The cross is not an idol, however, if it includes a representation of Christ on it it does because Christ is not on the cross. He died and rose on the 3rd day and now sits in heaven interceding for YOU and ME!
He died and rose on the 3rd day and now sits in heaven interceding for YOU and ME!
Peace be with you, Major1.
Major1:
Mirror, mirror, on the wall,
Who knows Holy Scripture the Best of All?
Mirror on the Wall:
Are you asking me or telling me?
Major1:
Just tell me the Truth.
Mirror on the Wall:
Major1, because I am only a mirror.
You're so Right, Major1 because I am only a mirror. You know so much about Holy Scripture that I am in awe of your Amazing Knowledge.
But I'm still Catholic just like the rest of my compatriots.
Your Amazing Knowledge cannot cure our Catholicism because let's face it, all you have is Head Knowledge. You are an Expert at that.
And that is as good as an artist who thinks himself great but when asked to paint refuses to paint for fear of being wrong.
Years and years of building on what you believed to be right. Now you cannot face the truth when people are showing and proving to you, you could be wrong.
You refuse to accept and face reality because of the pride in yourself believing yourself to be right while others are not, believing yourself True while others are false, believing yourself to be bringer of True Salvation while others practise falsehood, believing yourself to know Holy Scripture the Best of All while others are wrong.
Face reality, Major1. Come back down to earth.
Come and visit the Catholic Church and treat us as your friends.
We will cherish you and love you.
God bless you, Major1.
So how would you explain 1Cor. 1:23. Why do you think Paul preaches Christ crucifed?
So here in this life Major1, do you believe we share much in the glory of Christ' suffering on the cross or the glory of the Resurrection?
The thing is, though, is that all of these passages exist in the same Bible--and even in the same books of the Bible--that speak of Baptism. Acts 2:38 says, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.", in Matthew 28 Jesus commissions His Church to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit and instructing them on all that I have taught", in Galatians 3:27 St. Paul writes, "All of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ", in Romans 6 Paul writes, "All of us who were baptized into Christ were baptized into His death" and that we have been "buried with Him in baptism". In 1 Peter 3:21 it says, "this [the water of the deluge] prefigures baptism which now saves you, not by cleaning dirt off the body, but by the pledge of a new conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ", in Ephesians 5:26 St. Paul writes, that Jesus has washed His bride, "by the washing of water by the word" and in Titus 3:5 says "it is not by works of righteousness that we have been saved, but by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" and in John 3:5 concerning the new birth our Lord Himself teaches that the new birth is being "born of water and the Spirit".
Further, salvation comes because we are justified by grace through faith, as the Apostle writes, "For by one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by one Man's obedience the many were justified." That it is by the righteousness of Christ that we are righteous, and this is by grace through faith; and from whence comes faith? "It is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8) and also "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ" (Romans 10:17).
Nobody can call on the name of the Lord unless they have received the word. It is impossible without faith, and faith comes not by human effort but rather by the gift of God, given to us by the word; the same word by which we are washed in baptism (again, "the washing of water by the word"). It is not by human effort that we by our own power, strength, and/or will can call on God to save us; it is on account of the faith given to us by God graciously through the Means He has instituted: "baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit and teaching them all I have said", "go out into the world and preach the Gospel to every living creature", "that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem"; "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit", "All of us who were baptized into Christ have died with Christ ... buried with Him ... that we might walk in newness of life", "all of you baptized into Christ have put on Christ", "the word comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ", "all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved", "for it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast", "May I boast in nothing except the cross of Jesus Christ", "while we were still yet sinners Christ died for us", "Not by works of righteousness were you saved, but by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."
And so on and so forth.
We have from the Lord the Means by which we go out into the world, through which God appropriates the work of Christ, for this reason we preach and we baptized, to make disciples, that the Holy Spirit brings them in and makes them part of the one Body of Christ ("For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit."), having been born from above by the power of the Spirit, sealed with the Spirit, having received the Spirit by the promises of God which are given in Christ, again: "baptized...receive the Holy Spirit", and "born of water and the Spirit", and "washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit".
Our salvation does not come by us doing the right things, thinking the right things, or believing the right things. Our salvation is achieved by the death and resurrection of Jesus, which is ours by the grace of God, granted to us by faith, given to us by the Means Christ Himself gave His Church, namely Word and Sacrament.
Nobody comes to God by their own power.
Nobody comes to God apart from the working of the Holy Spirit through the Means of God's grace.
God makes this happen, by His own gracious working through the Means instituted by Christ for the Church.
