Catholics, what exactly do you believe about Mary?

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PeaceB

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I will show you Bible for every doctrine I hold and practice, can you do the same, or are you dependent on extra biblical even anti-biblical traditions to hold up your faith?
OK. Let's start with this. You believe that the Letter to the Hebrews is the inspired word of God. Please show me a chapter and verse that states that the Letter to the Hebrews is the inspired word of God.
 
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Vicomte13

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You say I am limited by scripture, I would counter that I am fulfilled in scripture! You say the word of God had to change to fit these different cultures and peoples that it would encounter beyond the middle east, .

No, I say that God gave the rule, and made it clear that all food, including blood, is licit. It wasn't for the Jews. Jesus made it so, but the Apostles reversed that at the Council of Jerusalem, for a time, as was their authority as the leaders of the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit - so, God made a rule for that time, in that place, among those Jewish Christians, who could not abide the eating of blood.

But then the Church expanded and ceased to be Jewish, and in those later times, God once again - through the Holy Spirit - made the rule that all food is indeed licit, including blood sausage.

It's always God making the rules, and changing them as he sees fit. He did it through the Patriarchs, through the Apostles, and today through the Church, all in one continuum. What does NOT change is that God is God. Practices change here and there, as God sees fit to change them.

If you want to treat the Bible as the only source of revelation and law, nobody will stop you. But you came onto a thread that asked Catholics what we think of Mary, that then branched into what Catholics think of everything. We've told you what we think of the Church, the Bible, Mary, and much more.

You don't LIKE it, and that's fine. We don't like how you look at Scripture either. But it makes no difference. You do it your way, we'll do it ours, and God will let us know in the end who was right, won't he?
 
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kepha31

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You are right Jesus did set up a single church - but you are convinced that church is the Catholic one - I am asking you if that is indeed the case then how is the Catholic church of today so far removed from the church Jesus started?

It is not sufficient to say I do wrong because... you do wrong too. For you to answer my claims of where Catholic teachings differ from scripture with accusations of things that I do not believe that are in scripture is not an arguement at all. Especially when you do not know me, or what I believe.

I will show you Bible for every doctrine I hold and practice, can you do the same, or are you dependent on extra biblical even anti-biblical traditions to hold up your faith?
The Catholic Church defines doctrinal development as a growth of depth and clarity in the understanding of the truths of divine revelation. It is important to understand that the substantial or essential truths at the core of each doctrine (as part of the one apostolic deposit, given from Christ to the apostles) remain unchanged. The Catholic Church preserves this deposit, and is the Guardian of it. Only the subjective grasp of men increases, without the actual doctrine or dogma changing in an essential way. This is the main distinction to keep in mind when considering development.

Doctrine clearly develops within Scripture itself (“progressive revelation”).

Some examples would be: doctrines of the afterlife, the Trinity, the Messiah (eventually revealed as God the Son), the Holy Spirit (a Divine Person in the New Testament), the equality of Jews and Gentiles, bodily resurrection, sacrifice of lambs evolving into the sacrifice of Christ, and so forth. Not a single doctrine emerges in the Bible complete with no further need of development.

The canon of Scripture itself is an example of developing doctrine.

In general, whenever Holy Scripture refers to the increasing knowledge and maturity of Christians and the Church, an idea very similar to doctrinal development is present. Holy Scripture, then, is in no way hostile to development.
The Church is called the “Body” of Christ often (e.g., Eph 1:22-3), and is compared to a seed that grows into a tree (Mt 13:31-2). Seeds and bodies grow and expand. Yet Protestants tend to see Church and doctrine as more like a statue, subject to pigeon droppings (i.e., so-called Catholic “corruptions”!). This robs the metaphors of Christ of their essential meaning.
Indeed, there is a lot of Scripture that would indicate the Trinity and Christology (Jesus as God), but if one doesn’t attempt to put the verses together in a certain systematic way, it wouldn’t jump right out from Scripture. So for that reason the Church had to develop it — and usually in response to heretics.
Doctrines agreed upon by all develop, too.
  • The Divinity or Godhood of Christ was only finalized in 325 at the Council of Nicaea,
  • and the full doctrine of the Trinity in 381 at the Council of Constantinople.
  • The dogma of the Two Natures of Christ (God and Man) was proclaimed in 451 at the Council of Chalcedon.
These decisions of General Councils of the Church were in response to challenging heresies. Why should Protestants accept these authoritative verdicts, but reject similar proclamations on Church government, the Eucharist, Mary, Purgatory, etc.?

