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Featured LDS Celestial Marriage...100% false.

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Phoebe Ann, Mar 12, 2019.

  1. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    “This is the crowning ordinance of the Gospel and crowning ordinance of the temple.”
    Chapter 15: Eternal Marriage, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Fielding Smith (2013), 191–202
    Chapter 15: Eternal Marriage
     
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  2. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

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    All of the Mormons I've met have been absolute sweethearts. It is sad and upsetting that these guys stay where they are. They must have doubts, they must.
     
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  3. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    I knew some very nice Mormons when I was a member. It's doubly hard to leave when all your parents, grandparents, and siblings are disappointed if you leave. :(

    I didn't have to face that situation.
     
  4. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    It is an example of people departing from sound doctrine to doctrines of demons.
     
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  5. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    That's... rather insulting, actually.

    I say this as someone who's spent more time studying hostile material than most of the mainline Christians who show it to me have spent studying the Bible.

    No, I'm not exaggerating. Some of the people who have tried to "show me the light" over the years, by their own admission, hadn't even read it all the way through.
     
  6. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Hmm. And here I thought the fullness and blessings of the gospel are to be found in salvation through the crucifixion, death, and glorious resurrection of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ. You know, like it says in the Bible that we supposedly don't read (e.g., 1 Corinthians 15).

    Silly me. :doh:
     
  7. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    If JS doctrine of plural marriage is a doctrine of demons then you need to read the OT again, with a special emphasis on plural marriage couples. These marriages were sanctioned by the Lord, even in the Law of Moses as a statute, which came by the hand of God.
    1 Samuel 1:1-2 King James Version (KJV)
    1 Now there was a certain man of Ramathaimzophim, of mount Ephraim, and his name was Elkanah, the son of Jeroham, the son of Elihu, the son of Tohu, the son of Zuph, an Ephrathite.
    2 And he had two wives; the name of the one was Hannah, and the name of the other Peninnah: and Peninnah had children, but Hannah had no children.

    Hannah went on to have a child and that child, coming from a polygamous marriage was one of the greatest prophets in the OT, Samuel. Was this a doctrine of demons? Or was this a doctrine of Yahweh/Jehovah/Jesus.

    Peter also tells us that married couples will be heirs of EL, "together".
    1 Peter 3:6-7 King James Version (KJV)
    6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
    7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

    So be careful to call our marriage doctrines, doctrines of demons, because we have good
    support from the bible for how we do things. And our doctrines lead to stronger marriages and stronger families, which have over the years been a great blessing to our members.
     
  8. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    You read the bible, but don't be confused that the average Christian is as studious as you. Most Christians have read part of the bible, but I would be surprized if the average Christian has read both the OT and the NT with any real intent, like you and I read it.

    I doubt that we have a full understanding of what the fullness and blessing are that await those that gain EL.

    The crucifiction and the atonement and the resurrection allow mortal men to gain heaven, but what happens after that? Difficult to say, but it can be said that according to our works and how well be obeyed Jesus's commands on earth, we will find ourselves being next to Jesus and God or not. We may have gained heaven, but will we recieve of its fullness?

    And what do you think is the fullness of heaven?
     
  9. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    We research our doubts and find that what caused the doubt was not fully the truth and when the whole truth is known, we come out the other side stronger in the faith.
     
  10. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    I wouldn't myself above other people like that. Wisdom is not in reading -- it is in understanding. (cf. the Ethiopian and St. Philip)

    EL = eternal life (I'm assuming)? If yes, then who could? Only God Himself and the saints who surround Him before the Throne, not any of us here on the earth, where we are as sojourners for now.

    What this has to do with the anti-Biblical doctrine of the Mormon religion concerning marriage in heaven is beyond me. Please enlighten me as to the connection, because I am not seeing it, even as you quote in other posts about OT prophets who had multiple wives, as we know much was allowed according to the hardness of people's hearts, as our Lord Jesus Christ says concerning divorce in the time of Moses, for instance. (Matthew 19:8)

    According to our works? No! No way. According to our cooperation with God that He may complete the good work which He has begun in us (Philippians 1:6) is the Christian way. We do not and cannot 'earn' heaven by our own deeds -- all good reward is only by God's work in us. So it is not a matter of laws and ordinances, as though we are Jews, but of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life (as He is described in the Creed).

