Cessationism: Have the gifts ceased?

[Thunderchild]

#76

Sorry for my two cents again, but I thought we were all "filled with the Holy Spirit" when we received the free gift of salvation. But I guess there are modern day "judges" who receive extraordinary amounts of this "in-filling". *sarcasm intended*

The judgement you have passed is noted, o judge.

 

[Thunderchild]

Here you go here is my proof text that he was only talking to the 12. And he sat down, and called the twelve, and saith unto
them, If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of
all, and servant of all.

What do the words "if any man mean"? Be assured that they do not mean "if any man among you." What is an apostle? The servant of all, perhaps? last of all as well, maybe? Certainly comments in the epistles say close to the same.

It is a wicked and perverse generation that asks for a sign.

No such statement is made in the Bible. The Bible cites Jesus as saying "A wicked and perverse generation asks for a sign, but no sign shall be given to it, save that of Jonah.[/quote] Of course, the not wicked and perverse generation of the time was receiving signs aplenty - from turning water into wine to healing. From cursing a fig tree to raising from the dead. From casting out demons to walking on water - the signs were given. Might be that you have pointed out why signs today are so few. (though "might" is a word that could better be omitted from the statement.)

 

[SnuP]

My Pastor told us that about a week ago.  His son had an accident while skiing.  He smashed into a peir at about 25 miles an hour.  He struck the peir on his back, and had bad swelling on his shoulder blade.  he was having alot of difficulty breathing and was coughing up blood.  Clear evidence of a creck rib and possibly a pierced lug.  His father, without even considering the hospital, imediately laid hand on the boy.  Within five minutes the kid was breathing easily and laying on the couch.  The next day he continued to hack up blood, but the blood was coagulating, there was no fresh blood.  By the third day everything was back to normal.

I have had a broken rib before and the testimony is consistant.

 

[sola fide]

Originally posted by Thunderchild
#76




The judgement you have passed is noted, o judge.

I can truly here to say that I have not passed judgment on anyone. I formerly went to a charismatic church that boldly proclaims the charismatic gifts, I still visit their revivals...my best friend is "word of faith" also, The things I say on this board are the same things I say to my word of faith friend in our Bible studies. I adhere strictly to the Holy Scriptures and I test all spirits by them. I do not rely on my personal experience to tell me the nature of God or His works...
I rely on His true revelation in Scripture. God bless.

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[cougan]

#83


My Pastor told us that about a week ago. His son had an accident while skiing. He smashed into a peir at about 25 miles an hour. He struck the peir on his back, and had bad swelling on his shoulder blade. he was having alot of difficulty breathing and was coughing up blood. Clear evidence of a creck rib and possibly a pierced lug. His father, without even considering the hospital, imediately laid hand on the boy. Within five minutes the kid was breathing easily and laying on the couch. The next day he continued to hack up blood, but the blood was coagulating, there was no fresh blood. By the third day everything was back to normal.

I have had a broken rib before and the testimony is consistant.

What is your point this was not a bible miracle. This guy took days to heal as it would if he had not had hands laid on him. Show me 1 miracle in the bible of someone taking days to heal. You will not find it because the healings of the bible are imeadiate. About the longest you could ever hint at would still be less than 1 hour.

 

[Andrew]

quote: "But he doesn't use His servants in the same manner He once did."

Yes he still does. In fact, he said "greater works than these will you do becos I go to my Father" & "...and these signs shall accompany them that believe, they shall lay hands on the sick... speak in new tongues... etc"

quote: "The first time I hear someone speak in Biblical glossolalia my opinion on the matter might change,"

So who's the one looking for a sign?

quote: "..but it is obvious that God has no need of these types of miracles."

Its also obvious God did not give gifts to himself but to the church. The church needs it, the world needs it. simple case in point. A man is possessed and out of his mind. You cast the devil out and set him free and share with him the love of God. You can do the latter without first doing the former.

