Catholics CAN'T Answer This Question!!!

[Arsenios]

I am done with you wasting my time.

Promises, Promises!!

My time is not nearly so valuable...
It is not wasted, for instance...
When I post to you!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

What is your wholly Divinely inspired infallible supreme standard?

THAT standard was so important, so crucial, in the New Testament Church, that it was actually RECORDED in Holy Writ so that even sinners like you and I could read it and understand it some two thousand years later, when we are reading mere VERSIONS of the ORIGINAL Bible, done up in all manner of foreign tongues of sinful flesh and blood...

The WHOLLY DIVINELY INSPIRED INFALLIBLE SUPREME STANDARD, I say!

But your premise is wrong, and hence so is your question...
WHAT is this STANDARD???
Nay, my Brother, not WHAT...
But WHO is that Standard?:

1Ti 3:15
"εαν δε βραδυνω
But if I should delay...

ινα ειδης πως δει
in order that you should know how

εν οικω θεου αναστρεφεσθαι
in the household of God to conduct one's self

ητις εστιν εκκλησια θεου ζωντος
which is the Ekklesia of the Living God

στυλος και εδραιωμα της αληθειας
the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth."

I cannot improve on this formulation by the Holy Apostle Paul to St. Timothy
The Ekklesia is the Body of Christ who is Her Head,
the Holy People of God,
and the Church is the Household of God,
and to no other is given the appellation:
"The Ground and the Pillar of the Truth",
for Christ is the Light and the Truth and the Way...

It is hard to kick against the goads...

Arsenios

 

[PeaceByJesus]

My Church IS the New Testament Church as the original Apostles established Her... The Eastern Orthodox Faith is the Faith Communion that gave you the New Testament... Mine happens to be the Church in Antioch, where the followers of Christ were first called Christians...

Do you know what they were called prior to Antioch being discipled by Paul?
I do not think it is mentioned in the Bible,
so you may want to reject it out of hand,
but the Followers of Christ prior to Antioch were called:
"The Followers of the Way..."

That Church, in which the Apostle Peter also served in his departure from persecutions by the Jews, later became one of the 5 major Apostolic Sees... Our Bible, you see, is the Greek Witness, of which you have but a VERSION...

The Woman at the Well had a name...
Do you know her name?
It was not written in the Bible, but it exists nonetheless...
Her name was Photini...
Do you know the name of the little child?
The one Christ took upon his knee?
"Permit the Children to come unto me..."
He became an Episkopos...
And was martyred in Rome...
In the circus, eaten by lions...
He wrote to the Churches enroute...
His name was Ignatius of Antioch...

What I am trying to slip into your understanding is this:

Christ did not FAIL to establish the Holy People of God on earth...

The Bible is a WITNESS of the Faith of that Holy People of God...
They are as a WHOLE [Kata Holon, Catholic] the Body of Christ...

Christ did not FAIL, you see, as you so insist that He did fail...
That He failed for 1500 years until the German Printing Presses came along...
And then lucky for us all, Luther also came along with a printed Bible...
And every man now can read for himself and determine for himself...
His very own private understanding of what the Bible says...

YOU, you see, claim I am denigrating and attacking the Bible...
Constantly do you shove that accusationin my face...
And you are right, if only by my sins in this life...
But the counter to this accusation of yours is more than triple...
For you are accusing God of failing to establish His Body upon the earth...
And that only now has the ingenuity of man...
The ingenuity inventing the printing presses...
Come to the rescue of God's failed attempt...

God did not fail...

And for YOU, my Brother, may I please be permitted to insist...
LOOK at the success of God for the first thousand years...
And THEN, looking at that success and explaining HOW it succeeded...
Show how Christianity today is superior in any way...
To that in the first, third and 9th centuries...

God did not fail until the printing presses saved His efforts...

Many of our greatest and miracle working Saints...
Could neither read noor write...
But they KNEW God...
Which is what Christianity is all about, or it is nothing...

Nothing but an anthropologist's "Belief System"
On a par with any other "belief system"...

Arsenios

Dream on. Genealogy does not establish validity of faith in the kingdom of God (Romans 2:28,29) while if being the magisterial stewards of Scriptures over the instruments of it meant such possessed ensured veracity and warranted unconditional assent then the NT church is invalidated.

