Catholics, what exactly do you believe about Mary?

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Major1

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Having spent 30 years in Protestant churches and bible studies, I have seen a large number of Protestant believers pray with a Bible in there hands; I respectfully disagree with you. But we both know it's not Bible worship, and neither is praying in front of a physical reminder of heavenly realities. A crucifix is not an idol, but brings to mind the extent of His love for us.

I can promise you that they were holding that Bible for no reason at all which included believing it was an idol and I reality I think you know that as well.

If a person is standing and asked to pray for the group and he has his Bible in his hands, that does not in any way mean it is an object of prayer. I believe we both know that is a long way from bowing down to acknowledge the presence of a statue.

Agreed on the crucifix. The cross is not an idol, however, if it includes a representation of Christ on it it does because Christ is not on the cross. He died and rose on the 3rd day and now sits in heaven interceding for YOU and ME!

Good point, God bless.
 
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Major1

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I've never seen a Catholic "bow down" to wood, marble or plaster, we are not so STUPID as to think the veneration stops there.

A work of art that inspires does not mean it is an idol. Would a person studying art in university get kicked out of your church?

1200px-Michelangelo%27s_Pieta_5450_cropncleaned_edit.jpg


For God's sake Major1, it's a DEPICTION!!
and you want to call it evil?​

I am sorry my friend but the answer is yes.

I find it very interesting that you would say...............
"I've never seen a Catholic "bow down" to wood, marble or plaster."

All these years in A Catholic church and YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN A CATHOLI BOW DOWN TO WOOD MARBLE OR PLASTER.

That to me is astonishing!!!! I have been in several Catholic churches over my years. I have been to funerals, and gatherings and just attending with friends and neighbors and EVRY SINGLE time I see the people approach the statues of Jesus, Mary and Joseph, stop bow down to one knew and cross themselves.

Isn't it amazing that you have never seen that at all?????????

For many reasons.

#1....God said that in Exodus 20:4-5..............
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me".

My dear friend......I did not write those words. You say....."For the sake of God" and in my opinion that is exactly why He said to NOT DO IT.

Again.....I did not say it. I did not produce it. I was not asked for any input at all.

All I have done is post the words that GOD SAID so actually your problem is with Him and not me in any way.

Then there is the problem of recognition. There are NO PAINTINGS of Jesus , or Mary or anyone else. Those that you see today are all produced out of the imaginations of painters who lived approx. 1500 years after the death of all those Bible individuals.

The reality of life is that New Testament Gospels contain no reference to Jesus’ and Mary's appearance, much less a description of them. We don’t know what they looked like so how in the world can anyone really know who they are bowing down to.

The paintings and statues are out of someone's imagination.
 
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Major1

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Like I have said before, God know what is in the heart of the person praying. Be it standing, kneeling or lying down in front of a statue!!

Major1..... You should not judge by what you 'think' you see!

I hear you my friend. And you are right and I have said right here several times that I am not the enemy neither am I a judge. But that excuse does not take away from the obvious that we can observe what is right in front of us. That is NOT judging but instead it is observation.

As a Catholic you have been in more Catholic churches than I have been in. But all the things I have posted are from what I have seen and observed and the in-countable conversations I have had over the years with Catholic friends of which I have many.

When the Bible says in Ex. 20:4-5..............
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me."

Now when I read that, and then see with my two eyes that take place in front of me, it is no longer a judgment at all.

Listen my brother, if you are comfortable in your thinking and If that is what you choose to believe, then go in peace and may the Lord bless you.
 
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Goatee

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I am sorry my friend but the answer is yes.

For many reasons.

#1....God said that in Exodus 20:4-5..............
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me".

My dear friend......I did not write those words. You say....."For the sake of God" and in my opinion that is exactly why He said to NOT DO IT.

Again.....I did not say it. I did not produce it. I was not asked for any input at all.

All I have done is post the words that GOD SAID so actually your problem is with Him and not me in any way.

Then there is the problem of recognition. There are NO PAINTINGS of Jesus , or Mary or anyone else. Those that you see today are all produced out of the imaginations of painters who lived approx. 1500 years after the death of all those Bible individuals.
The reality of life is that New Testament Gospels contain no reference to Jesus’ and Mary's appearance, much less a description of them. We don’t know what they looked like so how in the world can anyone really know who they are bowing down to.

We do know what Jesus and Mary looked like though.

Man was made in the image of God. So, any representation of Jesus, be it white, black, yellow or whatever, it does not matter. We are all made in the image of God.

Now, God didn't want anyone to make a graven image of anything above or below as he very well knew that in those days people would worship anything at all. God knew that those people worshiped false beings, gods.

