Catholics or Orthodox: How do we know which church is "better"? (No protestants, please)

[ArmyMatt]

So tell me. Who is more of the christian.. person A who is aligned to the "right church" but doesn't exhibit any form of positive lifestyle or relationships or person b a person who isn't aligned to the right church yet acknowledges the Trinity and is all that i described?

Is Archimandrite Iakovos Giosakis more of a christian over those Hillsong singers because he aligns to the church whose traditions/teachings "are accurate to the ways of Jesus' 12"?

only God knows who would be more Christian in the end, since while we can see someone's virtue we cannot see their repentance.

and, you are setting this up as if God judges someone's Christianity based on the minimalist standard you keep dancing around (He doesn't).

and none of this changes the fact that there is only one true Church, and you are either in it or not.

 

[Cis.jd]

only God knows who would be more Christian in the end, since while we can see someone's virtue we cannot see their repentance.

and, you are setting this up as if God judges someone's Christianity based on the minimalist standard you keep dancing around (He doesn't).

and none of this changes the fact that there is only one true Church, and you are either in it or not.

So in short you don't know yourself what is a real christian then. Only God knows, so you don't really know if being aligned/subscribed to the true church who has the right doctrine is favored over a person living a good christian life yet in a different church?

There is one true church in terms of the academics but what i am telling you is that there is something more than that. Let me give you another example: in NYC, there was this Eastern Orthodox person who was very "religious" he attended his church almost every worship day, he knew the verses and the history.. yet he had habits of cursing at homeless people, sometimes racist views against Mexicans, and he had cases of hitting his wife in the past.. you are telling me that there is a chance that God sees him as the real christian over the hillsong singers? I'm not talking about redemption, because he could repent of his ways in the future.. i don't know, but is being a real christian between the two?

The true church these days is not what is more factual academically on paper but what is capable of that spiritual growth and relationship with Christ. Deep down you know this makes sense but you don't want to admit as what i see in this post.

 

[dzheremi]

This conversation is full of gobbledygook.

Eastern Orthodox don't hippie-ish, feel-good, dematerialized/cosmic ecclesiology; Catholics (or at least one of them posting in this thread) do. That's another way to tell which one is better.

 

[prodromos]

Deep down you know this makes sense but you don't want to admit as what i see in this post.

You have serious problems with perception then.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So in short you don't know yourself what is a real christian then. Only God knows, so you don't really know if being aligned/subscribed to the true church who has the right doctrine is favored over a person living a good christian life yet in a different church?

There is one true church in terms of the academics but what i am telling you is that there is something more than that. Let me give you another example: in NYC, there was this Eastern Orthodox person who was very "religious" he attended his church almost every worship day, he knew the verses and the history.. yet he had habits of cursing at homeless people, sometimes racist views against Mexicans, and he had cases of hitting his wife in the past.. you are telling me that there is a chance that God sees him as the real christian over the hillsong singers? I'm not talking about redemption, because he could repent of his ways in the future.. i don't know, but is being a real christian between the two?

The true church these days is not what is more factual academically on paper but what is capable of that spiritual growth and relationship with Christ. Deep down you know this makes sense but you don't want to admit as what i see in this post.

and I am saying, for the umpteenth time, that you are wrong from the Orthodox POV and Church history. we can know WHAT a real Christian is, what we cannot know necessarily is WHO is one based on what we see them do, because there is much we cannot see.

the true Church these days is what the true Church has always been, the one Orthodox Church. the hillsong singers are therefore not in the Church.

and just by coming up with pious members of Protestantism versus nominal Orthodox does not change the definition of what the Church is. so I reject what you are saying not because I don't want to admit it and you are right, but because you are wrong. history does not support what you are saying. read St Cyprian of Carthage if you don't believe me.

