Cessationism: Have the gifts ceased?

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cougan

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I am reminded of these verses. Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

Is'nt this true. A lot of people have such a strong zeal for God but they do things in the name of God that are not of God. We all agree that Jesus is the son of God and that the only way to the Father is through the son. We also agree that Jesus died for our sins and that are sins are cleansed by the blood of Jesus. We also agree that you should put God first in you life and be doer of the word. Now Andrew has already told me that I am saved that I am just missing out because I dont beleive in tongues and miracles today. Snup and TC what do you think to you think that I am lost simply because I dont belive these things are here?

Now TC this wont help your view out since I am viewed as the one that is in the dark and that I have no clue what the bible says because I am not miracelous guided into what the word of Gods says. But I completely 100% agree with TC on the water Baptism issue. This one of the clearest messages found in the bible. I have tried and tried to see how someone can get around baptism being part of the salvation plan, however I have not seen one yet. I hope that you guys have considered me speaking to you with love also. I hope that you wouldnt wipe me from your feet. :)

Andrew the reason why this helps show that Miracles and signs are not here is because this would also mean that the HS is still miracelous guiding people what to say and guiding them into all truth. The HS was the power behind the miralces and signs in the 1st century. When you 3 guys came up with differing answers after I asked you to get your answer from the HS you came up with different answers. This does not make any sense because the HS is not going to contridict himself. Therefore that leads us to 2 conclusions. Either the HS is not guiding people in direct way (my view) or one of you is not being lead by the HS but by some other spirit or perhaps you being lead by your own brain power and you just believe you are being led by the HS.

TC in a past post you qutoed a post that said that the apostles were infaliable and it looked like you were quoting from something I posted. I am not sure where you got that from because I did'nt write it. I have posted some articles but I dont think they would write such a thing either. If I posted such a thing in a article it was unknown to me. I forget sometimes to say that I am posting an article and I apologize for that. But anyways I DO NOT belive that the apostles are infalliable. One just has to look at Peter. But when the HS was speaking through them they did not speak things wrong or contridict themselves. The apostles were just as much human as we are and capable of sinning.
 
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SnuP

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Actually cougan, it appears that TC and I are in close agreement if not in complete agreement.  The veiw that Andrew showed is a view that I also once held, and maybe something closely guarded depending on how he's had to defend it before.  Some opinions on the scriptures can be so stong that God will wait for your will on the subject to weaken (there is less of the flesh involved) before He will show you the truth.  Your experiment, though sound in concept, is faulty because it doesn't take into acount all variables. 
 
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Thunderchild

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"Good thought" was a reference to your offer of sharing study notes Snup.

As important as the study of baptism is, we will not reach a resolution by doing so - the Biblical declarations regarding baptism are, as Cougan has pointed out, crystal clear. During the course of the day, it has been shown to me that the problem does not arise with understanding what the Bible has to say about baptism, but grace.

For it is by the grace of God through faith that we are saved, not of works that any should boast: the corollary is therefore that no works are needed for salvation - it is purely a matter of accepting God's free gift of salvation.

Does Peter support this corollary when he says that we are saved by baptism? no.
Does James support this corollary when he says that faith without works, being alone, is dead - it cannot save you? no.
Does Jesus support this corollary when he says that those who are disobedient will be cast into the outer darkness? no.
Does even Paul support this corollary when he says that those who continue deliberately to sin will inherit nothing of heaven? no.

The corollary is a misapplication of the passages about grace - this concept of grace is flawed, having no foundation in scripture.
 
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Thunderchild

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Likewise Snup - There was a time when I believed that baptism was an optional extra, but I do have a bit of an advantage over most, in that I was exposed to some extremely incorrect doctrines in the first couple months after I accepted Christ as my Lord. Fortunately, the Bible study teacher at the church I was attending acknowledged the fact that the teachings were false - "but the others in the class aren't ready for the truth." Since then I have been very careful to avoid reading Bible commentaries and the like, and have paid no attention to church teachings on various doctrines: Except to compare the handouts from a variety of churches with each other and the Bible concurrently - sorting out which of those doctrines actually has the support of the Bible. I didn't keep a record of exact details but some very odd results did turn up during the course of that research.