    The Christian life is cooperative, not dictatorial, because even as Moses was given the commandments written by the finger of God, it was by his cooperation that God's law was actually manifest in the people. (Remember that at first he did not want to lead them, and in the end he was brought down by hubris, showing that it was God guiding them all the time, with Moses as His chosen one -- the good is not credited to Moses, and there are many fathers, following St. Paul, who identify the 'rock' which followed them throughout their journey as preconfiguration of our Lord Jesus Christ.)

    From the Orthodox perspective, we receive God in His fullness in communion. The liturgy is rightly thought of as the foretaste of heaven itself, but only in that sense is there a 'fullness' that we do not yet know, because of course we are not permanently there yet. But we know what we will receive to the extent that we are receiving it now here on earth, and of course Christ represents the literal joining together of the heavens with the earth at the incarnation, so that when we proclaim the holy body and the precious blood to be present before us in communion, we can rightly say that God is with us in the gathered place (and we do). It is similar too with the calling down of the Holy Spirit upon the gifts during the Eucharistic prayers. The Holy Spirit is literally present there, just as in heaven, as He, being God, fills all things. (We do not have the carnal view as expressed in Mormon theology whereby God is physically bound in space and time, but that He should choose to make Himself bounded, as He did in the incarnation of His Word, Jesus Christ, the Only-Begotten Son of God, Who was truly incarnate and took flesh from the holy virgin Theotokos St. Mary, which was true human flesh, just as our is, as He was in all things like us except sin, as St. Paul reminds us in Hebrews 4:15.)

    It is all speculation from here, as we both recognize, but I believe there is wisdom to be had concerning this in the sermon given during the funeral for the martyrs of the New Year's day attack on the Church of the Saints in Alexandria in 2011 by HG Bishop Moussa, as you can hear in the following video (beginning at 3:29; the prayers before that said by Fr. Tadros Y. Malaty, while beautiful and holy, do not address this question):



    It is a place of happiness in the resurrection to our perfection, in a place without death or pain or corruption of any kind, where we will be surrounded by the holy saints with whom together we will join in endless praise of God. As we praised Him together while on earth, so it will be in heaven, as heaven is the endless joy of being with God. It is not as in other religions a place of carnal pleasure (as we will not be bound in carnal bodies anymore), but of complete and utterly fulfilling spiritual union with God and with one another.

    I strongly suspect (and this is just private opinion, but since you asked...) that we will be as our first parents were in the Garden, before the fall, where they had such perfect and innocent spiritual union with God and with one another, before the whisperings of the serpent came. This 'natural' state of things is what some of the fathers have written was the 'purpose' of our creation in the first place -- that we should be in an innocent and natural constant communion with God, in a place of purity in all ways, and that the knowledge of God and would thereby come according to our own development (read: God wanted to give Adam and Eve the knowledge of the Tree, but they were not ready for it, and yet took it when He had specifically told them not to because of their unreadiness; in this reading, Genesis is a story of loss of innocence due to corruption and accompanying exile, which is interesting when you consider the Jewish history with exile), which here on earth has been in some sense made into a minefield by the reality of sin, but in heaven is a matter of Theosis -- the endless progression in unity with God.

    This kind of thinking, which is not without its challenges across Christian history (for a modern recap, see for instance Fr. Athanasius Iskander of the Coptic Orthodox Church on some terminology that is preferable to 'Theosis'), is probably a sort of commonality between Christianity and Mormonism. We would definitely say, however, that Mormonism gets it wrong in that its perfection is (and please correct me if I'm wrong on this point, but this is how I've understood it) in mortal men progressing into becoming a God with all the powers and such that God the Father has. That is definitely not the case with regard to Christianity, because Theosis or Theopoiesis (whichever you prefer; I'm not sure I agree with Fr. Athanasius or for that matter HH Pope Shenouda III in their criticisms of Theosis, which my own bishop and priest have both spoken approvingly of) are about unity with God -- God stays God, and we stay people, but people who are 'Sons of God' by adoption (as explained in the PDF at the link), distinct from Christ Who is God by nature. (This is why, just by the way, I'm always harping on the Creed's use of ousia; you can't really understand Christian theology unless you understand what is historically affirmed about nature/s, and how the use of these terms and the theology behind them are utterly distinct from the Mormon theology, which is trapped in carnality.)
     