Although understanding increases, the essential elements of doctrines exist from the beginning. Today’s Church shouldn’t be expected to look like the primitive Church if it is a living, vibrant, spiritual organism. But even the early Church looks like a small “Catholic tree.” It doesn’t look like a Protestant “statue,” increasingly corrupted by an encroaching Catholicism, as one common viewpoint would have it.

The idea of doctrinal development is a key, in any case, for understanding why the Catholic Church often appears on the surface as fundamentally different than the early Church. Thoughtful Protestants owe it to themselves and intellectual honesty to ponder this indispensable notion before criticizing the allegedly “unbiblical excesses” of Catholicism.

The theology of Christ, or Christology, continued to develop for hundreds of years after Christianity began. Virtually all Christians are agreed on this aspect of theology: the nature of Christ and the Trinity. But many aspects of these doctrines were developments, not explicitly found in the Bible.

So, for example, the heretical Nestorians came around and claimed that Jesus was two persons: human and divine. The Church said “no, that’s not true. He is one Person, the God-Man.” The Nestorians speculated falsely about the nature of Mary, but the Church pronounced on the doctrine of Mary, against the Nestorians, giving her the title of Theotokos, which means “God-bearer,” or “Mother of God.” That occurred at the Council of Ephesus in 431. We often find, then, in Church history, heretics coming along and making a new claim. The Church reflects upon it, and rules against it.

The standard Protestant notion of its own origins and place in Church history is that the “Reformers” (in accordance with their very self-proclaimed title) restored what had been lost; what was originally the state of affairs in the early Church. But this itself is a myth: demonstrably false, since the early Church does not resemble Protestantism much at all, the early Church looks far more like a small “Catholic tree” (e.g., episcopacy, Real Presence, baptismal regeneration, purgatory, priesthood, conciliarism, apostolic succession, penance, prayers for the dead, Mary as the New Eve and perpetual virgin, etc.).

Today’s Church shouldn’t be expected to look like the primitive Church if it is a living, vibrant, spiritual organism.



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Albion

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As I stated before, the only point I am trying to get across:

If this priest wants to marry after having taken that vow he is faced with remaining celibate and a priest or leaving the priesthood and becoming a husband - right?
That's true.

This is not what Paul instructed. All of this marriage or not marriage was brought up simply to illustrate where the Catholic Church has gone beyond the instruction of Peter and the Apostles (including Paul).
Understood.

Whether you call it doctrine, tradition, best practice, or rule - his marriage occurring after being a priest and taking his vow - would strip him of his priestly office. While Paul allowed for married priests, leaders, and even Bishops.

Marry, don't marry, I do not care, but you cannot say that this Catholic teaching, preference, rule, tradition, whatever else is lined up and in accordance with scripture.
In my earlier posts, I allowed all that you've said here; but I also pointed out that there doesn't seem to be any church that has kept or does keep the "ways" of the first Christian churches to the letter.

Since this really is your point, not just that you don't approve of the Catholic Church's policy on married priests, I would think that you'd be concerned about this also.
 
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kepha31

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Would God cause a filthy donkey to speak his words and warn his prophet? Yes.
Did that sanctify the donkey?

Would God cause a rooster, who pecks the ground and in short order becomes dinner, to crow and convict the heart of Peter? Yes.
Did that justify the rooster?

So would God heal those coming in faith to him for healing? Sure!
Does that sanctify the place?

What about the many miracles Jesus preformed, are each of those places holy now?

In fact Jesus told those that he healed, on a regular basis, "by your faith" you are healed or made whole, or restored. Not because of a place, a vision, a special miracle... but by faith.

I do not discount the healing of God - I simply ask for proof what any of it has to do with Mary, versus an individuals faith. And I also question how the healing happening at that place justifies the veneration show to Mary, if God also used many other vessels over time, including a donkey and a rooster?
You are sadly mistaken. Mary doesn't heal anybody, God does that. Mary, by the grace of Christ, brings the prayers to God. That's called intercession. It is God who answers the prayers, not Mary. What you are really denying is a false caricature, a straw man fallacy.

Whenever discussing a doctrine, it is always effective to define your terms. "Pray" is an Old English word that means simply "to ask." In Protestant theology, the word has become synonymous with worship, but that is not the original use of the term.