And long before the printing press writing was manifest as being God's chosen most-reliable means of preservation of His authoritative word, for He did not fail to do so. (Exodus 17:14; 34:1,27; Deuteronomy 10:4; 17:18; 27:3; 31:24; Joshua 1:8; 2 Chronicles 34:15,18-19; Psalm 19:7-11; 119; John 20:31; Acts 17:11; Revelation 1:1; 20:12, 15; Matthew 4:5-7; 22:29; Luke 24:44,45; Acts 17:11)

And as abundantly evidenced that as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired substantive and assured Word of God.

Upon which the church was established, and which is never shown to be wholly pure or wholly Truth or the basis for the Truth or the infallible standard of it, but the support of the Truth with instruments of it (and even the writers of Holy Writ are subject to what God is the real author if) - despite your erroneous extrapolation of 1 Timothy 3:15,

Which has been substantiated before but you still engage in your fallacious reasoning, for all to see.

Now before you successfully provoke me to provide you with a warranted rebuke that can get me banned...
​

And the king went up into the house of the Lord, and all the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the priests, and the Levites, and all the people, great and small: and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant that was found in the house of the Lord. And the king stood in his place, and made a covenant before the Lord, to walk after the Lord, and to keep his commandments, and his testimonies, and his statutes, with all his heart, and with all his soul, to perform the words of the covenant which are written in this book. (2 Chronicles 34:30-31)​

 

[Vicomte13]

What is your wholly Divinely inspired infallible supreme standard?

None exists. You always have to use reason and care.

 

[Arsenios]

Dream on. Genealogy does not establish validity of faith in the kingdom of God (Romans 2:28,29) while if being the magisterial stewards of Scriptures over the instruments of it meant such possessed ensured veracity and warranted unconditional assent then the NT church is invalidated.

Well, it sure didn't under the Law of Moses, no question - But you cannot use OT Scripture to invalidate the New Testament Church...

And long before the printing press writing was manifest as being God's chosen most-reliable means of preservation of His authoritative word, for He did not fail to do so. (Exodus 17:14; 34:1,27; Deuteronomy 10:4; 17:18; 27:3; 31:24; Joshua 1:8; 2 Chronicles 34:15,18-19; Psalm 19:7-11; 119; John 20:31; Acts 17:11; Revelation 1:1; 20:12, 15; Matthew 4:5-7; 22:29; Luke 24:44,45; Acts 17:11)

There is no question concerning their value... But they have a Source, you see, and our Union with that Source is their object - eg As your Psalm verse affirms:
Ps. 19:11 "...in keeping of them there is great reward..."

You see, the Law was rarely kept, so that the "great reward", which is God Himself, was rarely attained, and in the OT, those who did attain God were the Prophets... But that all changed, you see, from the time of John the Baptist until now, for the Kingdom of Heaven is suffering violence... etc.

And Matt 4:5-7 simply shows that Satan used Scripture to [try, mind you.to] get Jesus to sin, and Jesus replied in kind, according to the "wiles of the enemy"... "Let them fall into their own nets"...

That is why I answer you from Scripture, because you believe in Scripture and only argue from it, "...and for the Sola's, I became as a Sola, becoming all things for all men, that I might save some..." Paraphrasing the Apostle... For which, of course, you accuse me of "resorting to Scripture" to prove my case! Lord have Mercy! Thereby proving that no good deed goes unpunished, I say!

And as abundantly evidenced that as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired substantive and assured Word of God.

Christ IS the Word of God, not Scripture... Scripture records God's WORDS...

Upon which the church was established,

The NT Church was established by God, Discipled by Christ-God, in obedience to God the Father, and empowered at Pentecost by God the Holy Spirit... Are we reading the Same Bible?

and which is never shown to be wholly pure or wholly Truth or the basis for the Truth or the infallible standard of it, but the support of the Truth with instruments of it (and even the writers of Holy Writ are subject to what God is the real author if) - despite your erroneous extrapolation of 1 Timothy 3:15 ,

You mean where the House of God is identified by the Apostle as the Ekklesia of God which is the Ground [eg your "sure foundation"] and the Pillar [eg open display and proclamation] of the Truth, which we all know as the Body of Christ, Who is the Head of His Own Body? Is that the passage I am so erroneous about? I have not seen you ever actually engage those words... Maybe I missed something?

Which has been substantiated before but you still engage in your fallacious reasoning, for all to see.

Pillars are there to be seen, no question...