 

[Cis.jd]

and I am saying, for the umpteenth time, that you are wrong from the Orthodox POV and Church history. we can know WHAT a real Christian is, what we cannot know necessarily is WHO is one based on what we see them do, because there is much we cannot see.

the true Church these days is what the true Church has always been, the one Orthodox Church. the hillsong singers are therefore not in the Church.

and just by coming up with pious members of Protestantism versus nominal Orthodox does not change the definition of what the Church is. so I reject what you are saying not because I don't want to admit it and you are right, but because you are wrong. history does not support what you are saying. read St Cyprian of Carthage if you don't believe me.

No you don't get it. I've gave a clear distinction between a church based on the academics what i am telling you is that it isn't as important over the spirituality of the person. It's the spirituality that shows the real christian not the church he is subscribed to. I have never gave any arguments about the Orthodox POV or it's history, i'm just using names of denomination to fill in the analogy. Not describe them. You still can't understand that so you saying "i'm wrong about the orthodox pov" is far off if you understood the context of my argument... you telling me to read St Cyprian shows that you really didn't understand anything i said and just automatically interpret this as pure academics.

You already admitted in the earlier post that you weren't sure who was the real christian, because deep down you know that logically, there is no way for that specific Orthodox Christian to be ever seen as more christian than one of the Hillsong members.

 

[ArmyMatt]

No you don't get it. I've gave a clear distinction between a church based on the academics what i am telling you is that it isn't as important over the spirituality of the person. It's the spirituality that shows the real christian not the church he is subscribed to. I have never gave any arguments about the Orthodox POV or it's history, i'm just using names of denomination to fill in the analogy. Not describe them. You still can't understand that so you saying "i'm wrong about the orthodox pov" is far off if you understood the context of my argument... you telling me to read St Cyprian shows that you really didn't understand anything i said and just automatically interpret this as pure academics.

You already admitted in the earlier post that you weren't sure who was the real christian, because deep down you know that logically, there is no way for that specific Orthodox Christian to be ever seen as more christian than one of the Hillsong members.

and I am saying the distinction you are making is a false one. there is no Church of academics vs Church of the spirituality of the person. that is a distinction you made up and your argument only works if I accept your presupposition. I don't because it's false. there is only the Church.

and I don't deny, nor have I, that the hillsong singer might be more pious than the nominal Orthodox or whatever. but I can say the Orthodox is more Christian in the sense that he is in the true Church, whereas the hillsong singer is not.

 

[Cis.jd]

and I am saying the distinction you are making is a false one. there is no Church of academics vs Church of the spirituality of the person. that is a distinction you made up and your argument only works if I accept your presupposition. I don't because it's false. there is only the Church.

and I don't deny, nor have I, that the hillsong singer might be more pious than the nominal Orthodox or whatever. but I can say the Orthodox is more Christian in the sense that he is in the true Church, whereas the hillsong singer is not.

There pretty much is a church of academics vs spirituality. I can't be making it up because i've given examples of it.

There is no way anybody is a better christian because of the doctrine he is aligned to: regardless of it being right/true (iyo) because if this person never developed nor exhibited christian values then it is meaningless. There is no way any reasonable/open minded person can say that Orthodox man who hits his wife and has racist views against Mexicans is in anyway more christian just because of him being a member of the "true church". Those hillsong members show what a christian is supposed to be, he doesn't regardless of the doctrines he believes in. You sound completely bias towards your church.

 

[prodromos]

Those hillsong members show what a christian is supposed to be, he doesn't regardless of the doctrines he believes in.

Outward appearances can be deceiving. Your examples of "good" Christians could be secret paedophiles for all we know.

You sound completely bias towards your church.

You sound completely biased against the official teaching of your own. Why are you arguing with Orthodox when your beliefs don't even line up with your own Church?

 

[Cis.jd]

Outward appearances can be deceiving. Your examples of "good" Christians could be secret paedophiles for all we know.

but what if they are not pedophiles or any random negative that your imagination can think of, and they (not just the band but the members in their church) are actually genuine in what they are trying to do for God?

You sound completely biased against the official teaching of your own. Why are you arguing with Orthodox when your beliefs don't even line up with your own Church?

