Celtic Orthodox Christian Church

[Super Mickey]

I visited a church site of an uncanonical church calling itself Celtic Orthodox Christian Church here
they are saying that they are the original church before the invasion of britain forcing the catholic faith does anybody knows more info about them ?
did the original church of ireland survived all this time or are they just a new church?

 

[Reader Nilus]

I would say they are a new church. You have various dioceses that are mainstream reviving the Celtic Tradition such as ROCOR, The Coptic Church, and so forth, this is not any part of that.
Jeff the Finn

 

[Suzannah]

Hi SuperMickey!!!!
From my reading, this would have to be a new church. Ireland was evangelized by your people, seven Egyptian monks (Thank you Egypt!), and for many centuries was Orthodox. But after the schism of 1054, they "fell" to the power of Rome.

Click here for real Irish Orthodoxy, under various legitimate jurisdictions:
Look for the page re: the Seven Egyptian monks:
www.orthodoxireland.com/history

 

[Clann Donald]

I'll offer my two cents worth on authentic Celtic Orthodoxy...

Many celebrate the start of a renewal of the Western Rite among the Orthodox. As yet, I only know of one canonical jurisdiction here in the United States (Antiochian).

Check out this site instead: www.westernorthodox.com

As far as Celtic Orthodoxy in the homeland, see this site: www.orthodoxireland.com and www.britishorthodox.org ...These are Oriental Orthodox jurisdictions that in addition to great resources on Celtic Orthodoxy also offers a nice source of info on the ecumenical agreements between Oriental and Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions (they are obviously very hopeful full communion will be restored soon!). See also the related: www.celticorthodoxy.org

Enjoy!

 

[Maximus]

Hi SuperMickey!!!!
From my reading, this would have to be a new church. Ireland was evangelized by your people, seven Egyptian monks (Thank you Egypt!), and for many centuries was Orthodox. But after the schism of 1054, they "fell" to the power of Rome.

Click here for real Irish Orthodoxy, under various legitimate jurisdictions:
Look for the page re: the Seven Egyptian monks:
www.orthodoxireland.com/history

Huh?

Seven "Egyptian monks?"

What about St. Patrick?

I don't have time to examine that "orthodoxireland" web site in detail, but I would be very cautious in swallowing its version of history.

 

[ChoirDir]

These guys apparently don't know their history. From their Bishop's statement it has the Creed which includes the Filioque. Can't be Orthodox!

 

[Suzannah]

Maximus,

Since you don't have time to examine the site, I will simply say: As an Irish person myself, and knowing enough about my own people to establish fact from fiction, and more importantly where to look for information about it, I would have repsond that I have looked into the matter and there is more than meets the eye. Please don't make the mistake of thinking that those of us who are new to Orthodoxy must necessarily be new to history.
Especially, our own.

 

[Suzannah]

Choir Dir: what bishop???? What filioque?
The Orthodox churches in Ireland as listed on the site I posted are governed under the following jurisdictions:

Greek Orthodox Church of the Annunciation
Clergy: Rev. Father Ireneu-Ioan Craciun
Church Address: 46 Arbour Hill, Dublin 7
Telephone: +353 1 677 9020
Services: Saturday 5pm Vespers, Sunday 10am Mattins and 10.30am Divine Liturgy
Languages: Greek, English, Romanian
Diocese: Ecumenical Patriarchate (Archdiocese of Thyateira, Great Britain and Ireland)

Romanian Orthodox Parish of the Exaltation of the Holy Cross
Clergy: Rev. Father Calin Popovici, Rev. Deacon Godfrey O'Donnell
Church Address: Worshipping in Belvedere College Chapel, Great Denmark Street, Dublin
Mailing Address: 5 Cherry Park, Rathingle, Swords, Co. Dublin
Telephone: +353 1 840 4302
Services: Sunday 10.30am Divine Liturgy
Languages: Romanian, English
Diocese: Patriarchate of Romania (Diocese of Central and Western Europe)

Russian Orthodox Church of the Holy Apostles St Peter and St Paul
Clergy: Very Rev. Father Michael Gogoleff, Rev. Father George Zavershinsky
Church Address: Harold's Cross Road, Dublin 6
Telephone: +353 1 496 9038
Email: stpeterandpaul@stpeterandpaul.net
Services: Saturday 4pm Prayers/Confessions and 6pm Vigil, Sunday 10am Divine Liturgy
Languages: Slavonic, English
Outreach Missions: Services also held occasionally in Cork, Galway, and Monaghan
Diocese: Podvorje of the Russian Orthodox Church — Moscow Patriarchate