Today, Christians know There is but one God. God knows how we think. If we have a crucifix on the wall God can see that we are indeed looking at it in remembrance of Our Lord Jesus Christ, not some unknown, false being!

Major1

You must remember that God knows what is in our prayers and Hearts. Do you really think that God believes that we are worshiping a piece of wood or a statue etc? Please, give God credit for knowing those that follow Him!!!

Don't get yourself stuck in 'literal' things and try to remember that today, we are people who know God a lot more than those in ancient times. People have come a long way since the time of Moses. God can see the massive love for him there is in His Church.

I believe that you are 'trapped' by your 'sometimes' literal reading of scripture. This is where I am proud to be Catholic as in the CC the Holy Spirit has revealed even more wonders and truths.

Like I said before, the Apostles knew a heck of a lot more than what is written in the Gospels!

Jesus taught them so much more, as John said.

Many of these, I believe, have been revealed to humanity from the Apostles, through the early church fathers to modern day.

The real Bible, real scripture is a living, breathing church. It is not just collection of books that were put together all those years ago by the Catholic Church. No. Scripture is alive today as it was when Jesus taught the Apostles.
 
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Major1

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We do know what Jesus and Mary looked like though.

Man was made in the image of God. So, any representation of Jesus, be it white, black, yellow or whatever, it does not matter. We are all made in the image of God.

Now, God didn't want anyone to make a graven image of anything above or below as he very well knew that in those days people would worship anything at all. God knew that those people worshiped false beings, gods.

Today, Christians know There is but one God. God knows how we think. If we have a crucifix on the wall God can see that we are indeed looking at it in remembrance of Our Lord Jesus Christ, not some unknown, false being!

Major1

You must remember that God knows what is in our prayers and Hearts. Do you really think that God believes that we are worshiping a piece of wood or a statue etc? Please, give God credit for knowing those that follow Him!!!

Don't get yourself stuck in 'literal' things and try to remember that today, we are people who know God a lot more than those in ancient times. People have come a long way since the time of Moses. God can see the massive love for him there is in His Church.

I believe that you are 'trapped' by your 'sometimes' literal reading of scripture. This is where I am proud to be Catholic as in the CC the Holy Spirit has revealed even more wonders and truths.

Like I said before, the Apostles knew a heck of a lot more than what is written in the Gospels!

Jesus taught them so much more, as John said.

Many of these, I believe, have been revealed to humanity from the Apostles, through the early church fathers to modern day.

The real Bible, real scripture is a living, breathing church. It is not just collection of books that were put together all those years ago by the Catholic Church. No. Scripture is alive today as it was when Jesus taught the Apostles.

Now I believe that you know very well that all men being created in God's image does not mean that we all look like God or that God looks like us.

That would be the worst of any interpretation that could be made. But let's not make this an argument and instead allow the Bible to speak to us.

God is a spirit John 4:24, and so His appearance is not like anything we can describe.

Exodus 33:20 tells us,.......
“You cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

As sinful human beings, we are incapable of seeing God in all His glory. His appearance is utterly unimaginable and too glorious to be safely perceived by sinful man. We are created in the image of God in that we The image of God (Latin: imago dei) refers to the immaterial part of humanity. It sets human beings apart from the animal world, fits them for the dominion God intended them to have over the earth Genesis 1:28, and enables them to commune with their Maker. It is a likeness mentally, morally, and socially.

Mentally, humanity was created as a rational, volitional agent. In other words, human beings can reason and choose. This is a reflection of God’s intellect and freedom.

The problem my friend with your argument that God know who follows Him is not the point at all.
It is that MAN will not have the ability to know who he is worshipping.

Part of being made in God’s image is that Adam had the capacity to make free choices. Although they were given a righteous nature, Adam and Eve made an evil choice to rebel against their Creator. In so doing, they marred the image of God within themselves, and passed that damaged likeness on to all of their descendants (Romans 5:12). Today, we still bear the image of God (James 3:9), but we also bear the scars of sin. Mentally, morally, socially, and physically, we show the effects of sin and THAT IS WHY WE MUST BE BORN AGAIN.
 
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Goatee

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Well Major1 my friend in Christ, it's good to debate with you. Obviously we could go round in circles forever (until you see the truth! Lol).

I hope that one day you will see the truth that is the Catholic Church.

God bless you
 
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kepha31

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I am sorry my friend but the answer is yes.

I find it very interesting that you would say...............
"I've never seen a Catholic "bow down" to wood, marble or plaster."

All these years in A Catholic church and YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN A CATHOLI BOW DOWN TO WOOD MARBLE OR PLASTER.

