Catholics or Orthodox: How do we know which church is "better"? (No protestants, please)

Unofficial Reverand Alex

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I've got a book I'm about halfway through on Catholicism, and another book a friendly Orthodox brother sent me on Orthodoxy. Until I get through both of these, I won't be able to talk intelligently about how one church is "better" than the other.
So, until I get my reading done, I want to open this up to anyone who's already knowlegeable about both relgions, who can share their insight as to which one is actually the mystical "One True Church".
 

anna ~ grace

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Oh, boy. Alright. Well.... something that drew me to the Catholic Church (and still is drawing me) is her emphasis on love and sacrifice. And the missions of many of Her orders to perform physical acts of mercy (feeding the hungry, clothing the naked).

What I have appreciated about Orthodoxy is how informed and well-spoken many of Her priests seem to be. A Greek Orthodox article convinced me of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, and the Orthodox hymns helped me grasp the value and sense of praying to or at least praising Saints directly.
 
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TuxAme

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Well, most of the issue is hinged on the papacy, isn't it? If the Pope is the visible head of the Church, then the Orthodox need to come home to Rome. If he's not, then we're in trouble and need to reunite with the Orthodox.

So, let's see what the early Church had to say!
 
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ArmyMatt

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bluntly speaking, Orthodoxy is true because Rome has innovated a lot of heresy. the problem is much of what was viewed as actual theological differences, modern Popes have tried to sweep under the rug.

a look at Church history, in my opinion, shows how far Rome keeps leaving her Apostolic roots.
 
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Netgear

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bluntly speaking, Orthodoxy is true because Rome has innovated a lot of heresy. the problem is much of what was viewed as actual theological differences, modern Popes have tried to sweep under the rug.

a look at Church history, in my opinion, shows how far Rome keeps leaving her Apostolic roots.

Thats a matter of opinion though.
 
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I can imagine this thread going in many directions.

First a rather unimportant one. I will say that there is the potential for Catholicism to be tempting - if one considers a much less important factor - there is a large parish a few minutes from me. They have mass every day. They are extremely active and it would be easy to get involved. By contrast my Orthodox parish is almost an hour away. We have one priest, no deacon, and a medium number of families, so we are limited in the number of services we have. It's harder to be socially involved or involved in other parish things for those reasons.

But that's just personal preference stuff. There could just as easily be a Baptist church next door and I wouldn't choose to be Baptist based only on that.
 
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~Anastasia~

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To me, the issues Matt mentions - how true which one is to the Church established by Christ, was key. And I'm sure he can do a better job of detailing that.

Further, as I have learned more, I see undertones of how we approach spirituality being affected by some doctrines that differ between us.

Among the most important of these for me are the more legalistic view of sin that Catholics have, paired with the idea of created grace (which makes it quantifiable).

It's VERY tempting, because it's comforting, I'm sure, to go to a priest for confession, to be given a quantified penance, and be told you are "forgiven". Of course we also go for the Sacrament of confession, and receive absolution. But I think with Catholics I get the idea of a slate being wiped clean over and over, with a dire fear (damnation) if you happen to die with the wrong kind of sin not yet forgiven by a priest.

In Orthodoxy, there is a purer understanding, IMO, of ourselves as fallen creatures, attempting with all the ways God offers us, to cooperate with His grace - His very energies - HIMSELF (in a sense) - in order to be transformed, restored to both the image and likeness of Christ, which was marred in the fall and through our sin. Simply - we are sick, and we need a spiritual Healer to make us well.

The Church has these medicines, tools, as well. There is far more understanding of spiritual guidance in a personal sense, I think. And comparing the fasting, as just one example. (One thing that almost made me not want to be Orthodox - again, that's a rather unimportant "personal preference" thing and not worth considering. Yet now that I really can't - I miss it more than you could know.)

Little things in that. Catholics can choose to "give something up" for Lent. Orthodox understand this is self-direction with its own pitfalls.

Other little things - Catholics are encouraged to visualize during prayer, things which excite the imagination and can lead to ecstasies. The Fathers understood this as dangerous and warn against it.

Such customs (I don't know if these are actual Catholic doctrine but seem to be?) that border on superstitious imo, such as wearing certain colors of scapulars? Either way they betray a certain "grace for favor" mindset that doesn't sit well with me.

There are good things in Catholicism. After all, we share a certain foundation. But those areas where we differ point me toward Orthodoxy (again, the bigger dogmas and developments are the more important - the papacy, papal infallibility, the immaculate conception, created grace, purgatory, the Filioque, etc. - these should be examined in a historical context).
 
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All4Christ

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To me, the issues Matt mentions - how true which one is to the Church established by Christ, was key. And I'm sure he can do a better job of detailing that.

Further, as I have learned more, I see undertones of how we approach spirituality being affected by some doctrines that differ between us.

Among the most important of these for me are the more legalistic view of sin that Catholics have, paired with the idea of created grace (which makes it quantifiable).

It's VERY tempting, because it's comforting, I'm sure, to go to a priest for confession, to be given a quantified penance, and be told you are "forgiven". Of course we also go for the Sacrament of confession, and receive absolution. But I think with Catholics I get the idea of a slate being wiped clean over and over, with a dire fear (damnation) if you happen to die with the wrong kind of sin not yet forgiven by a priest.