Now before you successfully provoke me to provide you with a warranted rebuke that can get me banned...

Can you forgive me for provoking you with an understanding with which you simply disagree? I mean, it has a 2000 year pedigree, and much more than that, truth be known... Whereas your thesis that the Written is supreme, and not the God Who GAVE it to be written, is patently false on its face... eg Moses got the Written [in stones] FROM GOD, Who is VASTLY superior to both the stones and to Moses, and the Jews had to be shielded from Moses' holy face from that God-direct encounter... And THAT encounter is what Christians are discipled to attain in the New Testament Church... And the Written is a PART of that discipleship...​

And the king went up into the house of the Lord, and all the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the priests, and the Levites, and all the people, great and small: and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant that was found in the house of the Lord. And the king stood in his place, and made a covenant before the Lord, to walk after the Lord, and to keep his commandments, and his testimonies, and his statutes, with all his heart, and with all his soul, to perform the words of the covenant which are written in this book. (2 Chronicles 34:30-31)

​

The Law kept is a wonderful start, and needs the King to command it for the people...
Who can argue against that?
But the Law was only a tutor -
The written Law is not supreme over God...
We disciple people for God in obedience to Christ as members of His Body, the Church...
Christ discipled His disciples...
Christ did not disciple Scripture to His disciples...
He fulfilled those Scriptures...
And we are called to follow Him...

So don't get all in a huff now and get yourself banned by what you will doubtless regard as giving me a well earned and perhaps soul-shattering rebuke... Because I like you here, even if you think I am some kind of Satan incarnate, and speaking with you gives me great Joy... But the truth be known, all things bring great Joy to this old man, and I recognize in you a similar Joy, but one which is perhaps a tad too easily provoked...

Love is patient, Love is Kind, Love is not easily provoked...

Thank you for the kindness of your prayers...

And for the goodness of your aging heart...

Gravity is a grave matter, I say!

For He hath remembered that we are dust...

And besides, by my geriatric standards, you, at a youthful and spritely mere 65, are still just a young whipper-snapper!

Arsenios

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Well, it sure didn't under the Law of Moses, no question - But you cannot use OT Scripture to invalidate the New Testament Church...



There is no question concerning their value... But they have a Source, you see, and our Union with that Source is their object - eg As your Psalm verse affirms:
Ps. 19:11 "...in keeping of them there is great reward..."

You see, the Law was rarely kept, so that the "great reward", which is God Himself, was rarely attained, and in the OT, those who did attain God were the Prophets... But that all changed, you see, from the time of John the Baptist until now, for the Kingdom of Heaven is suffering violence... etc.

And Matt 4:5-7 simply shows that Satan used Scripture to [try, mind you.to] get Jesus to sin, and Jesus replied in kind, according to the "wiles of the enemy"... "Let them fall into their own nets"...

That is why I answer you from Scripture, because you believe in Scripture and only argue from it, "...and for the Sola's, I became as a Sola, becoming all things for all men, that I might save some..." Paraphrasing the Apostle... For which, of course, you accuse me of "resorting to Scripture" to prove my case! Lord have Mercy! Thereby proving that no good deed goes unpunished, I say!



Christ IS the Word of God, not Scripture... Scripture records God's WORDS...



The NT Church was established by God, Discipled by Christ-God, in obedience to God the Father, and empowered at Pentecost by God the Holy Spirit... Are we reading the Same Bible?



You mean where the House of God is identified by the Apostle as the Ekklesia of God which is the Ground [eg your "sure foundation"] and the Pillar [eg open display and proclamation] of the Truth, which we all know as the Body of Christ, Who is the Head of His Own Body? Is that the passage I am so erroneous about? I have not seen you ever actually engage those words... Maybe I missed something?



Pillars are there to be seen, no question...





Can you forgive me for provoking you with an understanding with which you simply disagree? I mean, it has a 2000 year pedigree, and much more than that, truth be known... Whereas your thesis that the Written is supreme, and not the God Who GAVE it to be written, is patently false on its face... eg Moses got the Written [in stones] FROM GOD, Who is VASTLY superior to both the stones and to Moses, and the Jews had to be shielded from Moses' holy face from that God-direct encounter... And THAT encounter is what Christians are discipled to attain in the New Testament Church... And the Written is a PART of that discipleship...​

​

The Law kept is a wonderful start, and needs the King to command it for the people...
Who can argue against that?
But the Law was only a tutor -
The written Law is not supreme over God...
We disciple people for God in obedience to Christ as members of His Body, the Church...
Christ discipled His disciples...
Christ did not disciple Scripture to His disciples...
He fulfilled those Scriptures...
And we are called to follow Him...

