LDS Celestial Marriage...100% false.

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I was in a ward with two child molestors! I knew a Mormon wife who went to prison.

Read of the tragic temple marriage and Disappearance of Susan Powell.
Disappearance of Susan Powell - Wikipedia



We are heirs together with all true Christians and we don't worship the gods you do.

When people serve demons and their doctrines, there are no surprises when the Scripture, "Satan has come to steal, kill and destroy" has its fulfillment in and through them. I wouldn't be surprised if Susan Powell had seen through the demonic deception and turned to Christ, and her demonised husband took her life and the lives of her two children.

It would really turn the tables on that evil man if he found himself in the fires of hell, while his murdered wife and children were in the arms of Jesus in heaven. I would say that it would suck to be him right now!

 

[Ironhold]

I was in a ward with two child molestors! I knew a Mormon wife who went to prison.

Read of the tragic temple marriage and Disappearance of Susan Powell.
Disappearance of Susan Powell - Wikipedia



We are heirs together with all true Christians and we don't worship the gods you do.

No.

No.

No.



Full stop.

Josh Powell's father was a hard-core anti-Mormon minister who put extreme pressure on Josh while perving on Susan. As the Wiki article itself noted, Powell Sr. had thousands of images of Susan on his computer, many of them focusing on parts of her anatomy, and had also written love songs about her. It is believed, in hindsight at least, that everything Josh did was due at least in part to his father.

I was active online when this case was still on-going, and so had to field more questions and conspiracy theories than you'll ever know. I know what happened because I had to follow the story closely as it came about.



Now... you wanna try again?

 

[Ironhold]

When people serve demons and their doctrines, there are no surprises when the Scripture, "Satan has come to steal, kill and destroy" has its fulfillment in and through them. I wouldn't be surprised if Susan Powell had seen through the demonic deception and turned to Christ, and her demonised husband took her life and the lives of her two children.

It would really turn the tables on that evil man if he found himself in the fires of hell, while his murdered wife and children were in the arms of Jesus in heaven. I would say that it would suck to be him right now!

Nutshell: Josh Powell's father was a perverted minister who kept trying to "save" Josh from being Mormon while secretly recording Susan and other women, some of whom were underage.

Any attempt to bring this case up without examining Powell's father is horrific.

 

[ripple the car]

According to Mormonism, the church fathers did not have priesthood authority. The Priesthood (Aaronic and Melchizedek) was taken from the earth.

"When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy. One example is the Great Apostasy, which occurred after the Savior established His Church. After the deaths of the Savior and His Apostles, men corrupted the principles of the gospel and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances . Because of this widespread apostasy, the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth. This apostasy lasted until Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 and initiated the restoration of the fulness of the gospel."
Apostasy
(lds.org is their official website at this time --- March 2019)

Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13
1 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld many nations and kingdoms.

2 And the angel said unto me: What beholdest thou? And I said: I behold many nations and kingdoms.

3 And he said unto me: These are the nations and kingdoms of the Gentiles.

4 And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church.

5 And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.

6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.

7 And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots.

8 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.

9 And also for the praise of the world do they destroy the saints of God, and bring them down into captivity.

10 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters; and they divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren.

11 And it came to pass that the angel said unto me: Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren.

12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.

14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten.

15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them...

20 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that they did prosper in the land; and I beheld a book, and it was carried forth among them.

21 And the angel said unto me: Knowest thou the meaning of the book?

22 And I said unto him: I know not.

23 And he said: Behold it proceedeth out of the mouth of a Jew. And I, Nephi, beheld it; and he said unto me: The book that thou beholdest is a record of the Jews, which contains the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; and it also containeth many of the prophecies of the holy prophets; and it is a record like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass, save there are not so many; nevertheless, they contain the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; wherefore, they are of great worth unto the Gentiles.

24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
1 Nephi 13

That's just insane, though, and incredibly convenient, that the Gospel was supposedly "lost" right after the Apostles died. But then, we know that men learned from the Apostles and passed on what they learned. We have their names, and even writings. So...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Nutshell: Josh Powell's father was a perverted minister who kept trying to "save" Josh from being Mormon while secretly recording Susan and other women, some of whom were underage.

Any attempt to bring this case up without examining Powell's father is horrific.

It just shows that when demons are involved, whole families are destroyed.

 

[PaulCyp1]

If marriage was eternal, why would the marriage vows include the words "until death do us part", or "as long as we both shall live"?