That to me is astonishing!!!! I have been in several Catholic churches over my years. I have been to funerals, and gatherings and just attending with friends and neighbors and EVRY SINGLE time I see the people approach the statues of Jesus, Mary and Joseph, stop bow down to one knew and cross themselves.
Because it's your blind prejudice that says statues are worshiped. The sign of the cross is an acknowledgement of the Trinity, among other things. It does not mean a statue is worshiped. Stopping at a statue to give respect or veneration to the person in heaven is what is going on here. You call it worship because you have been trained to think that all your life. If you want to accuse me of worshiping Jesus THROUGH an image of Him, that's fine.

Isn't it amazing that you have never seen that at all?????????
No, I've never seen a statue worshiped according to your false definition.

#1....God said that in Exodus 20:4-5..............
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
Statues are not served, that's ridiculous.

My dear friend......I did not write those words. You say....."For the sake of God" and in my opinion that is exactly why He said to NOT DO IT.
He said not to worship hand made objects. He did not ban ALL images. For the millionth time, statues are not worshiped, and God COMMANDED the use of images in the Temple. They were not worshiped either. According to your iconoclasm, God was wrong.
Again.....I did not say it. I did not produce it. I was not asked for any input at all.

All I have done is post the words that GOD SAID so actually your problem is with Him and not me in any way.
Your problem is ignoring Scripture where God commanded the use of images in the Temple.

Then there is the problem of recognition. There are NO PAINTINGS of Jesus , or Mary or anyone else. Those that you see today are all produced out of the imaginations of painters who lived approx. 1500 years after the death of all those Bible individuals.

The reality of life is that New Testament Gospels contain no reference to Jesus’ and Mary's appearance, much less a description of them. We don’t know what they looked like so how in the world can anyone really know who they are bowing down to.
Nobody is bowing down in a manner of worship to any painting or statue, that's your blind prejudice talking and it has nothing to do with the facts. What Jesus and Mary actually looked like is irrelevant to an artistic depiction, and true details is not what the Bible is for.
The paintings and statues are out of someone's imagination.
So what. God gave us imaginations and He expects us to use it. Everyone uses their imagination to stir up mental images when hymns are sung, so according to you, your brain becomes an idol and should be banned.
Those that you see today are all produced out of the imaginations of painters who lived approx. 1500 years after the death of all those Bible individuals.

The oldest painting of Jesus on His mothers lap, in the Roman Catacombs, where Catholics would hide from Roman persecution, 150 AD.

catacomb_of_priscilla.jpg

But you have nothing to do with the Church of 150 AD.​
 
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Goatee

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Because it's your blind prejudice that says statues are worshiped. The sign of the cross is an acknowledgement of the Trinity, among other things. It does not mean a statue is worshiped.

Statues are not served, that's ridiculous.

He said not to worship hand made objects. For the millionth time, statues are not worshiped, and God COMMANDED the use of images in the Temple. They were not worshiped either. According to your iconoclasm, God was wrong.
Nobody is bowing down in a manner of worship to any painting or statue, that's your blind prejudice talking and it has nothing to do with the facts. What Jesus and Mary actually looked like is irrelevant to an artistic depiction, and true details is not what the Bible is for.
So what. God gave us imaginations and He expects us to use it.


The oldest painting of Jesus on His mothers lap, in the Roman Catacombs, where Catholics would hide from Roman persecution, 150 AD.

catacomb_of_priscilla.jpg

But you have nothing to do with the Church of 150 AD.​

Once again, good, truthful answers.

Major1 is indeed very much stuck with his false views of Catholicism. He keeps being shown the truth but refuses to accept it.
 
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paul becke

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Really?

It was evident that if Satan aided Jesus in casting out devils, the kingdom of hell was divided against itself; how then could it stand! And if they said that Jesus cast out devils by the prince of the devils, they could not prove that their children cast them out by any other power.

“Therefore they shall be your judges”: - They condemn you and your argument. They are conclusive witnesses against the force of your reasoning.

Christ was not satisfied by showing them the intrinsic absurdity of their argument. He showed them that it might as well be applied to them as to him. Your disciples taught by you and encouraged by you, pretend to cast out devils.

If your argument be true that a man who casts out devils must be in league with the devil, then "your disciples", and you who taught them, have made a covenant with him also. You must therefore either give up this argument, or admit that the working of miracles is proof of the assistance of God.

I've always thought it likely that they had not been able to cast out demons, themselves, at all - at least for a very long time. It would have been very much in line with Jesus' frequently sarcastic ripostes to those who tried to trip him up, and in the end, killed him.