So don't get all in a huff now and get yourself banned by what you will doubtless regard as giving me a well earned and perhaps soul-shattering rebuke... Because I like you here, even if you think I am some kind of Satan incarnate, and speaking with you gives me great Joy... But the truth be known, all things bring great Joy to this old man, and I recognize in you a similar Joy, but one which is perhaps a tad too easily provoked...

Love is patient, Love is Kind, Love is not easily provoked...

Thank you for the kindness of your prayers...

And for the goodness of your aging heart...

Gravity is a grave matter, I say!

For He hath remembered that we are dust...

And besides, by my geriatric standards, you, at a youthful and spritely mere 65, are still just a young whipper-snapper!

Arsenios

You and your exaltation of your church (even Israel was a nation and royal priesthood and treated as His body and wife, but was subject to His word as supreme) and continued logical fallacies (God vs. His word etc.) and extensively refuted arguments are being ignored with no more than this, and will be as warranted.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

None exists. You always have to use reason and care.

So God who quoting Scripture, commands us as it is written, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God" (Matthew 4:4) and abundantly invoked Scripture as the authoritative word of God, which He exalts above the church or individual as being wholly inspired and alive and powerful and instrumentally salvific and equipping for every good work, (John 6:63; Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:15-17) and which is to dwell richly in believers, (Colossians 3:16) and by which man shall be judged, (John 12:48) does not provide a sure supreme source of that, by which Truth claims can be tested, or is the interpreter himself that sure supreme standard? Are you in a country without a Constitution simply because it can be interpreted?

 

[Major1]

Where in the Bible does the Bible state that the Bible is the Final Authority?



INSPIRED and USEFUL is hardly FINAL AUTHORITY...



This proves that God is the Final Authority, not the Bible... Because the Final Authority, God, CAUSED the Bible to be written by men...



This proves utterly and clearly that God is the Final Authority...
The Bible is not God's peer...

You complain that Latin Catholics make their Pope the Final Authority, and in that cause you now make a BOOK of paper and ink your Final Authority? I mean, are the STONES on which God inscribed the 10 Commandments the Final Authority?

Or is GOD the Final Authority?

I am having a hard time believing that I have to argue for this...

God, by His Incarnation, moved the arena of human salvation from the lifeless and cold stones of the Commandments and the Law into the living and fleshly warm hearts of real and living men and women walking this earth... And now you want to make the Holy Book of God Superior to God? And this when that Book itself tells all who will hear: "The Church is the Ground and the Pillar of the Truth - It is the Body of Christ Who is the Head of His Own Body."

I am not scandalized, exactly, but the whole idea is, after all, pretty crackers...

er... Make that TOTALLY crackers!

What makes it plausible is the fact that when one reads the Bible, God works through the Bible in the hearts of those who read and believe it... But the proper response is not to deify the Bible, but to glorify God, who needs no deification...

Mind you...

Lord have Mercy!

Arsenios

I agree. I find it implausible that you are arguing this case.

Isaiah 55:11.........
"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it."

This is 'absolute authority' speaking. There are no conditions attached, no restrictions and no limitations. This statement indicates the sovereignty of the One who spoke the Word and the absolute perfection of the Word spoken - it needs nothing added to it or taken from it. To the Believer, the Holy Bible is the 'Divinely Inspired' Word of God; the ultimate standard of measurement for Christian conduct, Church order and doctrine.

Psalms119:89.........
"Forever, O Lord, Thy Word is settled in heaven".

This is but another confirmation of the 'absolute authority', 'finality' and 'conclusiveness' of the Word of God. It is impossible for us to improve upon the Divine revelation contained within it's pages.

So perfect is His Word that God issued this warning in Deut. 4:2......
"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it,....."!

Forever, O Lord, Thy Word is settled in heaven. Psalms ll9:89.

Now to suggest that I or anyone else who accepts the Word of God as found in the Bible makes us IDOL Worshipers is very disingenuous. YOU are condemning Bible believers because they accept the Bible as the Word of God BUT on the other hand you are saying that the CHURCH is the final authority.

The church is made up of SINNERS and you are insisting that they are the ones to be believed and accepted over and above the Word of God.