 

[mmksparbud]

If JS doctrine of plural marriage is a doctrine of demons then you need to read the OT again, with a special emphasis on plural marriage couples. These marriages were sanctioned by the Lord, even in the Law of Moses as a statute, which came by the hand of God.
1 Samuel 1:1-2 King James Version (KJV)
1 Now there was a certain man of Ramathaimzophim, of mount Ephraim, and his name was Elkanah, the son of Jeroham, the son of Elihu, the son of Tohu, the son of Zuph, an Ephrathite.
2 And he had two wives; the name of the one was Hannah, and the name of the other Peninnah: and Peninnah had children, but Hannah had no children.

Hannah went on to have a child and that child, coming from a polygamous marriage was one of the greatest prophets in the OT, Samuel. Was this a doctrine of demons? Or was this a doctrine of Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus.

Peter also tells us that married couples will be heirs of EL, "together".
1 Peter 3:6-7 King James Version (KJV)
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

So be careful to call our marriage doctrines, doctrines of demons, because we have good
support from the bible for how we do things. And our doctrines lead to stronger marriages and stronger families, which have over the years been a great blessing to our members.

When we started out---we married our sisters and brothers---there was no problem with genetics back then. At some point after the flood, that came to an end and God said no more--our genetic faults made that no longer a possibility. God made one man and one woman---He did not make Adam several wives--just one. It was man that started to take more than one. What God allowed for a time is not the same as what He allows now. He clearly said no more inbreeding and He said with the apostles---one wife. He does not reverse Himself, and then reverse again and then....nope. You have no biblical support for plural marriages. The apostles said clearly--one wife. We are no longer living in the age of Abraham.
Act_17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

The believe that plural marriages lead to stronger families and marriages is a figment of your own imaginations in order to carry out the lusts of the flesh. The women get younger and younger and end up with old men with children. It is shameful, not godly.

And Hannah suffered a great deal due to that 2ns marriage. God stepped in to ease her suffering. Samuel was not the offspring of the 2nd wife! And Abraham is no example as his lapse in judgement over that 2nd wife is till being felt today in the animosity in the middle east! God never commanded anyone to take more than one wife! JS is the only one saying he was commanded by God to do so, and threatened his wife with destruction if she did not comply!!! God had nothing to do with it--it was lust pure and simple.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

When we started out---we married our sisters and brothers---there was no problem with genetics back then. At some point after the flood, that came to an end and God said no more--our genetic faults made that no longer a possibility. God made one man and one woman---He did not make Adam several wives--just one. It was man that started to take more than one. What God allowed for a time is not the same as what He allows now. He clearly said no more inbreeding and He said with the apostles---one wife. He does not reverse Himself, and then reverse again and then....nope. You have no biblical support for plural marriages. The apostles said clearly--one wife. We are no longer living in the age of Abraham.
Act_17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

The believe that plural marriages lead to stronger families and marriages is a figment of your own imaginations in order to carry out the lusts of the flesh. The women get younger and younger and end up with old men with children. It is shameful, not godly.

And Hannah suffered a great deal due to that 2ns marriage. God stepped in to ease her suffering. Samuel was not the offspring of the 2nd wife! And Abraham is no example as his lapse in judgement over that 2nd wife is till being felt today in the animosity in the middle east! God never commanded anyone to take more than one wife! JS is the only one saying he was commanded by God to do so, and threatened his wife with destruction if she did not comply!!! God had nothing to do with it--it was lust pure and simple.

Also, in the early stages of Genesis before Noah, people were very fertile and bred like rabbits. Of course we don't really know how much time elapsed between Adam and Noah. Then the flood wiped them all out except Noah's family so the breeding process had to start all over again, and so there was a population explosion right up to the time of Abraham. After that it seemed to slow down a bit.

It reminds me of the "baby boom" after world war 2. I was one of them, born in 1947. There were a lot more male babies born during the late 40s and early 50s than any other time in recent history. Then after the 1950s, things slowed down again.

It is interesting to note that when the Israelites disobeyed and refused to enter Canaan, God made them stay in the wilderness until that whole generation, excluding Caleb and Joshua, died off. That's when He limited the age of that generation (not necessarily everyone else) to 70 years. So, when the disobedient folk reached 70 years old they died, and the whole generation was replaced by their children who grew to adulthood in 40 years. So all the new generation Israelites, apart from Caleb and Joshua, who entered Canaan were 40 years or younger! It may not be part of the topic of this thread, but I found it fascinating information!

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I assume what the text means by 'crowning ordinance" is that celestial marriage, or temple marriage, is the greatest and best rite within the Church to which nothing compares. It suggests that marriage is the final rite which completes the Mormon or at least makes their ascension into the Celestial Kingdom possible wherein they can eternally advance where those who were not celestially married cannot.