The Synagogue had been degenerating for quite a long time, hadn't it ?
 
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paul becke

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Because it's your blind prejudice that says statues are worshiped. The sign of the cross is an acknowledgement of the Trinity, among other things. It does not mean a statue is worshiped. Stopping at a statue to give respect or veneration to the person in heaven is what is going on here. You call it worship because you have been trained to think that all your life. If you want to accuse me of worshiping Jesus THROUGH an image of Him, that's fine.

No, I've never seen a statue worshiped according to your false definition.

Statues are not served, that's ridiculous.


He said not to worship hand made objects. He did not ban ALL images. For the millionth time, statues are not worshiped, and God COMMANDED the use of images in the Temple. They were not worshiped either. According to your iconoclasm, God was wrong.
Your problem is ignoring Scripture where God commanded the use of images in the Temple.

Then there is the problem of recognition. There are NO PAINTINGS of Jesus , or Mary or anyone else. Those that you see today are all produced out of the imaginations of painters who lived approx. 1500 years after the death of all those Bible individuals.

The reality of life is that New Testament Gospels contain no reference to Jesus’ and Mary's appearance, much less a description of them. We don’t know what they looked like so how in the world can anyone really know who they are bowing down to.
Nobody is bowing down in a manner of worship to any painting or statue, that's your blind prejudice talking and it has nothing to do with the facts. What Jesus and Mary actually looked like is irrelevant to an artistic depiction, and true details is not what the Bible is for.
So what. God gave us imaginations and He expects us to use it. Everyone uses their imagination to stir up mental images when hymns are sung, so according to you, your brain becomes an idol and should be banned.


The oldest painting of Jesus on His mothers lap, in the Roman Catacombs, where Catholics would hide from Roman persecution, 150 AD.

catacomb_of_priscilla.jpg

But you have nothing to do with the Church of 150 AD.​
[/QUOTE]

Is the Star-Spangled Banner a hymn honouring and or serving via its symbolism) a nation ? Or is the flag an idol ? Obviously, an idol to some of our separated brethren.
 
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Major1

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I've always thought it likely that they had not been able to cast out demons, themselves, at all - at least for a very long time. It would have been very much in line with Jesus' frequently sarcastic ripostes to those who tried to trip him up, and in the end, killed him.

The Synagogue had been degenerating for quite a long time, hadn't it ?

I can understand your thinking on that. The Jewish worship had degenerated into Phariseeism.
 
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Major1

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Once again, good, truthful answers.

Major1 is indeed very much stuck with his false views of Catholicism. He keeps being shown the truth but refuses to accept it.

Isn't it funny that we always think the truth comes from those we agree with.

Yes I am and will always be stuck in the truth of God's Word.

Ex, 20:4-5..........
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me".

You can make up an excuse you want to believe. I am going to stick with the original.
 
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Major1

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Because it's your blind prejudice that says statues are worshiped. The sign of the cross is an acknowledgement of the Trinity, among other things. It does not mean a statue is worshiped. Stopping at a statue to give respect or veneration to the person in heaven is what is going on here. You call it worship because you have been trained to think that all your life. If you want to accuse me of worshiping Jesus THROUGH an image of Him, that's fine.

No, I've never seen a statue worshiped according to your false definition.

Statues are not served, that's ridiculous.


He said not to worship hand made objects. He did not ban ALL images. For the millionth time, statues are not worshiped, and God COMMANDED the use of images in the Temple. They were not worshiped either. According to your iconoclasm, God was wrong.
Your problem is ignoring Scripture where God commanded the use of images in the Temple.

Then there is the problem of recognition. There are NO PAINTINGS of Jesus , or Mary or anyone else. Those that you see today are all produced out of the imaginations of painters who lived approx. 1500 years after the death of all those Bible individuals.

The reality of life is that New Testament Gospels contain no reference to Jesus’ and Mary's appearance, much less a description of them. We don’t know what they looked like so how in the world can anyone really know who they are bowing down to.
Nobody is bowing down in a manner of worship to any painting or statue, that's your blind prejudice talking and it has nothing to do with the facts. What Jesus and Mary actually looked like is irrelevant to an artistic depiction, and true details is not what the Bible is for.
So what. God gave us imaginations and He expects us to use it. Everyone uses their imagination to stir up mental images when hymns are sung, so according to you, your brain becomes an idol and should be banned.


The oldest painting of Jesus on His mothers lap, in the Roman Catacombs, where Catholics would hide from Roman persecution, 150 AD.

catacomb_of_priscilla.jpg

But you have nothing to do with the Church of 150 AD.​
[/QUOTE]

You said...........
"So what. God gave us imaginations and He expects us to use it. Everyone uses their imagination to stir up mental images when hymns are sung, so according to you, your brain becomes an idol and should be banned."