In Orthodoxy, there is a purer understanding, IMO, of ourselves as fallen creatures, attempting with all the ways God offers us, to cooperate with His grace - His very energies - HIMSELF (in a sense) - in order to be transformed, restored to both the image and likeness of Christ, which was marred in the fall and through our sin. Simply - we are sick, and we need a spiritual Healer to make us well.

The Church has these medicines, tools, as well. There is far more understanding of spiritual guidance in a personal sense, I think. And comparing the fasting, as just one example. (One thing that almost made me not want to be Orthodox - again, that's a rather unimportant "personal preference" thing and not worth considering. Yet now that I really can't - I miss it more than you could know.)

Little things in that. Catholics can choose to "give something up" for Lent. Orthodox understand this is self-direction with its own pitfalls.

Other little things - Catholics are encouraged to visualize during prayer, things which excite the imagination and can lead to ecstasies. The Fathers understood this as dangerous and warn against it.

Such customs (I don't know if these are actual Catholic doctrine but seem to be?) that border on superstitious imo, such as wearing certain colors of scapulars? Either way they betray a certain "grace for favor" mindset that doesn't sit well with me.

There are good things in Catholicism. After all, we share a certain foundation. But those areas where we differ point me toward Orthodoxy (again, the bigger dogmas and developments are the more important - the papacy, papal infallibility, the immaculate conception, created grace, purgatory, the Filioque, etc. - these should be examined in a historical context).
Created grace, original sin, the Theotokos as Mediator of all Graces...those are some big issues for me (beyond the basics of papal infallibility / ultimate authority, immaculate conception, etc). The foundation of what Grace is - that’s a big underpinning to a lot of our differences. I don’t think they are the most apparent reasons - but they do contribute to a lot of the more well-known differences.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Can you give some examples please? Thank you

just look at the two that caused the Schism: the role of the Pope and the Filioque. see how Rome has been unbelievably inconsistent and contradictory concerning both those points.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Created grace, original sin, the Theotokos as Mediator of all Graces...those are some big issues for me (beyond the basics of papal infallibility / ultimate authority, immaculate conception, etc). The foundation of what Grace is - that’s a big underpinning to a lot of our differences. I don’t think they are the most apparent reasons - but they do contribute to a lot of the more well-known differences.
Yes some of the Marian devotions and dogmas are high on my list too. Coming from largely evangelical Protestantism, it was very important to me to have a careful approach to such things.


But the various teachings about sin and grace are important to me too.

Not to mention the effects of having a single person (Pope) articulate and determine the faith. I think we can see in Scripture and history there is very good reason why the Church was established in a counciliar form. It safeguards truth in a way no single man can - not even St. Peter himself.
 
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Mary of Bethany

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Created grace, original sin, the Theotokos as Mediator of all Graces...those are some big issues for me (beyond the basics of papal infallibility / ultimate authority, immaculate conception, etc). The foundation of what Grace is - that’s a big underpinning to a lot of our differences. I don’t think they are the most apparent reasons - but they do contribute to a lot of the more well-known differences.

These are the most problematic for me. The different understanding of Grace creates a lot of differences, as well as the different understanding of Original Sin. Those two lead to a very different approach to salvation.
 
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All4Christ

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These are the most problematic for me. The different understanding of Grace creates a lot of differences, as well as the different understanding of Original Sin. Those two lead to a very different approach to salvation.
I believe these are some of the biggest differences from the early church as well.
 
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The two items that influenced me:
Filioque, defining who God is.
Original Sin/Ancestral Sin, which defines man's relationship with/to God.

Understanding the Orthodox teaching on these two items eliminated all of western Christianity for me. ymmv
 
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Netgear

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just look at the two that caused the Schism: the role of the Pope and the Filioque. see how Rome has been unbelievably inconsistent and contradictory concerning both those points.

Petty i would in the eyes of God.
 
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Netgear

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sorry, I don't follow...

I was just saying that i believe that in the eyes of God, the arguments or should i say differences would be petty in the eyes of God. God is probably more interested in other things than differences between two founding churches.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I was just saying that i believe that in the eyes of God, the arguments or should i say differences would be petty in the eyes of God. God is probably more interested in other things than differences between two founding churches.

With all due respect ...

I would think that it would matter to God whether one man was supposed to lead the entire Church and was free to change doctrine ...

Or whether the Church was under the care of councils of Bishops and did not accept changes to doctrine.

Whichever one you think is right, I'm surprised at the suggestion that it doesn't matter one way or the other to God?



I agree that on the surface, the Filioque can seem trivial, but taken the way it was originally intended, it does create a rather strange dynamic within the Holy Trinity. But that takes some study, and as Catholics sometimes now articulate the meaning, it is more acceptable in understanding -- if not for the question of whether only a part of the Church has the authority to simply change the essential definition of Christianity. But its original meaning was not a petty difference.

Though I'm not important enough for my opinion on such things to matter. I don't lead the Church. So in living my own life, I choose to accept Catholics as brothers and sisters and don't like to debate such matters. But in considering the doctrine itself, I think it's worth understanding the meaning and history and implications, and I certainly have opinions about the doctrines.
 
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