1/ No matter how thoroughly "cultic" a given church is, it always has some doctrines that are sound.
2/ No matter how many churches agree that a given doctrine is right, there is always a church somewhere which stands in contradiction to the majority.
3/ Most often, a church which stands alone on a given doctrine will be in error.
4/ Occasionally only one church will have a correct doctrine, in contradiction of the majority of churches. (usually about a minor issue, usually in a church which only gets a couple of its doctrines correct.)
5/ Sometimes a doctrine will arise from an exhaustive review of Biblical passages, with a correct interpretation of each passage - yet the resulting doctrine will be completely erroneous.
6/ Sometimes a correct doctrine will arise from any-one's guess where, because every proof texts offered has nothing to do with the doctrine.
 
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Thunderchild

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Andrew the reason why this helps show that Miracles and signs are not here is because this would also mean that the HS is still miracelous guiding people what to say and guiding them into all truth. The HS was the power behind the miralces and signs in the 1st century.
...
Either the HS is not guiding people in direct way (my view) or one of you is not being lead by the HS but by some other spirit or perhaps you being lead by your own brain power and you just believe you are being led by the HS.
Or being led by someone who is not being led by the Holy Spirit, the blind being led by the blind.
Fact is, even for apostles and prophets, SUBMITTING to the guidance of the Holy Spirit doesn't come easy, and never has. Again, Peter as witness ... and Paul, come to that - who wrote to the Corinthians telling them to have no association with idolators etc and so forth: Then he had to declare the error and correct it in a second letter (1 Corinthians of the Bible). Simply because the first letter failed to point out that the members of the church were not to associate with a so called brother who was an idolator (among other things) - saying also that it had not been his intention that these instructions should be applied to anyone outside the church.

I am laying odds that Andrew has no difficulty with understanding what the Bible has to say about baptism per se, but is having immense difficulty resolving those declarations with the concept of grace. That concept is nice bright shiny ball: hitting it hard enough with the hammer of the Bible's declarations about such things as baptism and obedience will bend the nice shiny ball into the correct shape.
 
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Thunderchild

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Ah - so you did, Cougan: I missed the bit where you asked me to pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

However - you now have a problem. Without the Holy Spirit, one cannot understand the things of God, they seem foolishness.
So then, how can it be that the Holy Spirit is NOT among us, assuming that God desires that we understand the things that are of him.

And BTW - the withdrawal of the Holy Spirit would herald the advent of the beast - which event cannot occur while there are believers faithful to God among those living on Earth (rapture or no rapture).
 
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SnuP

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OK TC, its obvious to me that I took to many things for granted.

1. you don't know that I am aggainst the ideas of salvation with works involved in any way.

2. you don't know that I believe that every thing that is done in a christians life must have the power of God active in it or it is a dead work and probably sin.

Therefore when I say that the salvation of the soul must be worked out in fear and trembling, I'm refering to the fear of God.  That unless the spirit leads all aspect of repentence of sin then the work is in vain.  Within this personal relationship I keep refering to God desires to disciple His children.  To lead them into all truth.  To show the areas of darkness that the christian may walk in victory.  Better put is that the salvation of the soul is only gained by submission to the Father, in love and a desire to see His will fulfilled and to remain in the fellowship gained by the salvation of the spirit.  As I said earlier, that baptism of water gives one an annointing to resist the enemy.  This statement should have served as a clue that I was saying there was a need for canstant guidence from the Holy Spirit, since all annointing operate out of the power and presence of God.  There is no annointing with out the presence of God.  And everything done from our own power has an anti-annointing, since God resist the proud.
 
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cougan

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Ah - so you did, Cougan: I missed the bit where you asked me to pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

However - you now have a problem. Without the Holy Spirit, one cannot understand the things of God, they seem foolishness.
So then, how can it be that the Holy Spirit is NOT among us, assuming that God desires that we understand the things that are of him.

And BTW - the withdrawal of the Holy Spirit would herald the advent of the beast - which event cannot occur while there are believers faithful to God among those living on Earth (rapture or no rapture).