NO, everyone does not stir up mental images when a hymn is sung. That is your personal opinion.

What you are saying actually confirms the Scripture given by Paul in 2 Corth. 11:14....
“Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light”.

In other words, sometimes Satan puts on a disguise (as it were), and makes it look like he actually stands for good instead of evil. When the devil offered to feed Jesus by turning rocks into bread, he was masquerading as one who wanted to do good–or as an angel of light (see Matthew 4:1-11).

But Satan is not an angel of good or of light; he is the opposite. Jesus said that Satan “was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies” (John 8:44). Satan will try to deceive us and make us think that his way is best–but it never is. Martin Luther rightly labeled him “the prince of darkness.” Don’t fall for his lies!
 
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Major1

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Well Major1 my friend in Christ, it's good to debate with you. Obviously we could go round in circles forever (until you see the truth! Lol).

I hope that one day you will see the truth that is the Catholic Church.

God bless you

Same here. I pray the Lord will bless you and keep you healthy.
 
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kepha31

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What is the difference between “creator” and “craftsman”? The one who creates bestows being itself, he brings something out of nothing—ex nihilo sui et subiecti, as the Latin puts it—and this, in the strict sense, is a mode of operation which belongs to the Almighty alone.
The craftsman, by contrast, uses something that already exists, to which he gives form and meaning. This is the mode of operation peculiar to man as made in the image of God. In fact, after saying that God created man and woman “in his image” (cf. Gn1:27), the Bible adds that he entrusted to them the task of dominating the earth (cf. Gn 1:28). This was the last day of creation (cf. Gn 1:28-31). On the previous days, marking as it were the rhythm of the birth of the cosmos, Yahweh had created the universe. Finally he created the human being, the noblest fruit of his design, to whom he subjected the visible world as a vast field in which human inventiveness might assert itself.

God therefore called man into existence, committing to him the craftsman's task. Through his “artistic creativity” man appears more than ever “in the image of God”, and he accomplishes this task above all in shaping the wondrous “material” of his own humanity and then exercising creative dominion over the universe which surrounds him. With loving regard, the divine Artist passes on to the human artist a spark of his own surpassing wisdom, calling him to share in his creative power. Obviously, this is a sharing which leaves intact the infinite distance between the Creator and the creature, as Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa made clear: “Creative art, which it is the soul's good fortune to entertain, is not to be identified with that essential art which is God himself, but is only a communication of it and a share in it”.(1)

That is why artists, the more conscious they are of their “gift”, are led all the more to see themselves and the whole of creation with eyes able to contemplate and give thanks, and to raise to God a hymn of praise. This is the only way for them to come to a full understanding of themselves, their vocation and their mission.

The special vocation of the artist

2. Not all are called to be artists in the specific sense of the term. Yet, as Genesis has it, all men and women are entrusted with the task of crafting their own life: in a certain sense, they are to make of it a work of art, a masterpiece.

It is important to recognize the distinction, but also the connection, between these two aspects of human activity. The distinction is clear. It is one thing for human beings to be the authors of their own acts, with responsibility for their moral value; it is another to be an artist, able, that is, to respond to the demands of art and faithfully to accept art's specific dictates.(2) This is what makes the artist capable of producing objects, but it says nothing as yet of his moral character. We are speaking not of moulding oneself, of forming one's own personality, but simply of actualizing one's productive capacities, giving aesthetic form to ideas conceived in the mind.

The distinction between the moral and artistic aspects is fundamental, but no less important is the connection between them. Each conditions the other in a profound way. In producing a work, artists express themselves to the point where their work becomes a unique disclosure of their own being, of what they are and of how they are what they are. And there are endless examples of this in human history.

In shaping a masterpiece, the artist not only summons his work into being, but also in some way reveals his own personality by means of it. For him art offers both a new dimension and an exceptional mode of expression for his spiritual growth. Through his works, the artist speaks to others and communicates with them. The history of art, therefore, is not only a story of works produced but also a story of men and women. Works of art speak of their authors; they enable us to know their inner life, and they reveal the original contribution which artists offer to the history of culture...

...Here we touch on an essential point. Those who perceive in themselves this kind of divine spark which is the artistic vocation—as poet, writer, sculptor, architect, musician, actor and so on—feel at the same time the obligation not to waste this talent but to develop it, in order to put it at the service of their neighbour and of humanity as a whole.