Any time a Catholic utters a petition to a saint, it is taken for granted that it is a request for that saint to pray to God for them. For example, the "Hail Mary" contains the request, "pray for us sinners." If you ask a person to pray for you, it proves that you do not think that he is God. What needs to be stressed here is that none of our prayers terminate in the saints, as if they had the power in and of themselves to answer prayers. get it?

(1) Miracles are defined as: instances where events happen in such close temporal proximity and in logical connection to religious evocation, such as prayer; said events stand out from what we understand to be the set course of nature; said events cannot be explained through any known natural agency; said events create religious affections in the lives of those connected with them.

(2) Miracles are perceived to be interventions or influences of Supernature upon the lower sphere of nature.

(3) Thousands of such examples have been documented in modern times.

(4) When and if such occurrences affect the life of a believer, the believer is then justified in assuming that some supernatural effect has occurred

(5) If a supernatural effect happens, it is assumed that God works such an effect

(6) Such effects have occurred, therefore, the believer is justified in such a belief.

(7) A justified belief in the action of God is a justification for a rational belief in God. Therefore, the real first hand experience of this type of event, or the credible confidence in such documented cases justifies a rational warrant for belief.
Scientific Evidence for Miracles page 1: examination of the Lourdes rules for miracel acceptence.
 
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Thursday

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Do you believe that God can create an object so heavy that He cannot move it?

If you can answer this question, then I will answer your equally oxymoronic question?


God can do everything that can be done.

My question has a yes or no answer. You choose to avoid it for some reason.
 
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Thursday

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When your older brother comes and tells you to do something because "Mom said" but the thing he is telling you to do is not actually what "Mom said," he has removed himself from the covering of Mom's authority. We are told to try every spirit. And when the "church leaders" bring doctrine outside of the scope of scripture we are obligated to bring every thought to the obedience of Christ.

We have already discussed on this forum - Paul told us if someone else, even an angel from heaven, comes and brings any other doctrine, he is accursed!


Tell that to Martin Luther and the other Reformers.

John warned us about them:

1 John 2
19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
 
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Thursday

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Let me phrase this differently, maybe then we can get to the meat of it:

This priest who has decided he wants to be married, must choose between remaining a priest or becoming a husband - right?

All I am saying, if this is true - it is contrary to what Paul taught.


True, just as a man who takes a marriage vow must choose between remaining married to his wife or taking another. A vow is a vow.

It is in no way contrary to what Paul taught.
 
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Thursday

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I have given you multiple examples of where Catholicism does not follow the early church, each with biblical foundation.

You have done no such thing. You have merely stated your man made opinion which has no authority.

You were not given authority by Christ or his successors to teach.
 
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Thursday

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For your statement "Jesus told us to listen to the Church" would you give the reference please? Also, which are you using for "Jesus told the Church leaders that those who reject them are rejecting him", since you use the wording "Church leaders" as the ones rejected, instead of the gospel, or Christ. (note: the "Church" I take to be one, as He prayed it would be in John 17, that is already -- this is already; thus it must be transcendent to our own labeling of any church even if you use merely the examples of conversions outside of any labeled church as an instance. Put another way, no power of any kind can separate us from the love of God, as Paul wrote.)


Matt 18:17
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."

1 John 4
6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirita of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
 
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Vicomte13

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Translation: you thought you remembered something about prayer there, but you couldn't find it.

I could have told you that. Oh wait, I did. :D

My fellow Catholics - I have a problem here. You have read what I have had to say on this thread, up and down it, point after point.

This Anglican doesn't agree with our Church, which is fine, but he has gone past that, and decided to assert that what I have said is not Catholic, that my church does not believe the things I have said.

In the earlier case, it was over the matter of the ultimate authority of Scripture over the Church. I stated that Catholics believe that God expresses himself through the Church, and that the Written Tradition (Scripture) and the "Oral" Tradition (which is really also written) are both important, but that it is the Holy Spirit, speaking through the Teaching Authority of the Church, that determines what the Traditions - which include Scripture - MEAN. The Church is the source and authority of Scripture, not the reverse.

He has said I was wrong.

Here, he has doubled down on it. He has stated that there are no doctrines of importance in the Deuterocanonica. I have pointed to the offerings for the dead that occurred in 2 Maccabbees 38-46 (when the dead soldiers were found to have had medallions of a goddess around their necks). At his invitation to go fetch I demurred, and told him to go look it up himself.

I am irritated at being lectured on Catholicism by an Anglican, and I am not feeling very charitable. Nor am I feeling like entering into endless bickering.