That is why I can not believe you are arguing this point.

Just so that there are no misunderstanding on this point, your exact words were........
"And now you want to make the Holy Book of God Superior to God? "

NO ONE IS SAYING THAT. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT!!!!

It clearly needs to be established and understood that no one or no thing is equal to God. The Creator and Sustainer of the Universe is infinite in all of His glorious attributes. He alone is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.

The Son of God is the God - Man and He is God in the flesh the only accountable person never to sin as recorded in Hebrews 4:15. The one and only reason that we know those facts is because they are found IN THE WORD OF GOD!

It has always been wrong to attempt to put men, even Bible writers, the Bible or the Church on par with God. Only the wicked try to elevate themselves to the status of deity.

 

[Major1]

My Church IS the New Testament Church as the original Apostles established Her... The Eastern Orthodox Faith is the Faith Communion that gave you the New Testament... Mine happens to be the Church in Antioch, where the followers of Christ were first called Christians...

Do you know what they were called prior to Antioch being discipled by Paul?
I do not think it is mentioned in the Bible,
so you may want to reject it out of hand,
but the Followers of Christ prior to Antioch were called:
"The Followers of the Way..."

That Church, in which the Apostle Peter also served in his departure from persecutions by the Jews, later became one of the 5 major Apostolic Sees... Our Bible, you see, is the Greek Witness, of which you have but a VERSION...

The Woman at the Well had a name...
Do you know her name?
It was not written in the Bible, but it exists nonetheless...
Her name was Photini...
Do you know the name of the little child?
The one Christ took upon his knee?
"Permit the Children to come unto me..."
He became an Episkopos...
And was martyred in Rome...
In the circus, eaten by lions...
He wrote to the Churches enroute...
His name was Ignatius of Antioch...

What I am trying to slip into your understanding is this:

Christ did not FAIL to establish the Holy People of God on earth...

The Bible is a WITNESS of the Faith of that Holy People of God...
They are as a WHOLE [Kata Holon, Catholic] the Body of Christ...

Christ did not FAIL, you see, as you so insist that He did fail...
That He failed for 1500 years until the German Printing Presses came along...
And then lucky for us all, Luther also came along with a printed Bible...
And every man now can read for himself and determine for himself...
His very own private understanding of what the Bible says...

YOU, you see, claim I am denigrating and attacking the Bible...
Constantly do you shove that accusationin my face...
And you are right, if only by my sins in this life...
But the counter to this accusation of yours is more than triple...
For you are accusing God of failing to establish His Body upon the earth...
And that only now has the ingenuity of man...
The ingenuity inventing the printing presses...
Come to the rescue of God's failed attempt...

God did not fail...

And for YOU, my Brother, may I please be permitted to insist...
LOOK at the success of God for the first thousand years...
And THEN, looking at that success and explaining HOW it succeeded...
Show how Christianity today is superior in any way...
To that in the first, third and 9th centuries...

God did not fail until the printing presses saved His efforts...

Many of our greatest and miracle working Saints...
Could neither read noor write...
But they KNEW God...
Which is what Christianity is all about, or it is nothing...

Nothing but an anthropologist's "Belief System"
On a par with any other "belief system"...

Arsenios

Acts 22:4...........
"I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison".

 

[Major1]

None of those Scriptures comes even close to saying that the Bible is the final authority. They say that the Bible is an authority - nobody denies that. They do not say - they do not even suggest - that the Bible is the FINAL authority. You've cobbled together the primary tenet of your religion from spit and tissue paper, and it's false.

Since you're not going to repent of it, and I'm not going to ignore the error, it's best that we walk apart in peace. This difference cannot be reconciled.

I agree with you and I do not blame you at all. If I were you and had all my religious theology turned upside down I would cut and run too.

Merely to claim that Sacred Tradition is equal and in agreement with the Bible does not make it so. Furthermore, to assert that Sacred Tradition is equal to Scripture effectively leaves the canon wide open to doctrinal addition. Since the traditions of men change, then to use tradition as a determiner of spiritual truth would mean that over time new doctrines that are not in the Bible would be added, and that is exactly what has happened in Catholicism with doctrines such as purgatory, praying to Mary, indulgences, etc.

Furthermore, if they can use Sacred Tradition as a source for doctrines not explicit in the Bible, then why would the Mormons or JW's or even Muslims then be wrong for having additional revelation as well?