  11. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    The temple ceremony and marriage in the temple and their associated committments to live a higher level of Christianity is the very thing that Paul was talking about that the Corinthians rejected.
    1 Corinthians 3:2 King James Version (KJV)
    2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

    Did the Corinthians ever move to the higher level of Christian living, or did they continue to reject the meat of the gospel?
     
  12. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    JS just made the Bible say what he wanted it to say. Just because some in the OT had multiple wives did not mean that it was God's standard for marriage. In fact, any Mormon leader ever who had more than one wife was and is disqualified for church leadership because Paul's instructions for a leader was that they had to have "one wife". Therefore any person who thinks he is a church leader guiding other believers and has more than one wife is not a leader in God's eyes at all, so any doctrine he puts forward does not come from the Holy Spirit, even if he does quote the Bible. JS had more than one wife, so he was totally disqualified to teach any doctrine at all, so if he wasn't operating from the Holy Spirit, then he must have been operating from another spirit, and so his doctrines are not from the Holy Spirit, but from another spirit.
     
  13. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    Jacob 2:30 -

    Jacob 2

    30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
     
  14. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

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    How deeply have you studied Christian history up to 500 AD, Peter? Or the Church Fathers? Were they not Christian?
     
  15. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

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  16. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    According to Mormonism, the church fathers did not have priesthood authority. The Priesthood (Aaronic and Melchizedek) was taken from the earth.

    "When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy. One example is the Great Apostasy, which occurred after the Savior established His Church. After the deaths of the Savior and His Apostles, men corrupted the principles of the gospel and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances . Because of this widespread apostasy, the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth. This apostasy lasted until Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 and initiated the restoration of the fulness of the gospel."
    Apostasy
    (lds.org is their official website at this time --- March 2019)

    Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13
    1 And it came to pass that the angel spake unto me, saying: Look! And I looked and beheld many nations and kingdoms.

    2 And the angel said unto me: What beholdest thou? And I said: I behold many nations and kingdoms.

    3 And he said unto me: These are the nations and kingdoms of the Gentiles.

    4 And it came to pass that I saw among the nations of the Gentiles the formation of a great church.

    5 And the angel said unto me: Behold the formation of a church which is most abominable above all other churches, which slayeth the saints of God, yea, and tortureth them and bindeth them down, and yoketh them with a yoke of iron, and bringeth them down into captivity.

    6 And it came to pass that I beheld this great and abominable church; and I saw the devil that he was the founder of it.

    7 And I also saw gold, and silver, and silks, and scarlets, and fine-twined linen, and all manner of precious clothing; and I saw many harlots.

    8 And the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold the gold, and the silver, and the silks, and the scarlets, and the fine-twined linen, and the precious clothing, and the harlots, are the desires of this great and abominable church.

    9 And also for the praise of the world do they destroy the saints of God, and bring them down into captivity.

    10 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters; and they divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren.

    11 And it came to pass that the angel said unto me: Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren.

    12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

    13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.

    14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten.

    15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

    16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them...

    20 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that they did prosper in the land; and I beheld a book, and it was carried forth among them.

    21 And the angel said unto me: Knowest thou the meaning of the book?

    22 And I said unto him: I know not.

    23 And he said: Behold it proceedeth out of the mouth of a Jew. And I, Nephi, beheld it; and he said unto me: The book that thou beholdest is a record of the Jews, which contains the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; and it also containeth many of the prophecies of the holy prophets; and it is a record like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass, save there are not so many; nevertheless, they contain the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; wherefore, they are of great worth unto the Gentiles.

    24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

    25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

    26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

    27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

    28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

    29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.

    1 Nephi 13
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
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  17. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    The priesthood went into history the moment that Jesus died on the cross and the curtain of the Temple was ripped from top to bottom. God ripped the Temple curtain to show that the way into the holy of holies was now open to all, and that every converted believer became a king and a priest, so that they did not need a mediator or a human priest to go right into the presence of God and before God's throne of grace.

    I think you know that already, so I am probably preaching to the choir! :)
     
  18. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Dream on!
     
  19. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Maybe a higher level of deception! :)
     
  20. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    I was in a ward with two child molestors! I knew a Mormon wife who went to prison.

    Read of the tragic temple marriage and Disappearance of Susan Powell.
    Disappearance of Susan Powell - Wikipedia



    We are heirs together with all true Christians and we don't worship the gods you do.
     
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