You would not believe unless God had given you faith which He did through the Means He instituted for His Church--unless it had been declared to you that Christ had died for your sins, and God raised Him up from the dead, and that you are forgiven all your sins you would know nothing of Christ, and would not and could not confess Him as your Lord and Savior. For no one can say "Jesus Christ is Lord except by the Holy Spirit". Unless God granted to you faith by which to confess and trust upon Him, it could not be done, and He did this through the Means of Word and Sacrament. A person can believe they did it, they can think that they by their own initiative sought God out, but they did not, "For there is none who seeks God, no not one", for "the heart is wicked and desperately sick, who can understand it?" You, a degenerate and wretch of a sinner--like me, like everyone else--has hope solely on the grace of God in Jesus Christ, and He saved you by this very grace He has for you in Jesus--He did this without your permission, He did this without your consent, He did this because He loves you and desires to save you and to save the whole world--and for this very reason He established a Church, and told her to preach, to baptize, to be the instrument through which the Mystery of Salvation is communicated and distributed to all nations and that He Himself works through this for the salvation of the world.
-CryptoLutheran
No, I provided the link to the full article from the Vatican site, so I am not violating anything.
Letter to Artists, (April 4, 1999) | John Paul II
So your accusation is as phony as your false idolatry charge.
You can read that much so there is hope.
Craftsman refers to people.
Where in the Pope's letter to artists does he command Catholics to worship any kind of image?
Do you have any T shirts with designs or graphics on them or are they all plain solid colors?
Refuting radical iconoclasm is a piece of cake. All you have to stand on is false perceptions, a refusal to accept biblical definitions, and a distortion of Exodus 20.
I am not the one insulting people with false charges of idol worship. Your false perceptions, a refusal to accept biblical definitions, denial of good use of images in the Temple, a denial of the meaning of the bronze serpent, and a distortion of Ex. 20...your excuses to criticize the proper (and biblical) use of images have all been dismantled.As you have know made it abundantly clear that you do not have the Bible knowledge or the clarity of thought to carry on a debate civilly, the only thing then left for you to do is make personal comments and attacks which is nothing more than the actions of a bully.
You are using a grave sin as a non sequitur fallacy against the biblical use of statues to support your blind prejudice.What did the people who came out of Egypt do the very minute they had the opportunity. They made a golden calf and bowed down to it and worshipped it.
I am not the one insulting people with false charges of idol worship.
No, you don't stick with the original. God forbids the worship of carved images, that you can't read. Nowhere in scripture does God forbid ALL images, or there would never be a bronze serpent, or numerous images in the Temple. You are asserting a type of Gnosticism.
Now, end this discussion and find a verse where God forbids the use of ALL images for Christian purposes.
All you have offered so far to support your contention is baseless mis-perceptions, a stubborn refusal to accept a biblical definition, and a distortion of Exodus 20.
Isn't it funny that we always think the truth comes from those we agree with.
Yes I am and will always be stuck in the truth of God's Word.
Ex, 20:4-5..........
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me".
You can make up an excuse you want to believe. I am going to stick with the original.
Nobody is bowing down in a manner of worship to any painting or statue, that's your blind prejudice talking and it has nothing to do with the facts. What Jesus and Mary actually looked like is irrelevant to an artistic depiction, and true details is not what the Bible is for.
So what. God gave us imaginations and He expects us to use it. Everyone uses their imagination to stir up mental images when hymns are sung, so according to you, your brain becomes an idol and should be banned.
The oldest painting of Jesus on His mothers lap, in the Roman Catacombs, where Catholics would hide from Roman persecution, 150 AD.
But you have nothing to do with the Church of 150 AD
You said...........
"So what. God gave us imaginations and He expects us to use it. Everyone uses their imagination to stir up mental images when hymns are sung, so according to you, your brain becomes an idol and should be banned."
NO, everyone does not stir up mental images when a hymn is sung. That is your personal opinion.
What you are saying actually confirms the Scripture given by Paul in 2 Corth. 11:14....
“Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light”.
In other words, sometimes Satan puts on a disguise (as it were), and makes it look like he actually stands for good instead of evil. When the devil offered to feed Jesus by turning rocks into bread, he was masquerading as one who wanted to do good–or as an angel of light (see Matthew 4:1-11).
But Satan is not an angel of good or of light; he is the opposite. Jesus said that Satan “was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies” (John 8:44). Satan will try to deceive us and make us think that his way is best–but it never is. Martin Luther rightly labeled him “the prince of darkness.” Don’t fall for his lies!