 

[Albion]

My Church IS the New Testament Church as the original Apostles established Her

Welcome to the club of people who like to say that. Over here we have Roman Catholics and over there Mormons, and of course there are the Landmarker Baptists. It's a diverse group but all bound together by their insistence that their own denomination is the one and only.

God did not fail until the printing presses saved His efforts...

Many of our greatest and miracle working Saints...
Could neither read noor write...
But they KNEW God...

I've read this line before, but surely you must know that the Bible books existed in antiquity irrespective of the number of people who were literate. Or do you?

I suppose you make your claim with the belief that Sola Scriptura means or requires that every last person read and understand the Bible from his own reading. It doesn't.

 

[Fidelibus]

The church is made up of SINNERS and you are insisting that they are the ones to be believed and accepted over and above the Word of God.

That is why I can not believe you are arguing this point.

Major1 makes an interesting point here. Didn't Jesus asks sinners (the Apostles) to serve him? After His resurrection, didn't Jesus appear to them and commissioned them to be his evangelizers? (Mk.16:15) And they obeyed. (Mk.16:20)

Maj.1 is correct in saying the Church is made up of "sinners" ......as were all the apostles. So is he (Maj1) suggesting or insisting that they too are not to be believed or we are not to accept their writings because of their sinfullness? If Maj.1 thinks we must judge by others by their conduct, then he better toss out his bible, because all its authors were sinners.

And he has a hard time believing or arguing the point? Very interesting!

 

[Arsenios]

I agree. I find it implausible that you are arguing this case.

Thank-you...

Isaiah 55:11.........
"So shall My Word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it."

Good - This is Holy Scripture recording that God is the supreme authority, and not Scripture...

This is 'absolute authority' speaking. There are no conditions attached, no restrictions and no limitations.

If only PBJ would be so clear as you are in these words...

This statement indicates the sovereignty of the One who spoke the Word and the absolute perfection of the Word spoken - it needs nothing added to it or taken from it.

Exactly!

To the Believer, the Holy Bible is the 'Divinely Inspired' Word of God;
the ultimate standard of measurement for Christian conduct, Church order and doctrine.

The Holy Bible is the WRITTEN, and the Holy Word is SPOKEN...

Psalms119:89.........
"Forever, O Lord, Thy Word is settled in heaven".

This is but another confirmation of the 'absolute authority', 'finality' and 'conclusiveness' of the Word of God.

No question at all...

It is impossible for us to improve upon the Divine revelation contained within it's pages.

Divine Revelation is not contained within its pages - It is REVEALED FROM its pages...

So perfect is His Word that God issued this warning in Deut. 4:2......
"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it,....."!

The same is said in Revelation... And rightly so... And this precisely because of the propensity of fallen man, and especialaly the Jews of ancient times, to misunderstand and ignore plain words from God to His Holy Ones who then write down for us what God commands... This is why they were given the Law from Moses and its enforcement... This is why we now, since Christ, have such a profound need for voluntary obedience within the Body of Christ... The involuntary foreshadows the voluntary... The visible the invisible... Enforced restraint by the external Law now fulfilled by the willful embracing of Christian virtue in turning from the world and unto God... "For against these there is no Law..."

Forever, O Lord, Thy Word is settled in heaven.

Psalms ll9:89.

The written Bible exists on earth, my Brother... And THAT Word comes forth from God Who also caused Isaiah to record:
"For My Thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways",
saith the LORD.

Now to suggest that I or anyone else who accepts the Word of God as found in the Bible makes us IDOL Worshipers is very disingenuous. YOU are condemning Bible believers because they accept the Bible as the Word of God BUT on the other hand you are saying that the CHURCH is the final authority.

My Brother, I am but exhorting those who are BIBLE BELIEVERS to believe God... The Bible - The WRITTEN word of God - Is ABOUT the Living Word of God, Jesus Christ, now sitting at the Right of the Most High in the Heavens... The Bible was written that THROUGH it we should encounter the Living God and be joined with Him... We cannot be joined with Him BY the Written Words of Holy Writ, but only THROUGH them BY God...

This is not all that mysterious, although it is a total Mystery, OK?

The church is made up of SINNERS and you are insisting that they are the ones to be believed and accepted over and above the Word of God.