It would gratify me immensely if several of you Catholics who are reading this, who have seen what I have written to this Anglican and seen his responses, would confirm that yes, I have stated what Catholics believe. We are all entitled to our own beliefs, but we are not entitled to our own facts, and it would be useful for him, I think, to see that yes, Catholicism does indeed believe these things that he rejects, because he likes to think of himself as an Anglo-Catholic, but in the end Protestantism is tied to the Bible, while Catholicism is tied to the Holy Spirit, who lives in the Church.

If you DON'T agree with me and think that what I have said about Catholicism is NOT true, and that the Anglican is more truly conveying the facts of the Catholic faith than I am, I would also appreciate it if you stood forward and said so.

I will be surprised if anybody does so, but please don't hold back if you think I am misrepresenting the Faith here.

If the Catholics speak univocally on the matter, the point of what we believe will be established, and the erroneous beliefs asserted about what we believe will be removed. I would be very glad to see it.
 
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Vicomte13

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You are sadly mistaken. Mary doesn't heal anybody, God does that. Mary, by the grace of Christ, brings the prayers to God. That's called intercession. It is God who answers the prayers, not Mary. What you are really denying is a false caricature, a straw man fallacy.

Whenever discussing a doctrine, it is always effective to define your terms. "Pray" is an Old English word that means simply "to ask." In Protestant theology, the word has become synonymous with worship, but that is not the original use of the term.

Any time a Catholic utters a petition to a saint, it is taken for granted that it is a request for that saint to pray to God for them. For example, the "Hail Mary" contains the request, "pray for us sinners." If you ask a person to pray for you, it proves that you do not think that he is God. What needs to be stressed here is that none of our prayers terminate in the saints, as if they had the power in and of themselves to answer prayers. get it?

(1) Miracles are defined as: instances where events happen in such close temporal proximity and in logical connection to religious evocation, such as prayer; said events stand out from what we understand to be the set course of nature; said events cannot be explained through any known natural agency; said events create religious affections in the lives of those connected with them.

(2) Miracles are perceived to be interventions or influences of Supernature upon the lower sphere of nature.

(3) Thousands of such examples have been documented in modern times.

(4) When and if such occurrences affect the life of a believer, the believer is then justified in assuming that some supernatural effect has occurred

(5) If a supernatural effect happens, it is assumed that God works such an effect

(6) Such effects have occurred, therefore, the believer is justified in such a belief.

(7) A justified belief in the action of God is a justification for a rational belief in God. Therefore, the real first hand experience of this type of event, or the credible confidence in such documented cases justifies a rational warrant for belief.
Scientific Evidence for Miracles page 1: examination of the Lourdes rules for miracel acceptence.
Fantastic post. Thank you.
 
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kepha31

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My fellow Catholics - I have a problem here. You have read what I have had to say on this thread, up and down it, point after point.

This Anglican doesn't agree with our Church, which is fine, but he has gone past that, and decided to assert that what I have said is not Catholic, that my church does not believe the things I have said.

In the earlier case, it was over the matter of the ultimate authority of Scripture over the Church. I stated that Catholics believe that God expresses himself through the Church, and that the Written Tradition (Scripture) and the "Oral" Tradition (which is really also written) are both important, but that it is the Holy Spirit, speaking through the Teaching Authority of the Church, that determines what the Traditions - which include Scripture - MEAN. The Church is the source and authority of Scripture, not the reverse.

He has said I was wrong.

Here, he has doubled down on it. He has stated that there are no doctrines of importance in the Deuterocanonica. I have pointed to the offerings for the dead that occurred in 2 Maccabbees 38-46 (when the dead soldiers were found to have had medallions of a goddess around their necks). At his invitation to go fetch I demurred, and told him to go look it up himself.

I am irritated at being lectured on Catholicism by an Anglican, and I am not feeling very charitable. Nor am I feeling like entering into endless bickering.

It would gratify me immensely if several of you Catholics who are reading this, who have seen what I have written to this Anglican and seen his responses, would confirm that yes, I have stated what Catholics believe. We are all entitled to our own beliefs, but we are not entitled to our own facts, and it would be useful for him, I think, to see that yes, Catholicism does indeed believe these things that he rejects, because he likes to think of himself as an Anglo-Catholic, but in the end Protestantism is tied to the Bible, while Catholicism is tied to the Holy Spirit, who lives in the Church.

If you DON'T agree with me and think that what I have said about Catholicism is NOT true, and that the Anglican is more truly conveying the facts of the Catholic faith than I am, I would also appreciate it if you stood forward and said so.