Belfast

Holy Trinity Orthodox Church
Clergy: Rev. Father Geoffrey Ready
Church Address: 16a Castlereagh Road (First Floor) in East Belfast, near the junction with Beersbridge Road
Mailing Address: The Shepherd's Gate, 18 Ardkeen Avenue, Carnalea, Bangor, Co. Down BT19 1ER
Telephone: +44 28 9146 0348
Email: holytrinity@orthodoxireland.com
Services: Sunday 9.30am Mattins, 10.30am Divine Liturgy
Language: English
Diocese: Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (Diocese of Great Britain and Ireland)

Cork

Chapel of St Nicholas
Visiting Clergy: Rev. Father Ireneu-Ioan Craciun
Church Address: 1 Sydenham Terrace, Monkstown, Cork
Telephone: +353 21 841187
Services: Divine Liturgy (occasionally), weekly reader's services
Language: English
Diocese: Ecumenical Patriarchate (Archdiocese of Thyateira, Great Britain and Ireland)



The following churches or house/garden chapels are served occasionally.

Dublin

Chapel of St John the Baptist
Clergy: Rev. Father Ireneu-Ioan Craciun (his house chapel)
Church Address: 38 Ardmore Crescent, Artane, Dublin 5
Telephone: +353 1 847 4956
Diocese: Ecumenical Patriarchate (Archdiocese of Thyateira, Great Britain and Ireland)

Limavady

Chapel of St George the Victory-Bearer
Visiting Clergy: Rev. Father Ireneu-Ioan Craciun
Church Address: 35 Jane's Valley, Limavady, Co. Londonderry BT49 0EH
Telephone: Mrs Christina Skentos +44 28 7772 2567
Diocese: Ecumenical Patriarchate (Archdiocese of Thyateira, Great Britain and Ireland)

Portarlington

Chapel of the Lifegiving Spring of the Mother of God
Visiting Clergy: Rev. Father Ireneu-Ioan Craciun
Church Address: St Catherine's, Clonanny, Portarlington, Co. Laois
Telephone: Mr Tom Carroll +353 45 525937
Diocese: Ecumenical Patriarchate (Archdiocese of Thyateira, Great Britain and Ireland)

Stradbally

St Colman of Oughaval Orthodox Church
Visiting Clergy: Rev. Father Peter Baulk
Church Address: Stradbally, Co. Laois
Telephone: Mr Adrian Cosby +353 50 225160
Diocese: Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (Diocese of Great Britain and Ireland)

 

[ChoirDir]

No I was talking about the site in the OP. Celtic Orthodox Church

 

[Suzannah]

LOL
!

OH! I thought you meant that Ireland had its own bishop...I thought, "HUH??? That was a fast appointment since last week!)

 

[Maximus]

Suzannah -

Well, Ireland could not have been "evangelized by seven Egyptian monks" if they are supposed to have arrived in the 7th century. St. Patrick had already been there and converted the island in the 5th century. And 7th century Egyptian monks would most likely have been Monophysite heretics - not exactly welcome among the Orthodox Catholics of Ireland.

I noticed that the article about those monks was written by "Abba Seraphim." Could that author be the same as Metropolitan Seraphim of the British Orthodox Church?

I don't know that it is the same person, but the BOC is a group that only recently shed vagante status by aligning itself with the Copts of Egypt (and not the Catholic Copts, either). Anything produced by the BOC must be digested with a large grain of salt.

 

[Suzannah]

Maximus,
I see that you are a purist! Me too...so let's get to nitty gritty.

First, let me simply address the issue regarding Padraig. It is not true that he was solely responsible for the conversion of Ireland. This is but one of many myths surrounding him.
I'll take the most common myths and provide you with proper Irish history as it is taught and generally accepted by Irish scholars (secular).