Why is it so hard for you to accept that worship of statues or images is strictly forbidden? Do you think the Church, that invented the university, promotes stupidity?Now why do YOU think that it is that so hard for you to read and grasp the words right out of the Bible????
It only takes 2 functioning neurons to see that God is not worshiped in that manner. They did not worship the pillar of cloud but worshiped God through it.It does not require a Doctorate in theology to see that it is idolatry to worship false gods or the true God by statues or pictures.
This blindness is your main problem.As I have said before, no one knows how Jesus or Mary looks like so how can you make an image of him? God is not wood, stone, or metal and he will not be worshipped as if he was a man-made item.
Your arguments are repeated and pointless. And none of your list of scriptures bans the proper biblical use of images. What is banned is the worship of them, and you refuse to accept that statues and images of Jesus, Mary and the saints are NOT worshiped as your false perceptions won't have it any other way.I really do think that you had a great idea. Why don't YOU just stop arguing and posting comments to me and that way I will not have to respond and the problem is solved. Remember, YOU approached me first. I did not seek you our in any way.
You said..........
"You must remember that God knows what is in our prayers and Hearts. Do you really think that God believes that we are worshiping a piece of wood or a statue etc? Please, give God credit for knowing those that follow Him!!!"
That is not the point at all. The point is, the problem is what MEN think when they bow down to a statue of Mary.
Can you not at least see how the bowing down to a graven statue opens the door of men to place their faith in an object instead of the Lord Jesus. Surely you can see that. I can understand how you would be reluctant to admit it but it seems to me that it would be impossible you not to see how the door of opened to Satan.
You know, the Scripture in Exodus 20 is not optional. It was not given so that in 2017 so that we could give excuses and explinations and break that Bible commandment from God.
Again, you cast judgement!
You are reacting to what you see with your human eyes.
God can see into the heart and soul.
Again, I know of no Catholic who worships anyone other than God. If I bow to a Crucifix, it is in memory and love and respect for what Jesus did for us.
God know our minds.
If I bow in front of a statue, again, it is in reverence for who that statues represents in my mind.
The most important thing is not what others think. No.
What God knows is the most important thing.
Scripture in Exodus was given for very specific reason. The people of that time worshiped 'anything'.
Major1, you are lost in your sometimes 'literal' reading of scripture. It shows that you do not really understand it's true meaning.
The CC has the true meaning.
Why is it so hard for you to accept that worship of statues or images is strictly forbidden? Do you think the Church, that invented the university, promotes stupidity?
It only takes 2 functioning neurons to see that God is not worshiped in that manner. They did not worship the pillar of cloud but worshiped God through it.
This blindness is your main problem.
Your arguments are repeated and pointless. And none of your list of scriptures bans the proper biblical use of images. What is banned is the worship of them, and you refuse to accept that statues and images of Jesus, Mary and the saints are NOT worshiped as your false perceptions won't have it any other way.
Your other problem is this unbiblical notion that we can only pray to God and no one else. This too is unbiblical.
“The Bible never shows anyone praying to anyone other than God! And we can never communicate to anyone who is dead, either; that’s occultic!”
Yet it’s indisputable that Jesus indeed plainly teaches the very thing that they claim is nonexistent in Scripture. In His story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31), we find our compelling prooftext:
Luke 16:24...
...Protestant theology also generally teaches that we can’t talk to anyone who is dead, let alone make intercessory requests to them. Yet King Saul talked to the dead prophet Samuel (1 Sam 28:12-15), Moses and Elijah appeared at the Mount of Transfiguration (Mt 17:1-3), the “Two Witnesses” of Revelation (11:3-13) came back to life again (and talked to folks); so did those who rose after Jesus’ Resurrection (Mt 27:50-53), etc...
...We conclude, then, that Jesus sanctioned “prayer to” dead men for requests. That is the traditional notion of “communion of saints.”
WORSHIPING GOD THROUGH IMAGES IN HOLY SCRIPTURE
Exodus 33:9-11
2 Chronicles 7:1-4
According to Reformed Protestant iconoclastic thinking, they were worshiping a cloud and fire. I say they were worshiping God *through* those images. If not, then the Bible wouldn't have presented these things positively. They would have been condemned as idolatry. But they were not.
Idolatry requires one to be substituting any created thing for God Himself. Using something as a visual or devotional aid is not *necessarily* or always doing that. One is worshiping God by means of the visual aid.
For a crucifix (for example) to be "idolatry" (as some Protestants hold) one would have to believe the hyper-ridiculous thing that a piece of plaster is
1) actually God, or a god;
and
2) meant to replace the one true God as a substitute (an idol).