I will be surprised if anybody does so, but please don't hold back if you think I am misrepresenting the Faith here.

If the Catholics speak univocally on the matter, the point of what we believe will be established, and the erroneous beliefs asserted about what we believe will be removed. I would be very glad to see it.
How dare you contradict his preconceived notions!!!
 
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PeaceB

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My fellow Catholics - I have a problem here. You have read what I have had to say on this thread, up and down it, point after point.

This Anglican doesn't agree with our Church, which is fine, but he has gone past that, and decided to assert that what I have said is not Catholic, that my church does not believe the things I have said.

In the earlier case, it was over the matter of the ultimate authority of Scripture over the Church. I stated that Catholics believe that God expresses himself through the Church, and that the Written Tradition (Scripture) and the "Oral" Tradition (which is really also written) are both important, but that it is the Holy Spirit, speaking through the Teaching Authority of the Church, that determines what the Traditions - which include Scripture - MEAN. The Church is the source and authority of Scripture, not the reverse.

He has said I was wrong.

Here, he has doubled down on it. He has stated that there are no doctrines of importance in the Deuterocanonica. I have pointed to the offerings for the dead that occurred in 2 Maccabbees 38-46 (when the dead soldiers were found to have had medallions of a goddess around their necks). At his invitation to go fetch I demurred, and told him to go look it up himself.

I am irritated at being lectured on Catholicism by an Anglican, and I am not feeling very charitable. Nor am I feeling like entering into endless bickering.

It would gratify me immensely if several of you Catholics who are reading this, who have seen what I have written to this Anglican and seen his responses, would confirm that yes, I have stated what Catholics believe. We are all entitled to our own beliefs, but we are not entitled to our own facts, and it would be useful for him, I think, to see that yes, Catholicism does indeed believe these things that he rejects, because he likes to think of himself as an Anglo-Catholic, but in the end Protestantism is tied to the Bible, while Catholicism is tied to the Holy Spirit, who lives in the Church.

If you DON'T agree with me and think that what I have said about Catholicism is NOT true, and that the Anglican is more truly conveying the facts of the Catholic faith than I am, I would also appreciate it if you stood forward and said so.

I will be surprised if anybody does so, but please don't hold back if you think I am misrepresenting the Faith here.

If the Catholics speak univocally on the matter, the point of what we believe will be established, and the erroneous beliefs asserted about what we believe will be removed. I would be very glad to see it.
I have not been following the full discussion between the two of you, but if you get annoyed by him, just remind him that he would have no idea what books are in the Bible except for that the Catholic Church told him so, and ask him to demonstrate how he knows that the New Testament consists of the 27, and only the 27 books that we recognize as the New Testament. Or ask him to provide a single verse in Scripture that proves Sola Sciptura. That should be enough to make him go away for a while.

As for what you wrote, I am not sure that I would agree with all of it. Let's take it point by point.

Catholics believe that God expresses himself through the Church, (Agreed, although He also works through non-Catholic communities of faith)

and that the Written Tradition (Scripture) and the "Oral" Tradition (which is really also written) are both important, (Agreed)

but that it is the Holy Spirit, speaking through the Teaching Authority of the Church, that determines what the Traditions - which include Scripture - MEAN. (Perhaps, I am not quite sure that I would phrase it this way. I would need to think about it a little more. Perhaps I might say that the Holy Spirit prevents the pope from speaking error under the conditions where infallibility is present).

The Church is the source and authority of Scripture, not the reverse. (Perhaps. I might call the "source" of Scripture to be the men who wrote the books (who are all Catholic, of course) under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. In a strict sense God is the author of Scripture, who worked through Catholic men to put the revelation down on paper. I would need to think about this a bit more. As for the Church being the authority over Scripture, here is what Dei Verbum has to say:

But the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, (8) has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, (9) whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed.​

I would take a look through Dei Verbum concerning all of your questions. I think most of them are addressed there in one form or another.)
 
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Vicomte13

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I have not been following the full discussion between the two of you, but if you get annoyed by him, just remind him that he would have no idea what books are in the Bible except for that the Catholic Church told him so, and ask him to demonstrate how he knows that the New Testament consists of the 27, and only the 27 books that we recognize as the New Testament. Or ask him to provide a single verse in Scripture that proves Sola Sciptura. That should be enough to make him go away for a while.

As for what you wrote, I am not sure that I would agree with all of it. Let's take it point by point.