Padraig was the "Converter" of Ireland: This is simply open for debate. You stated there was no way in could have been the Egyptians if they arrived in the seventh century. To my knowledge, the article did not say that and if it does, then I agree with you. Did I miss something? n More likely far earlier, about the second or third. There is in fact much more evidence to the contrary regarding Padraig.Padraig was not even Irish. He was a Roman citizen from Wales. Even the date of his death is in dispute.
The following article cites some reliable sources of information although the article is in fact "a work in progress" and is not a scholarly work (the best I can do on short notice) Additionally, it would seem that some scribes were already at work illustrating gospels, since two pages of Celtic art showing a Gospel theme, found in the Book of Kells, don't even belong in it and date to earlier than Padraig's arrival in Ireland.
http://www.planorganic.com/st_patrick.htm

Padraig threw snakes out of Ireland: there never were any. This is a common Gaelic use of allusion/allegory. It is a common device in ancient Irish literature. Does anybody really believe that Cuichuillain shapeshifted into a hound??? c'mon!!! The snakes were "Druids" and he did quite effectively help put a stop to many barbaric Druidic practices including blood sacrifices of infants....more proof that we Irish never have been as "gentle" or as "quiet" as some would have it.

It is also quite true that evidence of Egyptian influence of a very early date, are found in the megaliths and "standing stones" of Ireland. http://www.irishmegaliths.org.uk/crosspillars2.htm
This evidence would seem to counter the "Stonehenge" fans who want to maintain a belief, unfounded in Irish history, that it was all the work of druids.
In fact, this may even carry over into early Irish art: compare a "high cross" with Coptic one. I can't help but notice a similarity in design.

As for whether or not this is the same Abba Seraphim: I have no idea and don't intend to debate the merits or lack thereof, of Copts, Oriental Orthodoxy or any other juridical matter. I am simply stating that from an Irish point of view, the article makes sense in light of Irish history. This article is simply substantiated by various sources in Irish history itself. The grave which found and noted in the article does indeed exist.

 

[Maximus]

Well, it seems doubtful to me that Ireland was evangelized by Egyptian monks, and the article of which you speak talks about seven Egyptian monks of the 7th century making their way to Ireland. Whether or not one attributes the conversion of Ireland solely to St. Patrick, the fact remains that he was there a full two hundred years before these Egyptians allegedly arrived.

Egyptians may have traveled to the British Isles in ancient times. It's almost certain the Phoenicians did . . . because of the Cornish trade in tin, an essential component of bronze.

It is certainly possible that some Egyptian monks made their way to Ireland in the 7th century, although it seems highly unlikely. At any rate, if they were there, they don't seem to have had much of an historical impact on the place.

And I was aware of St. Patrick's background.

 

[Suzannah]

I just looked at the article again. It does not say that they evangelized in Ireland in the seventh century. It simply says they were there. And that contact was made. So whether or not, there is an actual connection, the article does not state they "evangelized" in that time frame.
It does not negate the possibility they arrived prior to Padraig.
It only suggests that they may have been coming and going for some time. I don't see the problem with this.

 

[Maximus]

I got the word "evangelized" from your post, not from the article.

Is it likely that monks of Egypt - not a group known for traveling outside of the Egyptian desert - had been coming in a steady stream to Ireland in ancient times?

Not very from what I have read of them.

My own view is that the Christianization of Ireland came from a much nearer source: Romanized Britain. St. Patrick may not have started it or have done it all, but he was responsible for most of it, and he came from the most likely source of Irish Christianity.

 

[Suzannah]

You're welcome to your own view.
Irish secular sources do not support it. And I will leave it at that.

 

[Maximus]

You're welcome to your own view.
Irish secular sources do not support it. And I will leave it at that.

Okay.

Anyway, of all the secular sources I've read, none of them have Ireland converted by Egyptian monks.

 

[espmaelruain]

May God Bless you and yours.

I am amazed to read your claim that the Bishop's Statement of the Celtic Orthodox Christian Church which I coauthored contains the heretical Filioque. I wonder where you came by that erroneous idea.

Our Bishop's Statement, in point of fact, anathematizes it.

The original Irish churches did not use the Filioque. The Romans imposed it.

May Christ's Peace be upon you all.
+Maelruain, Cele De

 

[Rick of Wessex]

Hi, Maximus.

And 7th century Egyptian monks would most likely have been Monophysite heretics

Not necessarily. Remeber that we still have an Orthodox Patriarchate in Egypt to the present day - the Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, from which the Copts split after Chalcedon.

In XC,
Rick

 

[Rick of Wessex]

Oh, and by the way, this "Celtic Orthodox Christian Church" is another baloney sect that claims to be Orthodox.

Here is what Al Green's site says about them:

Celtic Orthodox Christian Church - Akron, OH. This group uses a ritual called the Stowe Missal, a rite not approved for use in the canonical Eastern Orthodox Church.