I'm not against the teachings of the Church, i believe Roman Catholicism is completely correct academically but i will not deny the human corruption i've seen from church fathers nor will i deny that most catholic born/raised young adults are commonly apathetic to God while with protestant raised it was the opposite. Even Bishop Barron admits this when you watch his chat with William L Craig.

i went to catholic schools from preschool to college, i took one year out of my hs and moved to a protestant high school... guess which of the two had the students who actually cared about their relationship with God?

Now does this make Protestant churches the true church over the RCC, no.. they fail academically and there are bad apples of protestants, but those protestants that i use as examples show a much real church in comparison to the catholic one, regardless of doctrinal views.

 

[prodromos]

but what if they are not pedophiles or any random negative that your imagination can think of, and they (not just the band but the members in their church) are actually genuine in what they are trying to do for God?

That is something only God can know which is why we do not judge one way or the other because in doing so we usurp God's authority.

I'm not against the teachings of the Church

Your posts are contrary to Catholic doctrine, although it is not so easy to tell these days. The Catholicism of today is far removed from the Catholicism of the 12th century.

 

[Cis.jd]

That is something only God can know which is why we do not judge one way or the other because in doing so we usurp God's authority.

But i am being hypothetical here. If they really are doing this for Christ (which they obviously are) and to lead people to him, why would they be considered less christian that a woman beating & racist Orthodox? The whole "we can't judge" is ridiculous just like your out of the blue "what if they are actually pedophiles"; its like you are dodging to answer straight forward on this.

Your posts are contrary to Catholic doctrine, although it is not so easy to tell these days. The Catholicism of today is far removed from the Catholicism of the 12th century.

How in what way? I have not denied the apostles creed nor have i made arguments against various catholic dogma. I'm stating that being affiliated to the correct doctrine/church/theology is meaningless compared to living an honest christian life

 

[ArmyMatt]

There pretty much is a church of academics vs spirituality. I can't be making it up because i've given examples of it.

There is no way anybody is a better christian because of the doctrine he is aligned to: regardless of it being right/true (iyo) because if this person never developed nor exhibited christian values then it is meaningless. There is no way any reasonable/open minded person can say that Orthodox man who hits his wife and has racist views against Mexicans is in anyway more christian just because of him being a member of the "true church". Those hillsong members show what a christian is supposed to be, he doesn't regardless of the doctrines he believes in. You sound completely bias towards your church.

no, there is no Church of academics vs Church of spirituality. you made that up. nowhere has the Church ever been defined that way. nor has anyone ever said ever that you can be a Christian regardless of doctrine. the examples you gave presuppose you are properly defining the Church, and you are not.

and I can say that the non-existent racist who beats his wife might be more Christian because I cannot see his repentance for those sins. and, as I said earlier, him being in the true Church means he has fulfilled something required by Christ that the hillsong singer is not. and I also said earlier for the sinner who is not repentant, the very truth he has compared to the hillsong singer will be for his condemnation.

outliers don't disprove the norm, so it's foolish to continue to bring them up.

and of course I am biased toward Orthodoxy, I would not be Orthodox if I wasn't.

 

[Cis.jd]

no, there is no Church of academics vs Church of spirituality. you made that up. nowhere has the Church ever been defined that way. nor has anyone ever said ever that you can be a Christian regardless of doctrine. the examples you gave presuppose you are properly defining the Church, and you are not.

and I can say that the non-existent racist who beats his wife might be more Christian because I cannot see his repentance for those sins. and, as I said earlier, him being in the true Church means he has fulfilled something required by Christ that the hillsong singer is not. and I also said earlier for the sinner who is not repentant, the very truth he has compared to the hillsong singer will be for his condemnation.

outliers don't disprove the norm, so it's foolish to continue to bring them up.

and of course I am biased toward Orthodoxy, I would not be Orthodox if I wasn't.

Sadly your bias disables you from actually understanding my post. I hope you understand the whole "church of academics vs church of spirituality". In layman's terms (so you can actually get what it means) it is relationship over religion.