I appreciate your efforts to avoid arbitrary Christianity by anchoring your Faith in a non-human yet divinely inspired Holy Book... God has richly blessed your efforts using that means... But it has unforseen consequences, and the utterly unavoidable one is the Supremacy of the Individual Understanding and interepretation of the meanings of the words being read, and the unavoidability of arguing with each other over who is right and who is wrong... Getting 3 Baptists in a room will get you three opinions on the meaning of any Scriptural pericope...

It is the worshipping Community that is the place to enquire for the sake of interpreting its own Holy Writ, and for Christians that worshipping Community has come down to us in the historical Body of Christ that gave us this Scripture... Scripture itself records that Christ is the Head of this His Body, and it is from this Body, the Ekklesia of God, and through this Body, Christ's Body, and by members of this Body, that wrote and preserved by God's Command, the very Bible which you so utterly and rightly revere...

That is why I can not believe you are arguing this point.

I can't either...

Just so that there are no misunderstanding on this point, your exact words were........
"And now you want to make the Holy Book of God Superior to God ? "

God is infinitely greater that the written words of Holy Writ...

NO ONE IS SAYING THAT. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT!!!!

Thank-you...

It clearly needs to be established and understood that no one or no thing is equal to God. The Creator and Sustainer of the Universe is infinite in all of His glorious attributes. He alone is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.

The Son of God is the God - Man and He is God in the flesh the only accountable person never to sin as recorded in Hebrews 4:15. The one and only reason that we know those facts is because they are found IN THE WORD OF GOD!

Thank you Major...

That is why, you may have noticed, that I did not accuse but asked the question, and was dumb-founded that I was having to argue it...

It has always been wrong to attempt to put men, even Bible writers, the Bible or the Church on par with God.

You are now call the Body of Jesus Christ Who is the Head of His Own Body, the Church, UNRELIABLE??
Do you agree that Christ came to establish His Holy People upon this earth?
And that the Ekklesia of God is the worshipping Community of the Christians He established?
And that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail over this Communith of the Faith of Jesus Christ?
That this Community is the Ground and the Pillar of the Truth?

Now I agree, that variously individuals within this Community can and have and will go "off the rails"...
That is why we hold to Holy Tradition rather that Patriarchal (or Papal) authority...
What has been believed at all times by all the faithful members of the Body of Christ...
An unbroken chain of 2000 years of the writings of the Church Fathers. beginning with the Bible...

Only the wicked try to elevate themselves to the status of deity.

And only individuals alone with Scripture can do so, which makes Sola Scriptura inherently wicked...

One of the things I appreciated in my approach to the EOC is the fact that Holy Tradition has already "ironed out" all the major wrinkles that have surfaced across 2000 years of Christian history, and that the myriad of questions I had developed in my private reading of Holy Writ had already been addressed by many holy men of God, and that there was a concensus of understanding across two millennia...

Anyway, thank-you for affirming the Primacy of God...

And not the primacy of Scripture...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Acts 22:4...........
"I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison".

Indeed it is this very Apostle Paul who ESTABLISHED the Church in Antioch over one winter...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Welcome to the club of people who like to say that. Over here we have Roman Catholics and over there Mormons, and of course there are the Landmarker Baptists. It's a diverse group but all bound together by their insistence that their own denomination is the one and only.

The Church at Antioch is pre-denominational...

Act 11:26 And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

I've read this line before, but surely you must know that the Bible books existed in antiquity irrespective of the number of people who were literate. Or do you?

They were called Scrolls, and were read TO the faithful...

I suppose you make your claim with the belief that Sola Scriptura means or requires that every last person read and understand the Bible from his own reading. It doesn't.

Then the consequent sins of those in obedience to the understandings of others will fall upon the others...

Which is why Paul preached Christ and Him Crucified to his faithful...

Holiness in conduct and persecutions inthe world...

The Christian Way...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Major1 makes an interesting point here. Didn't Jesus asks sinners (the Apostles) to serve him? After His resurrection, didn't Jesus appear to them and commissioned them to be his evangelizers? (Mk.16:15) And they obeyed. (Mk.16:20)

Maj.1 is correct in saying the Church is made up of "sinners" ......as were all the apostles. So is he (Maj1) suggesting or insisting that they too are not to be believed or we are not to accept their writings because of their sinfullness? If Maj.1 thinks we must judge by others by their conduct, then he better toss out his bible, because all its authors were sinners.

And he has a hard time believing or arguing the point? Very interesting!

