you know more about Wiersbe than I do. But if he is a cessationist, it really makes his FOREWORD endorsement all the more impressive IMO.

Since this is the Cessation thread, maybe I ought to ask you a question that's 'on topic'. From another thread and poster, I've heard of a church called The Revival Fellowship in southern Australia. His description of their services was pretty 'out there'. Have you ever heard of it/them? I've no idea if this is a 'movement' or just a 'local congregation only' type service.

The Revival Fellowship are a fringe Pentecostal group that very few Pentecostals would associate with. They broke away from the Revival Centres (Lloyd Longfield) back in 1995 where the Revival Centres through Lloyd Longfield broke away from the Christian Revival Crusade sometime in the late 1950's.

On that download you posted, I don't even know which 'one' to punch. I can 'speak in tongues' but have a heck of a time with 'binary' language. Any recommendations;

As for the free PDF Interlinears, they can be downloaded as they are and viewed either on a PC or a Smartphone. Go to the bottom of the page and then save each book of the Bible SBL Greek New Testament - Download

As for the Lexham Bible addon, for those who do not as yet use a PC based Bible program I would strongly recommend the free ESword program which not only comes with a lot of free resources but you can also buy some commercial addon packages.

With the following graphic, once I had selected the verse that I wanted the result that you see only took a single click as well. All I had to do then was to take my mouse and copy the text and past into into MSWord or similar. As you can see, this compares very well with my expensive BibleWorks program and due to its inclusion of Strong's numbers (I use the G/K system) along with a fairly clear description of the Bible names, then this could be a better option than BibleWorks on this forum - and its all free, including the Lexham (LEB) addon.

Or it could be included in a post within a spoiler such as;

Spoiler: ESword_1Cor 12_2

]

Hey, you never answered my 'most important question'.....cuppa....black or mixed?

That would be coffee, black with milk!

 

[FredVB]

What in the world made you believe tongues would be understood by the HEARER, when Scripture plainly tells us that "no man understands"? Even on the Day of Pentecost they heard supernaturally.

When your teachers tell you something that DOESN'T agree with scripture 1 Corinthians 14:2, then STOP blindly believing the teacher and find out the truth.

It is not great that various responses to posts from me, when there is some disagreement, blame teachers that I learned from. Why not just blame the Spirit of God? I have had teachers in this world, but with the Bible, I read it, and study it, for myself.

The context of that passage is not showing promotion of tongues that the Corinthians were involved with.

Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.

When the Spirit of God came on the disciples in the upper room they gave utterance in the other tongues as the Spirit had given for that.

And it also opened me up to hearing God for 'more' since He is really the only one who truly knows for sure concerning all this, which we 'armchair intellects' talk about.

It is not a light matter to me to think there is secret knowledge in the Bible, Yahweh's revelation to us, that only Yahweh God knows.

 

[1stcenturylady]

It is not great that various responses to posts from me, when there is some disagreement, blame teachers that I learned from. Why not just blame the Spirit of God? I have had teachers in this world, but with the Bible, I read it, and study it, for myself.

The context of that passage is not showing promotion of tongues that the Corinthians were involved with.

Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.

When the Spirit of God came on the disciples in the upper room they gave utterance in the other tongues as the Spirit had given for that.



It is not a light matter to me to think there is secret knowledge in the Bible, Yahweh's revelation to us, that only Yahweh God knows.

"Just blame the Spirit of God"? Are you kidding me? So you want to believe your teachers over God? Yikes!

 

[Hillsage]

It is not a light matter to me to think there is secret knowledge in the Bible, Yahweh's revelation to us, that only Yahweh God knows.

Nor is it a light matter to me that the Bible isn't the only revelation from God to us. But, the fact that the bible has been touched too many times by the carnal minded church devoid of the experience I've had to 'hear more' than those who have not, is not a light matter to me either. You simply put more weight on the 'written word' than I do. I believe the written word came from the spoken word of God. I also believe God still speaks.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

All mankind knows less than 1% of all knowledge.
When people have encountered God's presence and or power, it has changed their lives and they became great Bible scholars. St Augustine Bishop of Hippo, St Francis, Martin Luther, John Wesley, Seymour, Derek Prince...