I submit that virtually no Christian in the history of the world who knows ANYTHING about the faith has ever done such a silly thing. They're obviously worshiping Jesus (God) by means of the visual aid.
I can see how a Protestant would object to a statue of Mary or other saint, because they falsely think veneration is worship, and that belongs only to God. I can't understand (even under Protestant premises) the objection to a statue of Jesus or a crucifix: not since the incarnation and Jesus Himself being the "image [Gk., "eikon"] of the invisible God." Protestants have no objection, oddly enough, to statues of Luther in front of seminaries, or huge statues of John Calvin and three other guys in Geneva on the "Reformation Wall."
Dave Armstrong
I will be glad to help you with this.
Exodus 20:4-5............
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me.".
Deuteronomy 4:23-24.........
" Be careful not to forget the covenant of the LORD your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the LORD your God has forbidden. For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."
Deuteronomy 4:16-18........
" so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the sky, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water below the earth."
Leviticus 26:1 ..........
“Do not make idols or set up carved images, or sacred pillars, or sculptured stones in your land so you may worship them. I am the LORD your God."
Psalm 97:7 A.....
"All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols– worship him, all you gods!"
Isaiah 44:8-11 ........
"Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.” All who make idols are nothing, and the things they treasure are worthless. Those who would speak up for them are blind; they are ignorant, to their own shame. Who shapes a god and casts an idol, which can profit nothing? People who do that will be put to shame; such craftsmen are only human beings. Let them all come together and take their stand; they will be brought down to terror and shame."
Jeremiah 10:14-15 .............
"Every man is stupid and without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his idols, for his images are false, and there is no breath in them. They are worthless, a work of delusion; at the time of their punishment they shall perish."
Now why do YOU think that it is that so hard for you to read and grasp the words right out of the Bible????
It does not require a Doctorate in theology to see that it is idolatry to worship false gods or the true God by statues or pictures. As I have said before, no one knows how Jesus or Mary looks like so how can you make an image of him? God is not wood, stone, or metal and he will not be worshipped as if he was a man-made item.
I really do think that you had a great idea. Why don't YOU just stop arguing and posting comments to me and that way I will not have to respond and the problem is solved. Remember, YOU approached me first. I did not seek you our in any way.
I am sure that in your heart you believe "it is in reverence for who that statues represents in my mind."
But my dear friend, that is "Rationalization" and again, it does not matter what YOU are thinking it only matters what God has said that we should not do.
IF you choose to do it, as I have said, please go right ahead and do so. You do not have to try and convince me of your actions.
All I have done is state to you all what God has said. It is not up to me to approve of what you do or condemn you for doing it.
So, in effect, you could very well be the one being deceived Major1........
“You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me”.
I thought that we had ended our debate. But here you are again.
Now please remember again that YOU have come seeking me out once again.
You did not post what it is that you are referring to so I can only assume it was to the previouse conversation where I posted the Scripture and stated .........
"What you are saying actually confirms the Scripture given by Paul in 2 Corth. 11:14....
“Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light”.
My dear friend, people all over this world have the idea that Satan has cloven hoves, horns and is red with smoke coming out of his ears. That kind of silliness comes from Greek mythology where the god Pan was portrayed as half animal and half man and was bowed down to and worshipped as Dionysus.
Making Satan to be like Pan is not scriptural in any way what so ever, because Scripture describes Satan an ANGEL OF LIGHT. If he made himself visible today he would be of breathtaking beauty. He would be the prettiest woman you ever saw, or the most handsome man to ever live. He could be the coldest beer ever made.
To that fact Paul goes on in the very next verse to say in 2 Corth. 11:15.............
"Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works."
Now you asked me.................."You could be the very one deceived".
But we must remember that Satan knows who is saved and who is not, and so do his agents described in the Bible as demons, principalities, and powers. They will never ever stop trying to temp us and deceive us.
NOW why do you think that I quote so much Scripture???? You have never asked but now that I have asked you, why do you think so????
It is because all men are sinners and we all are tempted and yes, we all can be deceived.......
BUT THE WORD OF GOD CAN NOT BE TEMPTED, NEITHER CAN IT BE DECEIVED.
While Satan has lost his grip on those written in the Book of Life, meaning he will not be spending eternity with us, his focus now changes to making us ineffective in the service of God.
And may I say to you that that thought would apply to you as well.
This was given by God specifically to the people of that time. They were very prone to worship ANYTHING!
This is VERY obvious as God knows that no Catholic / Christian would ever make an image and worship it.
Only you believe that Catholics do.
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