 

[sola fide]

The plain truth is...modern day medical science is a miracle in and of itself. What Andrew said is true. Most, and I dare say all, healings are because of things that God has provided for us to help us live longer, healthier lives...not by miracles of "Biblical proportions".

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[Thunderchild]

I see - we now have the Bible complete, so (in contradiction of the Bible's own declaration) it is no longer necessary for our faith to be built on the directly witnessed power of the Holy Spirit, instead of being built upon words of wisdom.

Oh yes - if it takes a while, then it can't be from God - totally ignoring the fact that a blind man needed two applications (for want of a better word) of an act of healing from Jesus before he could see fully. The Bible does show at least one event which took a little while to be completed rather than being instantaneous - a short duration is therefore not shown to be in contradiction of the Biblical record. Assuming that the story is true, it may be that the man should have laid hands on his son a second time - but failed to do so.

 

[SnuP]

cougan, maybe you don't understand how the body works.

the kid was healed the first day, as testified by the fact that he could suddenly breath right and that he had mobility back.  What took days, was a bodies natural removal of cloting blood that was left in the lungs after the lung was healed.  He hacked up old blood.  Secondly, you can not be healed within three days of a cracked rib or punctured lung.  When I fractured a rib it took months before I could breath normaly and feel no pain.  For him it happened within five minutes.  The blood that he continued to cough up was proof that a complete healing had taken place.

 

[sola fide]

Originally posted by Thunderchild
I see - we now have the Bible complete, so (in contradiction of the Bible's own declaration) it is no longer necessary for our faith to be built on the directly witnessed power of the Holy Spirit, instead of being built upon words of wisdom.

The Bible is more than "words of wisdom" to me...It is a life manual. Our experiences are tainted by our depraved nature. Scripture however is infallible and perfect...not tainted.
Hey...true story...I broke my ring finger on my throwing hand the day before a big game...The swelling went down enough that I was able to take every snap in the game and actually complete a few passes, is that a miracle? No, it's the natural function of the body. I've seen several people get well after suffering from different infermities...does God heal them?...yes he does...is it a miracle? No. It's a fact of life, some people get well and others don't.
Healings of today are nothing like Biblical healings, they are not "miraculous". If they were miraculous, they wouldn't be happening all the time, that's redundant. Miracles don't happen often or they wouldn't be miracles.

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[Andrew]

quote: "The plain truth is...modern day medical science is a miracle in and of itself. What Andrew said is true. Most, and I dare say all, healings are because of things that God has provided for us to help us live longer, healthier lives...not by miracles of "Biblical proportions"

We certainly thank God for doctors and medicine. But any doctor will tell you that they can't heal the body. they can only prescribe medicine to kill or slow down the virus, then the body has to heal itself becos of the damage done. that healing process eg by the immune system, is a gift of God itself.

Also, doctors cant heal many diseases. And when I said God gave gifts to the church, I meant Biblically the offices of apostles, prophets, pastors, gifts of the Holy Spirit eg tongues healings etc/. i wasnt talking about doctors or medicine, that's not mentioned in those verses.

great testimony Snup. do share more if you have more! yes, sometimes when the root cause eg cancer cells is killed or removed by the power of God in an instant, the body then begins to recover (aint it amazing how God made our bodies!). the person regains muscle mass, his hair, his weight, appetite etc and these make take a little time but I guess God wants him to enjoy seeing all these things happening!

 

[SnuP]

My relationship with my wife was a miracule.  A year before I was married my wife was dating another man in a different state.  One day, while rebuking a demonic influence over one of my friends, I saw a vision in which I saw the throne of God.  I was given the chance to talk to God.  I ask if I could marry this girl, every time I had asked before I recieved no answer.  This time I hear Him say yes.  The next year I did everything within my power to go against the prophacy without violating my Christian charrecter.  I incouraged thier relationship, giving advice to her and him about how to make their relationship work.  But no matter how much I tried to assist them, thier relationship just kept getting worse.  Finally my wife came to an place of brokenness and told God that she was willing to do what ever He wanted.