 

[Hillsage]

All mankind knows less than 1% of all knowledge.
When people have encountered God's presence and or power, it has changed their lives and they became great Bible scholars. St Augustine Bishop of Hippo, St Francis, Martin Luther, John Wesley, Seymour, Derek Prince...

I loved the teaching of Derek Prince, and was saddened to hear of his demise along with some of the other venerable names of the early Charismatic movement. Am kind of a fan of St. Francis because as an X Catholic I was baptized with Francis as a middle name.

Augustine did some good and some big bad IMO. I think that's why upon dying he returned to life and said; "All I have written is but straw." ??????

 

[FredVB]

"Just blame the Spirit of God"? Are you kidding me? So you want to believe your teachers over God? Yikes!

Seriously, you can't do better? With all the things I have said, you can just take one phrase, certainly aimed at others, and make out as me saying that. And I surely don't. That's a way of giving up on a discussion.

Nor is it a light matter to me that the Bible isn't the only revelation from God to us. But, the fact that the bible has been touched too many times by the carnal minded church devoid of the experience I've had to 'hear more' than those who have not, is not a light matter to me either. You simply put more weight on the 'written word' than I do. I believe the written word came from the spoken word of God. I also believe God still speaks.

Really it is true Yahweh our God can do anything, it is all God's choice. What would God choose? God doesn't change, and what was said in the Bible is still true. Do you actually have something that is said from the Bible for that position, that beyond the testimony that is God's revelation through the designed natural things of creation, there is further revelation coming beyond the Bible, and still others have the revelation they claim? Do share what is said for that.

 

[Hillsage]

Really it is true Yahweh our God can do anything, it is all God's choice. What would God choose? God doesn't change, and what was said in the Bible is still true.

And what is in the bible originally came from God SPEAKING to men. And you're right "God doesn't change", He still speaks today.

Do you actually have something that is said from the Bible for that position, that beyond the testimony that is God's revelation through the designed natural things of creation, there is further revelation coming beyond the Bible, and still others have the revelation they claim? Do share what is said for that.

1CO 12:5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

Most of my experiences in these supernatural giftings above, do not have an "it is written" in the bible as to what I said.

1CO 14:29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said.

I have also experienced the above with no "it is written" in the bible as to the words which I felt 'led' to give.

ACT 2:17 'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

The only open vision I ever had, had no bible verse explanation. And the dreams I've had and shared with the elders and or pastor or whoever they were meant for, never had a verse anywhere close to the words I faithfully delivered in, what I believe was, obedience to God.

 

[FredVB]

There are certainly gifts from Yahweh. The Bible is fully written and copies of translations of it are very much available to believers in most places. There should be testimony for what is prophetically given through one still, as Yahweh says there should be testimony to what is revealed. It is a concern, as I see it, that there is an issue with anything yet said additional to what revelation there is, the Bible, with such given equal value, as it says in Revelation if anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book.

 

[Paul.]

He doesn't gift persons to do signs at will as did the Apostles.

What makes you think that the apostles did signs at will and not as the Holy Spirit willed or have I misunderstood your position?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

What makes you think that the apostles did signs at will and not as the Holy Spirit willed or have I misunderstood your position?

1 Corinthians 12 King James Version (KJV)
12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

1 Corinthians 12 King James Version (KJV)
12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Jesus, setting the pattern for future Christian ministry told the 70 who went out to spread the good news, "Heal the sick, cast out demons, preache the good news." So, whether the Apostles (or anyone else for that matter) felt an anointing or not, they went out and did it out of obedience to the Lord's command. The Holy Spirit, because He respects the commands of the Lord, worked with the Apostles, confirming the Word with signs following. The difference today is that although the Holy Spirit has never stopped respecting the commands of the Lord, many Christians don't.