I belive that the HS leads, convicts ,corrects by the word of God. I do not belive that he comes on us directly and tells us what to say or directly opens up our mind to the meaning of a passage in a miracleous sense. I came to the same conclusion on baptism as you without a direct indweling of the HS. However I was guided by the HS indirectly through the word but studying and reasoning from the scriptures. How do you explain what I understand and know about the word of God without having a direct miraceleus indwelling of the HS?

I am really interested in your concept of if the HS is removed than the advent of the beast will occur. Since its not really realated to the topic of this discussion you might just PM it to me or point me to another thread where you have already spoke of this.

Thanks
 
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Thunderchild

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Snup - Points at which we are not in accord:
1. you don't know that I am aggainst the ideas of salvation with works involved in any way.
Question arises - how do you resolve the comments of James with that belief? I cannot reconcile the commonly made declarations regarding grace and faith with the Bible's own account. I can see how grace and faith are reconciled with the need for works, if the interpretations of the actions of faith and grace as usually stated are incorrect.

Search through Paul's comments on the insufficiency of works, and you will find that he specifies in almost all (if not, all) of those passages "Works of the Law" - and context shows him to be referring to the law of Moses and the Prophets. Works of faith are not declared to be of no value, nor works of love. Just one specific variety of works. Further, he specifies that works undertaken without love and or faith are worthless. That is - submission to the letter of the law is meaningless if the person does not have the right attitude. (more or less - if a person doesn't commit murder for sole cause that he doesn't want to risk the penalty for committing murder, the wrongful attitude behind that decision makes the decision worthless in terms of salvation.)
 
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Thunderchild

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Let us look at the basic declarations.

We are saved by faith through grace: the free and unconditional gift of God.

That statement is incorrect.

We are saved by faith through grace: the free and unconditional gift of God to those who are obedient.

That statement is correct.

Cite in evidence- this salvation is not extended to a person who does not repent of his life: it is extended to those whose Lord is Christ Jesus.
 
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Andrew

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TC, SnuP

Do we want to discuss water baptism and salvation here? Or shld we start another thread?

TC i went to the website you gave and went thru the verses u used. My first question/impression is what about all the other clear-cut verses that speak about salvation without mentioning anything abt water bap? There are more of these simple straight-to-the-point verses that show clearly that water bap is not necess for salvation. (perhaps you have explained them on another webpage?)

My understanding is that in Bible study, we dont build doctrines on 2-3 verses that seem to 'contradict' the 10-15 (lets say) other verses that are in agreement and simple to understand. IOW we have to interpret those 2-3 'difficult' verses in light of the majority.

Water is used as a type. It is not the substance that saves. What saves is God's blood washing away sin and his Spirit power recreating the human spirit, made poss thru Christ death and resurrection. that is the substance/real thing that takes place in a person born again by the power of God. And tht happens in an instant. water bap then, is just symbol of what has taken place inside the man. water immersion -- buried just as Christ died. Getting out of the water -- resurrection of Christ from the grave. So the act of water baptism symbolises all this. it cant save. Only the power of God can.
 
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cougan

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Ok Andrew I see I am just an outcast. I take you just don't want to hear what I have to say on the matter, after all you did'nt include my name in your last post. I will have to go look at TC website and check it out. Andrew the water is not magical your abosolutly right the water itself does not wash away your sins. It is however at the point of baptism that the blood of Jesus is applied through your obedince of faith and your faith in the working of God. I would like to share with you part of this personal letter I wrote to a close friend of mine in regards to his view on this subject.