If you think a racist who beats his wife is more christian and showing true christianity over a person who actually uses his/her talents to God and gives messages to people around the world about God, all because of specific doctrines/church he is aligned with then that shows that your church denies the gospels and what it is supposed to be. But you've already stated your stance, as long as you are in the right church then i'm all ok now. I'm more christian than any other denomination.. they can feed the poor, they can evangelize, they can try to give a word from God to inspire the depressed to have faith... but they don't believe in our church so God likes us more. I should convert to EO, apparently i can hit women, maybe indulge in what ever sexual immorality, or any kind of sin and i'm still more christian than any other denomination because this is the church i'm a member..Sorry sir, you just explained that the EO doesn't show a God of love but a God that is almost like Allah. Apparently loving one another false short to doctrinal alliance.

Thank you for admitting that you chose to be that close minded, the way you've shown to be incapable of understanding phrases i put out made it obvious from the beginning.. but thank you for the honesty.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sadly your bias disables you from actually understanding my post. I hope you understand the whole "church of academics vs church of spirituality". In layman's terms (so you can actually get what it means) it is relationship over religion.

If you think a racist who beats his wife is more christian and showing true christianity over a person who actually uses his/her talents to God and gives messages to people around the world about God, all because of specific doctrines/church he is aligned with then that shows that your church denies the gospels and what it is supposed to be. But you've already stated your stance, as long as you are in the right church then i'm all ok now. I'm more christian than any other denomination.. they can feed the poor, they can evangelize, they can try to give a word from God to inspire the depressed to have faith... but they don't believe in our church so God likes us more. I should convert to EO, apparently i can hit women, maybe indulge in what ever sexual immorality, or any kind of sin and i'm still more christian than any other denomination because this is the church i'm a member..Sorry sir, you just explained that the EO doesn't show a God of love but a God that is almost like Allah. Apparently loving one another false short to doctrinal alliance.

Thank you for admitting that you chose to be that close minded, the way you've shown to be incapable of understanding phrases i put out made it obvious from the beginning.. but thank you for the honesty.

heavy sarcasm and snarkiness aside, I did not actually say what you are accusing me of.

for one, I took issue with the wrong way you defined Church. for two, I said the guy who beats his wife and is racist is only more Christian in ONE specific sense. for three, I said if that guy doesn't repent, the grace that he is given will be unto his condemnation. for four, I never once commented on the final state of the soul of the hillsong singer or where he stands before God.

it's not that I don't get how you have defined things, it's that I don't agree. yes, you have said them very simply, but a heretical view of what the Church is, is still heretical, no matter how you try to truss it up. the very fact that you brought up religion vs relationship shows you don't really understand how WE view things, which is why I have disagreed with what you said.

 

[prodromos]

Sadly your bias disables you from actually understanding my post. I hope you understand the whole "church of academics vs church of spirituality". In layman's terms (so you can actually get what it means) it is relationship over religion.

If you think a racist who beats his wife is more christian and showing true christianity over a person who actually uses his/her talents to God and gives messages to people around the world about God, all because of specific doctrines/church he is aligned with then that shows that your church denies the gospels and what it is supposed to be. But you've already stated your stance, as long as you are in the right church then i'm all ok now. I'm more christian than any other denomination.. they can feed the poor, they can evangelize, they can try to give a word from God to inspire the depressed to have faith... but they don't believe in our church so God likes us more. I should convert to EO, apparently i can hit women, maybe indulge in what ever sexual immorality, or any kind of sin and i'm still more christian than any other denomination because this is the church i'm a member..Sorry sir, you just explained that the EO doesn't show a God of love but a God that is almost like Allah. Apparently loving one another false short to doctrinal alliance.

Thank you for admitting that you chose to be that close minded, the way you've shown to be incapable of understanding phrases i put out made it obvious from the beginning.. but thank you for the honesty.