One of the Great Mysteries of the Faith of Christ is the Presence of Grace in earthen vessels...

"Therefore be ye perfected, as your Father in Heaven is Perfect..."

Human flesh now sits at the Right of the Most High God...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I agree with you and I do not blame you at all. If I were you and had all my religious theology turned upside down I would cut and run too.

Merely to claim that Sacred Tradition is equal and in agreement with the Bible does not make it so. Furthermore, to assert that Sacred Tradition is equal to Scripture effectively leaves the canon wide open to doctrinal addition. Since the traditions of men change, then to use tradition as a determiner of spiritual truth would mean that over time new doctrines that are not in the Bible would be added, and that is exactly what has happened in Catholicism with doctrines such as purgatory, praying to Mary, indulgences, etc.

Furthermore, if they can use Sacred Tradition as a source for doctrines not explicit in the Bible, then why would the Mormons or JW's or even Muslims then be wrong for having additional revelation as well?

Bible-Alone cannot avoid IDIO-SYNCRATIC understanding...

That is why God established His Ekklesia upon this earth...

Foretold by the Prophet of Christ David:

"For I will partake of the cup of Salvation...
And CALL upon the Name of the Lord..."

This the Church has been doing consistently for 2000 years...

In persecutions...

Arsenios

 

[Vicomte13]

I agree with you and I do not blame you at all. If I were you and had all my religious theology turned upside down I would cut and run too.

Merely to claim that Sacred Tradition is equal and in agreement with the Bible does not make it so. Furthermore, to assert that Sacred Tradition is equal to Scripture effectively leaves the canon wide open to doctrinal addition. Since the traditions of men change, then to use tradition as a determiner of spiritual truth would mean that over time new doctrines that are not in the Bible would be added, and that is exactly what has happened in Catholicism with doctrines such as purgatory, praying to Mary, indulgences, etc.

Furthermore, if they can use Sacred Tradition as a source for doctrines not explicit in the Bible, then why would the Mormons or JW's or even Muslims then be wrong for having additional revelation as well?

 

[Vicomte13]

Believe what you choose. It is no ski off my nose.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Now to suggest that I or anyone else who accepts the Word of God as found in the Bible makes us IDOL Worshipers is very disingenuous. YOU are condemning Bible believers because they accept the Bible as the Word of God BUT on the other hand you are saying that the CHURCH is the final authority.

The church is made up of SINNERS and you are insisting that they are the ones to be believed and accepted over and above the Word of God.

That is why I can not believe you are arguing this point.

That did not make it into Ripley's, and I myself have clearly affirmed the supremacy of God - despite the apparent blindness of some to that as well as to their own illogic - while if we were follow the same logic that reasons that making the something on earth to be the supreme authority on Truth means they must be making this source Superior to God, then the church would be since Catholics make that the supreme authority, but which is nowhere ensured doctrinal infallibility.

Just so that there are no misunderstanding on this point, your exact words were........
"And now you want to make the Holy Book of God Superior to God? "
NO ONE IS SAYING THAT. NO ONE HAS SAID THAT!!!!
It clearly needs to be established and understood that no one or no thing is equal to God. The Creator and Sustainer of the Universe is infinite in all of His glorious attributes. He alone is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.

Which should know by now never to supreme as the conclusions of some. The error here is one of category, in God is supreme over all, and within the Godhead the Father is greater in position than the Son, but in terms of revelation, God has made His word the supreme authority on Truth, and has even magnified it above His name. And had made writing the chosen mean of preservation of it, including that of Christ, the express visible revelation of the person of God, come in the flesh.

Likewise, the Father has functionally made the Son Lord over all, who must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet,

The person of God and His pure revelation word go together right from the beginning, while the church needed perfection from its beginning, and fails to to express God in the purity or in the scope that His Scripture does, although the church is to be the closest manifestation of Christ in the flesh, not the Eucharist.

Reasoning that since sinners both penned Scripture and make up the church then the latter is are reliable as the former also fallacious, but the former refers to something already provided and which class is wholly inspired of God, while the latter (the church) is nowhere promised all it officially teaches is infallible, or wholly inspired of God. Instead, just as the NT church began with the historical magisterium being subject to reproof from Scripture as used by officially itinerant preachers, so it must bow to Scripture now, as being the assured word of God.

And it was those who were called Christians who manifested this, and not Catholic distinctives.

But as then, some refuse to see this.