David, I began to think over our conversation we had the other day and realized that you contradicted yourself. I will try and keep this short. You stated over and over again either salvation was free or its not. Along this same idea you stated “must a man do something in order to be saved.” You have condemned your own view by these statements. You said that a man has to have faith in God and believe that Jesus is the son of God. Just as you pointed out, faith alone does not save you as found in James 2. You then said that you have to repent, that is to make the decision that you are going to stop doing those sinful things that are contrary to Gods will. Finally you said you must confess Jesus as Lord. Then of course you stated that you were not ready to make baptism necessary for salvation. Now let me show you how you contradicted yourself. Do you realize what you are saying when you say a man should not have to do anything if grace is a free gift? You present this idea, but yet you say man has to do something in order to be saved. Perhaps you have never thought about this before. You say that someone has to have faith and believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Did you know that faith is a work? See John 6:28-29. How about repenting is that not an act of obedience and also a work? What about confessing Jesus as Lord, is that not an act of obedience and a work? Do you see how you have contradicted yourself? So surely you can see if these things are necessary for one to be saved, that the free gift of salvation does require something on the mans part. Notice James 1:21 The word saves you Eph 2:4-5 Grace saves you Rom 8:24 Hope saves you John 3:16 faith saves you. Rom 10:9-10 Faith and confessing saves you. You agree with all of the above as far as I remember.

Do you remember the story of Noah and the ark? Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Noah had obedience to the faith. God told him what to do and he did it even though he had never seen rain. So he and his family were saved because of this obedience of faith. Now notice 1Peter 3: 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Do you see the clearness of this David? In the same way that Noah through the obedience of faith was saved from the wicked people of the earth by water we to are saved by the obedience of faith in baptism. We are not just getting wet and getting physically clean, no it is by our faith in the working of God that we know that we are being united with Christ in baptism in the likeness of his death having our sins washed away.
Col 2: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Baptism is also an act of obedience. What makes baptism different than any of these other acts of obedience that you say one must do to be saved? As you struggle with this please study the following verses. Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16, Gal 3:27, Rom 6: 3-8, John 3:5. 1Cor 12:13, 1Peter 3:21 There are more but that is plenty.
 
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SnuP

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TC,

it is becoming obvious that you don't read all of my post before you respond.  This is the second time that you have missed the point.  You have to read my comments in contexts.

1. you don't know that I am aggainst the ideas of salvation with works involved in any way.
maybe I should have said 'works of the flesh' or 'works born out of mans self righteousness'

But, these other quotes calrified my statement.

That unless the spirit leads all aspect of repentence of sin then the work is in vain.

Better put is that the salvation of the soul is only gained by submission to the Father, in love and a desire to see His will fulfilled and to remain in the fellowship gained by the salvation of the spirit.

everything done from our own power has an anti-annointing, since God resist the proud.

Maybe you should just go back and read the original.  It flows much better.
 
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SnuP

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Here's a challange.

TC and cougan, you and I have both said that baptism is a necessary part of salvation.  But I went further on to say that it only applies with the salvation of the soul, and therefore will not stop a person from going to Heaven.  We also have both said that in water baptism we die to sin and are raised to a new life in Christ.  But I went on to say that it was the first part of the process of reconciliation.  Please, both of you try and prove me wrong.  I have already looked over all the scriptures listed by cougan in his responce to Andrew.  I really like Romans 6:3-whatever.  I must admit that John 3:5 stumped me for a minute but then I remembered that the kingdom of God is already here and does not refer to Heaven but the fellowship of God and His people.

Here's a question for TC:  How do you explain the Christians who are filled with the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speakin in tongues and the obvious fruit of the Spirit, that have never been baptized in water?

Well TC, now that I take a second look at your post, with the light of some of your more recent ones, I see that we only partially agree.
 
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tericl2

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Cougan,

David, I began to think over our conversation we had the other day and realized that you contradicted yourself. I will try and keep this short. You stated over and over again either salvation was free or its not. Along this same idea you stated “must a man do something in order to be saved.” You have condemned your own view by these statements. You said that a man has to have faith in God and believe that Jesus is the son of God. Just as you pointed out, faith alone does not save you as found in James 2. You then said that you have to repent, that is to make the decision that you are going to stop doing those sinful things that are contrary to Gods will. Finally you said you must confess Jesus as Lord. Then of course you stated that you were not ready to make baptism necessary for salvation. Now let me show you how you contradicted yourself. Do you realize what you are saying when you say a man should not have to do anything if grace is a free gift? You present this idea, but yet you say man has to do something in order to be saved. Perhaps you have never thought about this before. You say that someone has to have faith and believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Did you know that faith is a work? See John 6:28-29. How about repenting is that not an act of obedience and also a work? What about confessing Jesus as Lord, is that not an act of obedience and a work? Do you see how you have contradicted yourself? So surely you can see if these things are necessary for one to be saved, that the free gift of salvation does require something on the mans part. Notice James 1:21 The word saves you Eph 2:4-5 Grace saves you Rom 8:24 Hope saves you John 3:16 faith saves you. Rom 10:9-10 Faith and confessing saves you. You agree with all of the above as far as I remember.