While I believe marriage is a sacrament and a very good and holy one at that, to suggest that it is the ultimate sacrament or rite does a disservice to baptism which brings us into Christ. It implies that within Christ something is lacking which can only be fulfilled by marriage. It implies that when we take the Eucharist it is insufficient when compared to marriage (or celestial marriage). Christ and God then become unable to provide what marriage, in the opposite sex, can offer the Mormon.

Those sacraments and rites which bring us to God then are by necessity weaker than this ultimate ordinance which truly completes us. That's an interesting notion within Mormonism itself if I've interpreted it right.

I think the only way a Mormon could contest this is by arguing this was merely the opinion of one Latter Day President. Yet I think he rightly points to something at the heart of Mormon theology. Namely that celestial marriage the ultimate point of the Mormon's existence.

 

[Peter1000]

Sorry my mistake

 

[Peter1000]

How deeply have you studied Christian history up to 500 AD, Peter? Or the Church Fathers? Were they not Christian?

I believe that by the time 500AD came along, the Church of Jesus Christ of the First Century no longer existed. As soon as the apostles were dead, the church fathers started to debate the doctrines and before long the 5 major sees began to fight each other over who was to be preeminent.

In that process the original doctrines were changed and the original organization changed and there were schisms that broke the church into pieces, and the pieces have now amounted to 3,000+ different denominations, all teaching contrary commandments that contradict each other.

This is what we call the apostacy of the true Church of Jesus Christ of the First Century. So that by the 1500's Martin Luther called the pope, who controlled 1/2 of the Christian church, the devil, and the cardinals of the church his minions. So we are not the only people that have seen the apostacy from the true church.

 

[Peter1000]

I assume what the text means by 'crowning ordinance" is that celestial marriage, or temple marriage, is the greatest and best rite within the Church to which nothing compares. It suggests that marriage is the final rite which completes the Mormon or at least makes their ascension into the Celestial Kingdom possible wherein they can eternally advance where those who were not celestially married cannot.

While I believe marriage is a sacrament and a very good and holy one at that, to suggest that it is the ultimate sacrament or rite does a disservice to baptism which brings us into Christ. It implies that within Christ something is lacking which can only be fulfilled by marriage. It implies that when we take the Eucharist it is insufficient when compared to marriage (or celestial marriage). Christ and God then become unable to provide what marriage, in the opposite sex, can offer the Mormon.

Those sacraments and rites which bring us to God then are by necessity weaker than this ultimate ordinance which truly completes us. That's an interesting notion within Mormonism itself if I've interpreted it right.

I think the only way a Mormon could contest this is by arguing this was merely the opinion of one Latter Day President. Yet I think he rightly points to something at the heart of Mormon theology. Namely that celestial marriage the ultimate point of the Mormon's existence.

All people that believe in Jesus will make it to heaven.

If you want to partake of the highest levels of heaven, then you do that which allows you to participate. If you do not wish to partake of the highest levels of heaven, or you have been brought up to believe another doctrine, then you do not do that which allows you to participate. It is just that simple.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that there are certain ordinances that you need to partake of the blessings and glories of the highest levels of heaven. So we do these things in the hopes that it will lead to a better eternal life, closer to God and his Son Jesus Christ.

Celestial marriage is just one of those things that we believe you must do in order to be in the highest levels of heaven. So that is what we do. The by-product of Celestial marriage is a stronger marriage that leads to stronger families and therefore a blessing given to us even here on earth.

 

[Peter1000]

Polycarp - Wikipedia

Irenaeus - Wikipedia

Justin Martyr - Wikipedia

Have you read "Dialogue with Trypho" by Justin Martyr, about 150AD. As I read it, I see many LDS doctrine on display, especially his explanation of the relationship of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. It is a good read, I recommend it.

 

[ripple the car]

Have you read "Dialogue with Trypho" by Justin Martyr, about 150AD. As I read it, I see many LDS doctrine on display, especially his explanation of the relationship of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. It is a good read, I recommend it.

But by then, hadn't the Gospel been corrupted? According to LDS history?

 

[ripple the car]

I believe that by the time 500AD came along, the Church of Jesus Christ of the First Century no longer existed. As soon as the apostles were dead, the church fathers started to debate the doctrines and before long the 5 major sees began to fight each other over who was to be preeminent.

In that process the original doctrines were changed and the original organization changed and there were schisms that broke the church into pieces, and the pieces have now amounted to 3,000+ different denominations, all teaching contrary commandments that contradict each other.