Catholics believe that God expresses himself through the Church, (Agreed, although He also works through non-Catholic communities of faith)

and that the Written Tradition (Scripture) and the "Oral" Tradition (which is really also written) are both important, (Agreed)

but that it is the Holy Spirit, speaking through the Teaching Authority of the Church, that determines what the Traditions - which include Scripture - MEAN. (Perhaps, I am not quite sure that I would phrase it this way. I would need to think about it a little more. Perhaps I might say that the Holy Spirit prevents the pope from speaking error under the conditions where infallibility is present).

The Church is the source and authority of Scripture, not the reverse. (Perhaps. I might call the "source" of Scripture to be the men who wrote the books (who are all Catholic, of course) under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. In a strict sense God is the author of Scripture, who worked through Catholic men to put the revelation down on paper. I would need to think about this a bit more. As for the Church being the authority over Scripture, here is what Dei Verbum has to say:

But the task of authentically interpreting the word of God, whether written or handed on, (8) has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church, (9) whose authority is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ. This teaching office is not above the word of God, but serves it, teaching only what has been handed on, listening to it devoutly, guarding it scrupulously and explaining it faithfully in accord with a divine commission and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it draws from this one deposit of faith everything which it presents for belief as divinely revealed.​

I would take a look through Dei Verbum concerning all of your questions. I think most of them are addressed there in one form or another.)

Thank you.
 
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kepha31

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My fellow Catholics - I have a problem here. You have read what I have had to say on this thread, up and down it, point after point.

This Anglican doesn't agree with our Church, which is fine, but he has gone past that, and decided to assert that what I have said is not Catholic, that my church does not believe the things I have said.

In the earlier case, it was over the matter of the ultimate authority of Scripture over the Church. I stated that Catholics believe that God expresses himself through the Church, and that the Written Tradition (Scripture) and the "Oral" Tradition (which is really also written) are both important, but that it is the Holy Spirit, speaking through the Teaching Authority of the Church, that determines what the Traditions - which include Scripture - MEAN. The Church is the source and authority of Scripture, not the reverse.

He has said I was wrong.
He thinks you mean the Church is over scripture, which is absurd.
Here, he has doubled down on it. He has stated that there are no doctrines of importance in the Deuterocanonica. I have pointed to the offerings for the dead that occurred in 2 Maccabbees 38-46 (when the dead soldiers were found to have had medallions of a goddess around their necks). At his invitation to go fetch I demurred, and told him to go look it up himself.
They can deny the inspiration of the Deuterocanonical if they feel like it, but denying its historical value???

I am irritated at being lectured on Catholicism by an Anglican, and I am not feeling very charitable. Nor am I feeling like entering into endless bickering.
Commend him to the care of St. Ignora, get used to snake pits.

It would gratify me immensely if several of you Catholics who are reading this, who have seen what I have written to this Anglican and seen his responses, would confirm that yes, I have stated what Catholics believe. We are all entitled to our own beliefs, but we are not entitled to our own facts, and it would be useful for him, I think, to see that yes, Catholicism does indeed believe these things that he rejects, because he likes to think of himself as an Anglo-Catholic, but in the end Protestantism is tied to the Bible, while Catholicism is tied to the Holy Spirit, who lives in the Church.

If you DON'T agree with me and think that what I have said about Catholicism is NOT true, and that the Anglican is more truly conveying the facts of the Catholic faith than I am, I would also appreciate it if you stood forward and said so.

I will be surprised if anybody does so, but please don't hold back if you think I am misrepresenting the Faith here.

If the Catholics speak univocally on the matter, the point of what we believe will be established, and the erroneous beliefs asserted about what we believe will be removed. I would be very glad to see it.
Everything the Church teaches is available on official sites for all to see. There are good apologetic sites explaining and defending the faith for anyone who wants to read the evidence..Home | Catholic Answers
there are others, beware of imitations
 
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Albion

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I have not been following the full discussion between the two of you, but if you get annoyed by him, just remind him that he would have no idea what books are in the Bible except for that the Catholic Church told him so
That's a cute little line signifying nothing. But it's only been used about fifty times here lately.

In the first place there was no Catholic Church at that point in time.

And in the second, it doesn't say a thing about Sola Scriptura to say that Christian councils made a determination as to which books are inspired.

What matters is that all Christian churches believe them to BE the inspired word of God. That being the case, do we treat them as such or go with the opinions of men instead?

We say that the word of God is an authority that has no equal. Your church says "No" to that.
 
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Reactions: Phil 1:21
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