Thunderchild
Sheep in Wolf's clothing
Ummmm.... Mark was an apostle was he not? Was he numbered among those who were sent out, and who did such things as casting out demons?
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Their argument falls apart when the Biblical declaration of the reason for miracles. That there are other arguments also showing the same is not surprising.so the cessationists' argument that the purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Apostles and their writings fall apart when we consider the books of Mark and Luke.
4. Scripture is the product of inspiration by the Holy Spirit, and is all-sufficient for "doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Tim. 3:16-17). A need for the miraculous gifts, as listed in 1 Cor. 12 and Eph. 4, does not exist today
perfecting of the saints is a little clearer than "till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ..." but the meaning is not different. The perfecting of the SAINTS - not of the faith.2. Three purposes of the gifts are listed in Eph. 4:12 -- "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." (and the claim is that this no longer needs to be done?)
There is absolutely NO justification for this claim within scripture. It has been pulled out of thin air.Paul's illustration is to point out that just as he left behind childish ways when he grew from infancy to manhood, so also the infant church would discard spiritual gifts when revelation is complete. When Jesus "gave gifts unto men"
1Cr 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. In the law it is written, With [men of] other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in [those that are] unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
If the church has come into the unity of the faith then why do we still need evangelist, pastors, and teachers?
Not in the least - the one who is missing the point is the one saying that apostles, prophets, teachers and preachers are no longer appointed to show the way to new believers until those new believers (achieve maturity) are able to follow Christ without guidance.You guys are missing the whole concept of those verses. Its all about acheiving spiritual maturity.
bulldust - the issue was addressed in posts #29 and 30.Nobody commented on the self suffience of the scriptures.
The verse only addresses the things that John writes - it makes no reference to anything written by any other author. If you're expecting anyone to believe that all we need is the first epistle of John (or maybe all three of his epistles at a stretch), you're in for a mighty big disappointment.My little children, I write these things to you so that you do not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ (the) righteous.
I was sure that I had, but I'm not going back through the thread again to locate the place. The word of God isconfirmed by signs, not "was", "is." Do you really think, with all the nonsense being promulgated today as doctrine, that there is no need for God to be showing where the ones who are faithful to him might be? The signs are given that our faith have its foundation in the demonstrated power of the Holy Spirit, instead of being foundered (sic) on mere words of wordly wisdom.And finally nobody touched on my point the fact that word of God was confirmed by signs. Once the word was fully reavealed then there was no more need for signs. If there are still signs today then we must still be having new revealation being reavealed to us today.