The artist and the common good

4. Society needs artists, just as it needs scientists, technicians, workers, professional people, witnesses of the faith, teachers, fathers and mothers, who ensure the growth of the person and the development of the community by means of that supreme art form which is “the art of education”. Within the vast cultural panorama of each nation, artists have their unique place. Obedient to their inspiration in creating works both worthwhile and beautiful, they not only enrich the cultural heritage of each nation and of all humanity, but they also render an exceptional social service in favour of the common good.
Letter to Artists, (April 4, 1999) | John Paul II
 
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Major1

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We do know what Jesus and Mary looked like though.

Man was made in the image of God. So, any representation of Jesus, be it white, black, yellow or whatever, it does not matter. We are all made in the image of God.

Now, God didn't want anyone to make a graven image of anything above or below as he very well knew that in those days people would worship anything at all. God knew that those people worshiped false beings, gods.

Today, Christians know There is but one God. God knows how we think. If we have a crucifix on the wall God can see that we are indeed looking at it in remembrance of Our Lord Jesus Christ, not some unknown, false being!

Major1

You must remember that God knows what is in our prayers and Hearts. Do you really think that God believes that we are worshiping a piece of wood or a statue etc? Please, give God credit for knowing those that follow Him!!!

Don't get yourself stuck in 'literal' things and try to remember that today, we are people who know God a lot more than those in ancient times. People have come a long way since the time of Moses. God can see the massive love for him there is in His Church.

I believe that you are 'trapped' by your 'sometimes' literal reading of scripture. This is where I am proud to be Catholic as in the CC the Holy Spirit has revealed even more wonders and truths.

Like I said before, the Apostles knew a heck of a lot more than what is written in the Gospels!

Jesus taught them so much more, as John said.

Many of these, I believe, have been revealed to humanity from the Apostles, through the early church fathers to modern day.

The real Bible, real scripture is a living, breathing church. It is not just collection of books that were put together all those years ago by the Catholic Church. No. Scripture is alive today as it was when Jesus taught the Apostles.

You said..........
"You must remember that God knows what is in our prayers and Hearts. Do you really think that God believes that we are worshiping a piece of wood or a statue etc? Please, give God credit for knowing those that follow Him!!!"

That is not the point at all. The point is, the problem is what MEN think when they bow down to a statue of Mary.

Can you not at least see how the bowing down to a graven statue opens the door of men to place their faith in an object instead of the Lord Jesus. Surely you can see that. I can understand how you would be reluctant to admit it but it seems to me that it would be impossible you not to see how the door of opened to Satan.

You know, the Scripture in Exodus 20 is not optional. It was not given so that in 2017 so that we could give excuses and explinations and break that Bible commandment from God.
 
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Major1

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What is the difference between “creator” and “craftsman”? The one who creates bestows being itself, he brings something out of nothing—ex nihilo sui et subiecti, as the Latin puts it—and this, in the strict sense, is a mode of operation which belongs to the Almighty alone.
The craftsman, by contrast, uses something that already exists, to which he gives form and meaning. This is the mode of operation peculiar to man as made in the image of God. In fact, after saying that God created man and woman “in his image” (cf. Gn1:27), the Bible adds that he entrusted to them the task of dominating the earth (cf. Gn 1:28). This was the last day of creation (cf. Gn 1:28-31). On the previous days, marking as it were the rhythm of the birth of the cosmos, Yahweh had created the universe. Finally he created the human being, the noblest fruit of his design, to whom he subjected the visible world as a vast field in which human inventiveness might assert itself.

God therefore called man into existence, committing to him the craftsman's task. Through his “artistic creativity” man appears more than ever “in the image of God”, and he accomplishes this task above all in shaping the wondrous “material” of his own humanity and then exercising creative dominion over the universe which surrounds him. With loving regard, the divine Artist passes on to the human artist a spark of his own surpassing wisdom, calling him to share in his creative power. Obviously, this is a sharing which leaves intact the infinite distance between the Creator and the creature, as Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa made clear: “Creative art, which it is the soul's good fortune to entertain, is not to be identified with that essential art which is God himself, but is only a communication of it and a share in it”.(1)

That is why artists, the more conscious they are of their “gift”, are led all the more to see themselves and the whole of creation with eyes able to contemplate and give thanks, and to raise to God a hymn of praise. This is the only way for them to come to a full understanding of themselves, their vocation and their mission.

The special vocation of the artist

2. Not all are called to be artists in the specific sense of the term. Yet, as Genesis has it, all men and women are entrusted with the task of crafting their own life: in a certain sense, they are to make of it a work of art, a masterpiece.