I believe it is your close mindedness which prevents you from understanding.

 

[All4Christ]

Often, there is miscommunication as to what Christian means in various context and what salvation is in relation to being a Christian.

Ultimately, not all who are Orthodox will be / have been saved, and I believe there will be non-Orthodox who will be / have been saved. The Church is not synonymous with being saved in the end. We have been saved, will be saved and God willing, should we stay the course, will be saved. We aren’t forced though. Honestly, the Orthodox Christian who does not follow God has greater danger, as to whom much is given, much will be required. Woe to those who know the fullness of truth and spurn it. Knowing that Orthodoxy is the Church does not mean the arrogant belief that every single person who is baptized /chrismated Orthodox will be saved. Salvation does not necessarily mean Christian and vice versa.

ETA: certainly this does not mean that we can judge someone’s salvation or integrity of faith and love for God.

 

[ArmyMatt]

just a tweak but I think that the Church is synonymous with the saved. only that many who were not Orthodox in this life will join at death or the Second Coming, and many who were in the Church their whole life will reject the Church in the end.

 

[Cis.jd]

heavy sarcasm and snarkiness aside, I did not actually say what you are accusing me of.

for one, I took issue with the wrong way you defined Church. for two, I said the guy who beats his wife and is racist is only more Christian in ONE specific sense. for three, I said if that guy doesn't repent, the grace that he is given will be unto his condemnation. for four, I never once commented on the final state of the soul of the hillsong singer or where he stands before God.

What was wrong about how i defined the church? I never went against it's academical side, i'm talking about how completely meaningless the doctrines can become when the member him/herself shows a selfish like lifestyle. You sort of agree with this as to what this paragraph shows, the alignment of the truth church is not superior than the christian life.

I told you that me, i stand with the Catholic church as the true church. We can argue the theological/historical side as to why I think the RC is much more accurate to the apostolic/biblical truth than the EO, but i'm engaging in that i'm simply on the argument of when a Christian is really a christian and it isn't just because of doctrinal views.

The RCC is superior to any protestant denomination when it comes to all the theology talk, regardless i can't say all catholics are better christians (or actual christians) over specific protestants because the main downfall of the RCC is that a lot of the churches that are common around the world do not focus on the most important factor.. which is relationships. Because of this many leave to either atheism or protestantism because in protestantism (especially with young adults) this is where they can actually build a circle and actually fall in love with christ because of how good protestant churches show the value of personal relationships with Christ.
The person is supposed to be the temple of the Holy Spirit, and if that person is living a good life regardless of doctrinal views then he is showing the real church of christ.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What was wrong about how i defined the church? I never went against it's academical side, i'm talking about how completely meaningless the doctrines can become when the member him/herself shows a selfish like lifestyle. You sort of agree with this as to what this paragraph shows, the alignment of the truth church is not superior than the christian life.

I told you that me, i stand with the Catholic church as the true church. We can argue the theological/historical side as to why I think the RC is much more accurate to the apostolic/biblical truth than the EO, but i'm engaging in that i'm simply on the argument of when a Christian is really a christian and it isn't just because of doctrinal views.

The RCC is superior to any protestant denomination when it comes to all the theology talk, regardless i can't say all catholics are better christians (or actual christians) over specific protestants because the main downfall of the RCC is that a lot of the churches that are common around the world do not focus on the most important factor.. which is relationships. Because of this many leave to either atheism or protestantism because in protestantism (especially with young adults) this is where they can actually build a circle and actually fall in love with christ because of how good protestant churches show the value of personal relationships with Christ.
The person is supposed to be the temple of the Holy Spirit, and if that person is living a good life regardless of doctrinal views then he is showing the real church of christ.

the error was not simply to say that the Church has an academic side, but that there is an academic Church countered to a personal one. there is only one Church which you did not say earlier.

and I said out the gate that if the nominal Orthodox does not repent, it is unto his condemnation.

there is no personal relationship with Christ apart from the communal relationship with Christ which only truly happens within the Church.