She came down to Florida to visit her friends and me.  She had been unable to break up with him because he was manipulitive and her heart was tender.  While she was down we talked and I told her that I would marry her tonight, but she said that she had to remain faithful to the relationship that she was in untill she could end it.  The day she went back he broke up with her.  We were ingaged six days later.

When I first met her, I prayed to ask God for permision to date her.  He not only gave me permition but gave me some prophesies.  Me and her would sing together, my best friend {another female (who had a boyfriend who was also my best friend)}would become her best friend, and that her parents would trust me unconditionally (they still do to this day, infact they used to trust me more then my wife and she was the most responcible girl you could have met).

So if all these prophesies came true then prophesies must still exist today.

 

[sola fide]

Ok, I'm not trying to demean...I promise...but did God speak to you in an audible voice?

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[SnuP]

it was audible but it also wasn't.  It was as if my spirit had ears.  It was easier to hear in the vision then when I was just praying though.  But I heard both the same way.

 

[cougan]

#77


cougan,

you are still assuming too much and picking and choosing. now you are saying that it is somehow infered in that passage that the disciples knew v18 was for their private consumption while the rest were teaching subjects meant for the church (eg where two or three are gathered in my name...). I see your point, but then, to be consistent in the way you handle the passgae, you'd have to say the rest of it is also meant for the apostles only, since you insist Jesus was talking only to the 12.

Ok let me see if I can clear this up. First of all I have shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is only talking to the 12 here. Now look at these 2 verses.
18 "Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be
loosed in heaven. 19 "Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth
concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

Note carefully how Jesus commended these things to the apostles with use of the word you. Both of the verses apply to the apostles. Then look at the other verses before and after and you will see that Jesus is speaking in more broader sense. It seems clear to me. I dont know if you read my post or not but I did say that we can bind and loose today based off of the completed word of God that we have. But we can not bind and loose like the apostles did as reavealing new revealation words to live by that had not yet been revealed and that were confirmed with miracles.


Ok you want to rehash the pastor apostles thing again. The purpose of the apostles and prophets were to reaveal this new doctrine we call the NT and to grow the body of Christ. The miracelous HS filled pastors and teachers had to have this gift so that they would know what to teach since they did not have the written word. We are not talking about 2 different pastors and teachers were talking about those being miracelous guided by the HS not to take thought of what the say becasue the HS will give them the word to say compared to the pastors and teachers that we have today that are not miracelouly being told what to say by the Holy Spirit. The reason why the prophet and apostles drop from the is list is because once the word was fully reavealed their office or postions is no longer needed.

"If you are correct about 1Cort 13 and Eph 4 then we can never become spiritual mature until christ comes."

yes exactly my point!

quote "I belive that the bible teaches that you can become spiritual mature before christ comes."

No it does not in that passage. Remember it says maturity to the point of having the fullness of the stature of Christ. That's the criteria. Its one thing to say so and so is a mature Christian but a totally diff thing to say that he has reached the full stature of Christ and has perfect knowledge. Do you know of any Christian who is like that?

In 1cor 13 how can you overcome the fact that the word perfect is never used to describe the 2nd coming of Christ. How do arive at your conclussion that the word perfect means Jesus when he in no where do be found in the context. Then how do you account for James 1:25. The thing spoken here in 1 cor 13 is pointing to that in James 1:25. The perfect law of liberty. The word perfect in both or these passages are the same word and James was written after 1Cor. Again this shows that that complete revealed word is what the perfect refers to. Read this Chapter again it seems so clear and becomes clearer and clearer the more I study it. We can be spirtually mature today by continual growing in the grace and and adding to our faith. We can be mature enough to hold postions like Elders or deacons. We can defend the faith because we are well equiped 2Tim 3:16-17. One of the main ideas here is the church becomeing spiritually mature. They were imature during the 1st century because they were still receiveing revealation in part and they had much to learn. But now we have the completed word of God to guide us to spiritual maturity. You are missunderstanding what the measure of the fullness of Christ means. It is not saying that we will be perfect as christ is because no man can do that. Again these passages are are refering to spiritual maturity which we can have and yes there is always room to grow. You do not reach somepoint where you say ok I cant grow anymore or I cant mature anymore. But you can still be spiritually mature to discern the truth from fiction. So you wont be tossed to and fro by everywind of doctrine. Andrew are you telling me that you are not spirtual mature enough to be kept from every wind and doctrine?