It is important to recognize the distinction, but also the connection, between these two aspects of human activity. The distinction is clear. It is one thing for human beings to be the authors of their own acts, with responsibility for their moral value; it is another to be an artist, able, that is, to respond to the demands of art and faithfully to accept art's specific dictates.(2) This is what makes the artist capable of producing objects, but it says nothing as yet of his moral character. We are speaking not of moulding oneself, of forming one's own personality, but simply of actualizing one's productive capacities, giving aesthetic form to ideas conceived in the mind.

The distinction between the moral and artistic aspects is fundamental, but no less important is the connection between them. Each conditions the other in a profound way. In producing a work, artists express themselves to the point where their work becomes a unique disclosure of their own being, of what they are and of how they are what they are. And there are endless examples of this in human history.

In shaping a masterpiece, the artist not only summons his work into being, but also in some way reveals his own personality by means of it. For him art offers both a new dimension and an exceptional mode of expression for his spiritual growth. Through his works, the artist speaks to others and communicates with them. The history of art, therefore, is not only a story of works produced but also a story of men and women. Works of art speak of their authors; they enable us to know their inner life, and they reveal the original contribution which artists offer to the history of culture...

...Here we touch on an essential point. Those who perceive in themselves this kind of divine spark which is the artistic vocation—as poet, writer, sculptor, architect, musician, actor and so on—feel at the same time the obligation not to waste this talent but to develop it, in order to put it at the service of their neighbour and of humanity as a whole.

The artist and the common good

4. Society needs artists, just as it needs scientists, technicians, workers, professional people, witnesses of the faith, teachers, fathers and mothers, who ensure the growth of the person and the development of the community by means of that supreme art form which is “the art of education”. Within the vast cultural panorama of each nation, artists have their unique place. Obedient to their inspiration in creating works both worthwhile and beautiful, they not only enrich the cultural heritage of each nation and of all humanity, but they also render an exceptional social service in favour of the common good.
Letter to Artists, (April 4, 1999) | John Paul II

Copied and pasted from https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2016/02/22/creator-or-craftsman/

I would rather read your thoughts and opinions instead of another Catholic web site my friend. I would say to you that the web site you used is "Copyright" protected and you are breaking the law and the rules of this web site.

But I am sure that there is an acceptable reason or excuse that makes that OK for you.

"Creator" is God.

"Craftsman" is a brand of tools you can buy at Sears and Ace hardware.

I am amazed at how hard you are working to verify your choice breaking the Law of God. If you feel that strongly about continuing the sin of bowing down to graven images....DO IT!!!!

You do not have to keep on explaining to me why you do it because I do not care. IT IS YOUR CHOICE.

If you feel better telling yourself that society needs more artists and so on go ahead and continue your practice of know sin.

If you worked this hard in Bible study over the years, I can promise you that we would not be having this conversation.
 
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kepha31

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Isn't it funny that we always think the truth comes from those we agree with.

Yes I am and will always be stuck in the truth of God's Word.

Ex, 20:4-5..........
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me".

You can make up an excuse you want to believe. I am going to stick with the original.
No, you don't stick with the original. God forbids the worship of carved images, that you can't read. Nowhere in scripture does God forbid ALL images, or there would never be a bronze serpent, or numerous images in the Temple. You are asserting a type of Gnosticism.
Now, end this discussion and find a verse where God forbids the use of ALL images for Christian purposes.
All you have offered so far to support your contention is baseless mis-perceptions, a stubborn refusal to accept a biblical definition, and a distortion of Exodus 20.
 
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Copied and pasted from https://www.thecatholicthing.org/2016/02/22/creator-or-craftsman/
I would rather read your thoughts and opinions instead of another Catholic web site my friend. I would say to you that the web site you used is "Copyright" protected and you are breaking the law and the rules of this web site.
No, I provided the link to the full article from the Vatican site, so I am not violating anything.
Letter to Artists, (April 4, 1999) | John Paul II
So your accusation is as phony as your false idolatry charge.
But I am sure that there is an acceptable reason or excuse that makes that OK for you.
"Creator" is God.
You can read that much so there is hope.
"Craftsman" is a brand of tools you can buy at Sears and Ace hardware.
Craftsman refers to people.
I am amazed at how hard you are working to verify your choice breaking the Law of God. If you feel that strongly about continuing the sin of bowing down to graven images....DO IT!!!!
Where in the Pope's letter to artists does he command Catholics to worship any kind of image?
You do not have to keep on explaining to me why you do it because I do not care. IT IS YOUR CHOICE.
If you feel better telling yourself that society needs more artists and so on go ahead and continue your practice of know sin.
Do you have any T shirts with designs or graphics on them or are they all plain solid colors?
If you worked this hard in Bible study over the years, I can promise you that we would not be having this conversation.
Refuting radical iconoclasm is a piece of cake. All you have to stand on is false perceptions, a refusal to accept biblical definitions, and a distortion of Exodus 20.
 