This is what we call the apostacy of the true Church of Jesus Christ of the First Century. So that by the 1500's Martin Luther called the pope, who controlled 1/2 of the Christian church, the devil, and the cardinals of the church his minions. So we are not the only people that have seen the apostacy from the true church.

But that's not actually true, Sir.

 

[Peter1000]

But by then, hadn't the Gospel been corrupted? According to LDS history?

Not totally, but it was slipping fast. This time period is about 40 years since the last apostle lived, and so you can see, even in the Dialogue how things were starting to change, but had not gone completely south. We believe by the time of the Nicean council, the Church of Jesus Christ of the First Century no longer existed.

Constantine had replaced the 12 apostles as the head of the church because the 5 headed Christian church was so compromised and corrupted that even they looked for someone who could lead them, even if it meant they put their allegience in a non-member dictator.

When Constantine became the head of the church, all he wanted was unity, so he could sure up his empire by uniting the people in a religious way. And so the process of uniting began, and in order to united different factions, compromises had to be made, even if you had to compromise what you believed the truth was. As history declares, it was not easy and the compromise created interesting doctrines that tried to smooth out these differences.

By 500AD, the Christian churches that existed had almost nothing in common with the Church of Jesus Christ of the First Century. The organization was completely altered, doctrines were altered, new doctrines were introduced, and confusion of these things still existed, which caused schism after schism, which splintered the mother church into non-existence. Who was teaching the truth?

Men and women throughout the centuries recognized this apostacy and tried to fix it, but could not. And even today you can see the by-product of the apostacy. Some Christian churches teach one must be baptized. Some teach you do not. Some teach that if you are baptized, you are baptized this way. Some say annother way. Some teach that to be saved you must do this. Some say you must do that. So even the simple task of teaching a person what they must do to be saved is debated endlessly. Not a good sign of the true church.

So by Justin Martyrs time it was starting to slip, but he still had vestiges of the original doctrines.

 

[Peter1000]

But that's not actually true, Sir.

Tell me what you think is not true?

 

[dzheremi]

I have tried in the past with Mormons here, including our friend Peter (hi, Peter ), to nail down a definite time of the supposed 'Great Apostasy', but without success. I believe the last time Peter and I discussed it, it was moved to being "in full swing by about 170", in response to my bringing up the condemnation of Montantism, a.k.a. "The New Prophecy" or the Phrygian heresy, by a synod in Phrygia in 177 under the local bishop there whose name is now escaping me. Not only was this necessary due to the obvious similarity between the ancient attempts at prophecy which were rejected by the Church and Mormonism's more recent attempts which were likewise rejected by the Church (showing that we were throwing such people out nearly two millennia before JS was even born, which makes it extremely hard for Mormons to maintain the fiction that the LDS, and not Christianity, is the continuation/restoration of the early Church), but also due to how it shows how the early Church functioned ecclesiastically, which also shows Mormonism to be false: local synods, headed by the bishop of a given area to deal with heresies within his area. (This was all before the age of the ecumenical councils inaugurated in 325, of course, since this is far too late in the Mormon alternate history to be trustworthy.) This shows the clear continuation of the model esetablished by the Apostolic Council of Jerusalem c. AD 50, which is in the Bible itself, so Mormons cannot dissent from it (at least in theory). So when you ask them, then, when and how the 'Great Apostasy' could have occurred, if we can trace the continuing mechanism and structure by which the Church has been maintained back to the Apostles themselves. Then it basically becomes "pick a date which shows the Church acting against proto-Mormon sorts of groups and then claim that is evidence of the 'apostasy', even if it's the same thing that the Church was doing before that date." For example, I haven't read any Mormon yet complain against the Church's condemnation of Marcion in the 140s, even though the Marcionites, like the LDS religion, produced some of his their own scriptures which they combined with canonical scripture to create their own canon. I suspect that Mormons just don't know enough about this stuff, since they do not study Christian history except when forced to, and when they do so it is with an eye towards proving its 'Mormon' character, as our friend Peter has once again falsely done with the beloved saint Justin Martyr.

It's slippery business, this 'Great Apostasy'. It happened whenever it is most convenient to the Mormon to claim that it did, with whatever evidence they think they can muster for it (even if it says the opposite of what they claim, or the part of it they're focusing on is something that the Church rejected -- both of which have been the case with citations of St. Justin from Peter1000 in the past). They are loathe to pick a date and stick with it, or find any actual evidence outside of pointing to their narrative itself.