 

[SnuP]

Originally posted by Andrew
Hey Cougan,

Have you checked out Robert Emmanuel's testimony?

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=278219#post278219

here's the thread

 

[cougan]

TC your funny. The guy that had the accident never went to the hospital. It was only assumed that his rib was broke or his lung was messed up. You know what they says about assumptions. Now I am very familiar with the miracle you refered to. First he saw dimmily then clearly. How much time expired? Even though in this 1 instance where Jesus did his thing twice it was still done right then and there. I will say it again you will not find a passage that shows a miracle healing took longer than 1 hour. You will not find where someone is prayed for then after days or even weeks then they are healed and its called a miracle.

Snup that an interesting story. Heres you a challenge since you have this close personal relationship with God that you get to actually talk with him. Why dont you ask God Almighty to reveal something to you about me or prophecy about something that will soon happen to me. Then when you do if it happens then I will get on here a proclaim it. Or how about ask God to visit me in a vision so that I can know the truth. I seek after God everday with all my heart and I pray ask to show me if I am in error because I do not want to proclaim false words. Yet after 2 years of looking into miralces and healings God has not revealed to me that any of these supposed miracles or sighn were real nor did the facts about them support it. Perhaps you would explain to me why I have not been corrected. I would accept a visual miracle but like I say over and over again none will never be provided. If one ever is then I will start proclaiming miracles tommorrow. Iron 9 and someothers on here prayed that my wife be healed from her tmj and neck problem. But of course she still has the problems.

 

[SnuP]

cougan, I will do as you ask.  but I must tell you that I am not a prophet and only occasionally do I recieve prophesies.  As to the other request that I am sure that God will do it.  and when He does, the timing will be so perfect that the fruit of it will affect other areas in your life.  That...kinda... sounds like a prophesy.

As for the pastors son, his simptoms were typical of a broken rib.  The fact that there was blood shows that a rib must have been broken.  Or maybe some other internal injury, but remember that he had complete mobility within five minutes.  This is not possible with any injury.

once, I had an ear infection.  A prophet that is friends with my pastor and father came and visited.  Telling Him only that my ear hurt, I asked Him to pray for me.  He prayed quietly in tongues for a minute and then told me that God said that I had an ear infection and that I need to buy a ear wax removal kit.  But he said that God had healed the infection.  Imidiately the pain was gone, but my ear still ramained clogged.  I did as I was told.  and I had no more problems.  What did I learn,  I should take better care of my ears and I shouldn't have used a tissue to try to remove the wax in the first place.

 

 

[sola fide]

Did I just read what I thought I read?...Somebody tell me I read that whole story wrong...please tell me.
Anyway, how can you prophesy and not be a prophet? That's like saying I write occasionally but I'm not a writer.

Soli Deo gloria!

 

[SnuP]

As you have said there are many frauds out there.  I don't claim to be anything, I just want people to experience God and have a real relationship with Him.  The frauds just want their name out there.  They don't love God.  They love themselves.  They give people empty promises and direct those people to the things of this world.  They don't have a relationship with God, nor do they help others find one.  They make their follower legalistic, bound by condemnation, and leave those seeking after dead works to gain God's aproval.  There is much darkness in the world.  But those who will give God the glory, they will be lights to the truth.