You must take James in context with the whole Bible. What is faith without works? It is dead. In other words it is no faith at all. That is why Christians will be "known by their works". (Matt 5:16, John 3:21, John 6:28, John 14:12, Rom 3:20-22,27,28, Rom 11:6, etc.)

(YLT) James 2:14 What [is] the profit, my brethren, if faith, any one may speak of having, and works he may not have? is that faith able to save him?
15 and if a brother or sister may be naked, and may be destitute of the daily food,
16 and any one of you may say to them, `Depart ye in peace, be warmed, and be filled,' and may not give to them the things needful for the body, what [is] the profit?
17 so also the faith, if it may not have works, is dead by itself.
18 But say may some one, Thou hast faith, and I have works, shew me thy faith out of thy works, and I will shew thee out of my works my faith:


What is the profit of faith with no works? There is none. In Isaiah it says that if God's word comes down to eath it will not return to him void. Likewise, if His Word (Jesus) is in us it will not be void. It will serve its purpose so that we will be changed and will do works. If there are no works then there is no saving faith.

(YLT) John 6:28 They said therefore unto him, `What may we do that we may work the works of God?'
29 Jesus answered and said to them, `This is the work of God, that ye may believe in him whom He did send.'


How do we work the works of God? By believing in Jesus. True belief will bring about works. (2 Cor 5:17 niv - "Whoever is in Christ is a NEW creation, the old has gone and the NEW has come) If there is no new, which will be evidenced by works, then there is no new creation and hence no saving faith/belief.
(YLT) John 14:12
`Verily, verily, I say to you, he who is believing in me, the works that I do -- that one also shall do, and greater than these he shall do, because I go on to my Father;


What works did Jesus do? He healed, preached, and fed the hungry. Do we do these works? Do we do works greater than these? According to Christ we should. Could these be the works James is referring to? Just a thought.

(YLT) Rom 3:20 wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin. 21 And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, 22 and the righteousness of God [is] through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference,.....
27 Where then [is] the boasting? it was excluded; by what law? of works? no, but by a law of faith: 28 therefore do we reckon a man to be declared righteous by faith, apart from works of law.


Again, we are not saved by works, but they are a natural out pouring of our true faith.

YLT Ro 11:6
and if by grace, no more of works, otherwise the grace becometh no more grace; and if of works, it is no more grace, otherwise the work is no more work.


If by works then grace is not grace!!

YLT Ga 3:2 this only do I wish to learn from you -- by works of law the Spirit did ye receive, or by the hearing of faith?

Which is it? By works or faith that you received the Spirit?

YLT Eph 2:8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift, 9 not of works, that no one may boast; 10 for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works

Another clear example.

YLT Titus 1:16 God they profess to know, and in the works they deny [Him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work disapproved.

Titus 1:16 is a clear example of the deceptive faith. They say they know God but by their works they deny Him!!

YLT Jas 2:26 for as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also the faith apart from the works is dead.

Now back to where we started. Just as a body without a spirit is dead so is faith without works! Do you see the parallel? If you don't have works wrought by God in your life then your faith is useless, just as a dead body is useless. It will accomplish nothing!!

Now I ask again, what works are we performing? Are the the works of Jesus? Are they "greater works than this" because he "went to be with the father"? Please tell me the complete ministry of Jesus. Hints - He healed. He preached (gospel of salvation through Him alone). He fed the hungry. There is probably more but those pretty well sum up the bulk of things.


Are we doing these and greater works? Is our faith dead or alive?
 
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