 

[truefiction1]

If JS doctrine of plural marriage is a doctrine of demons then you need to read the OT again, with a special emphasis on plural marriage couples. These marriages were sanctioned by the Lord, even in the Law of Moses as a statute, which came by the hand of God.
1 Samuel 1:1-2 King James Version (KJV)
1 Now there was a certain man of Ramathaimzophim, of mount Ephraim, and his name was Elkanah, the son of Jeroham, the son of Elihu, the son of Tohu, the son of Zuph, an Ephrathite.
2 And he had two wives; the name of the one was Hannah, and the name of the other Peninnah: and Peninnah had children, but Hannah had no children.

Hannah went on to have a child and that child, coming from a polygamous marriage was one of the greatest prophets in the OT, Samuel. Was this a doctrine of demons? Or was this a doctrine of Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus.

Peter also tells us that married couples will be heirs of EL, "together".
1 Peter 3:6-7 King James Version (KJV)
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

So be careful to call our marriage doctrines, doctrines of demons, because we have good
support from the bible for how we do things. And our doctrines lead to stronger marriages and stronger families, which have over the years been a great blessing to our members.

The Old Testament is now to be interpreted by the Light of Christ. Christ taught monogamy, whereas plural marriages found in the Old Testament are to be understood to be due to the "hardness of hearts".

The very foundation upon which Mormonism stands is a lie: that the Gospel was corrupted, virtually disappearing after the death of the Apostles and needed to be restored by a true prophet who was a teenager living in upstate New York in the early 19th century. Thus, a great deal else is a lie too.

Christ's plan to have the Gospel spread throughout the world by the preaching of it by His Personally selected, Holy Spirit empowered Apostles did not fail. It succeeded and His Church has grown and spread throughout the Church age, because "the gates of death shall not prevail against it". The lives, deeds, and deaths of Christ's followers have been recorded in detail throughout all of the history of Christ's true Church, and these records stand as firm proof that whoever told Joseph Smith that he is a prophet sent to restore the true gospel was not God. God is not a liar or deceiver. We have no need of prophets of the Old Testament sort since Christ, because "On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe." (Hebrews 1:1-2)

The last and final great prophet is the Forerunner and Baptist John. All so-called great prophets since Christ are false prophets, though some of Christ's followers have gifts of prophecy. Their gifts, however, serve within the true Church - never contradicting or introducing anything alien to holy Scripture and holy Tradition.

The Orthodox Church has always believed that a married couple who have consummated their marriage with intimate relations are one flesh, and that this state continues as such eternally. That is what God intended from the beginning. Sin can and does ruin things, but God wills for us, if possible, to be married to one person, and for that marriage to be eternal in the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[twin.spin]

I believe that by the time 500AD came along, the Church of Jesus Christ of the First Century no longer existed. As soon as the apostles were dead, the church fathers started to debate the doctrines and before long the 5 major sees began to fight each other over who was to be preeminent.

In that process the original doctrines were changed and the original organization changed and there were schisms that broke the church into pieces, and the pieces have now amounted to 3,000+ different denominations, all teaching contrary commandments that contradict each other.

This is what we call the apostacy of the true Church of Jesus Christ of the First Century. So that by the 1500's Martin Luther called the pope, who controlled 1/2 of the Christian church, the devil, and the cardinals of the church his minions. So we are not the only people that have seen the apostacy from the true church.

You're entitled to what you believe occurred by 500AD but not equate that to truth as revealed in the Bible.

1) Jesus revealed just the opposite of a "no longer existed" claim when promised:

"Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Mat 28:20 KJV​

Biblical Christianity has always taught and trusted Jesus' revealed promise.

2) Concerning Luther:
Craig Harline is a history professor at BYU (a Mormon professor)
In a podcast from 2017, he said:

“The system that Luther grew up in — and the reason he entered the monastery and the reason he had these pangs of conscience — said basically do the best you can, and Jesus will do the rest. That sounds a lot like ‘You're saved by grace after all you can do,’ in the usual way that’s interpreted. …"

… “One of the things my students learn by the end of the Reformation class is that they have a lot more in common with Catholics than they do with Protestants.”...

… “But the truth — if you believe in Luther’s truth — is quite against this idea of being saved by doing everything you can. It’s quite against that. He believes with Paul, it’s either grace or works. It cannot be a combination. It has to be one or the other, and he’s sure it’s grace because no human can do enough – or do anything, in fact – to save themselves.”​

Let that sink in Peter1000 before any scripted reply given. Follow the dots Peter1000 ...

• … Luther opposed Catholicism's gospel plan of salvation
• … then Paul would oppose Mormonism's gospel plan of salvation
• … then the Bible as revealed opposes Mormonism's gospel plan of salvation