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Really ???? I only quoted that one because it is the most know and most used but it certainly is not the only one in the Scriptures. Allow me to give you more that compare and support the way a man gets saved..............

Luke 12:8............
“And I tell you, everyone who acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man also will acknowledge before the angels of God".

Philippians 2:11..............
"and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Acts 16:31 ..................
"And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Matt. 10:32-33 .............
"So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven."

Now if that is not enough, let me know and I can post many more for you.

The thing is, though, is that all of these passages exist in the same Bible--and even in the same books of the Bible--that speak of Baptism. Acts 2:38 says, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.", in Matthew 28 Jesus commissions His Church to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit and instructing them on all that I have taught", in Galatians 3:27 St. Paul writes, "All of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ", in Romans 6 Paul writes, "All of us who were baptized into Christ were baptized into His death" and that we have been "buried with Him in baptism". In 1 Peter 3:21 it says, "this [the water of the deluge] prefigures baptism which now saves you, not by cleaning dirt off the body, but by the pledge of a new conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ", in Ephesians 5:26 St. Paul writes, that Jesus has washed His bride, "by the washing of water by the word" and in Titus 3:5 says "it is not by works of righteousness that we have been saved, but by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" and in John 3:5 concerning the new birth our Lord Himself teaches that the new birth is being "born of water and the Spirit".

Further, salvation comes because we are justified by grace through faith, as the Apostle writes, "For by one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by one Man's obedience the many were justified." That it is by the righteousness of Christ that we are righteous, and this is by grace through faith; and from whence comes faith? "It is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8) and also "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ" (Romans 10:17).

Nobody can call on the name of the Lord unless they have received the word. It is impossible without faith, and faith comes not by human effort but rather by the gift of God, given to us by the word; the same word by which we are washed in baptism (again, "the washing of water by the word"). It is not by human effort that we by our own power, strength, and/or will can call on God to save us; it is on account of the faith given to us by God graciously through the Means He has instituted: "baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit and teaching them all I have said", "go out into the world and preach the Gospel to every living creature", "that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem"; "repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit", "All of us who were baptized into Christ have died with Christ ... buried with Him ... that we might walk in newness of life", "all of you baptized into Christ have put on Christ", "the word comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ", "all who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved", "for it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith, and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works lest any should boast", "May I boast in nothing except the cross of Jesus Christ", "while we were still yet sinners Christ died for us", "Not by works of righteousness were you saved, but by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit."

And so on and so forth.

We have from the Lord the Means by which we go out into the world, through which God appropriates the work of Christ, for this reason we preach and we baptized, to make disciples, that the Holy Spirit brings them in and makes them part of the one Body of Christ ("For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit."), having been born from above by the power of the Spirit, sealed with the Spirit, having received the Spirit by the promises of God which are given in Christ, again: "baptized...receive the Holy Spirit", and "born of water and the Spirit", and "washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit".

Our salvation does not come by us doing the right things, thinking the right things, or believing the right things. Our salvation is achieved by the death and resurrection of Jesus, which is ours by the grace of God, granted to us by faith, given to us by the Means Christ Himself gave His Church, namely Word and Sacrament.

Nobody comes to God by their own power.
Nobody comes to God apart from the working of the Holy Spirit through the Means of God's grace.
God makes this happen, by His own gracious working through the Means instituted by Christ for the Church.

You would not believe unless God had given you faith which He did through the Means He instituted for His Church--unless it had been declared to you that Christ had died for your sins, and God raised Him up from the dead, and that you are forgiven all your sins you would know nothing of Christ, and would not and could not confess Him as your Lord and Savior. For no one can say "Jesus Christ is Lord except by the Holy Spirit". Unless God granted to you faith by which to confess and trust upon Him, it could not be done, and He did this through the Means of Word and Sacrament. A person can believe they did it, they can think that they by their own initiative sought God out, but they did not, "For there is none who seeks God, no not one", for "the heart is wicked and desperately sick, who can understand it?" You, a degenerate and wretch of a sinner--like me, like everyone else--has hope solely on the grace of God in Jesus Christ, and He saved you by this very grace He has for you in Jesus--He did this without your permission, He did this without your consent, He did this because He loves you and desires to save you and to save the whole world--and for this very reason He established a Church, and told her to preach, to baptize, to be the instrument through which the Mystery of Salvation is communicated and distributed to all nations and that He Himself works through this for the salvation of the world.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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