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Featured Catholics CAN'T Answer This Question!!!

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by Tree of Life, Nov 25, 2017.

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  1. Arsenios

    Arsenios Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery, Supporter

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    So retired, I should guess, with Arthurian fingers, yes?

    I should be retired about a week after I depart this life...

    Then both...

    We share the same concerns and disdains...

    Actually, the argument was against hypocricy... For THAT is the killer of Churches... It is overcoming that keeps the Churches vibrant and alive... Without that overcoming, God will remove the lampstand...

    The Atheists martyred between 30 and 40 million Christians in Russia in the 20th century on our watch... More in that one century than in the entire previous history of the Christian Faith... And the social morals went out the window under them... Just as they are heading out the window in the US with our Faith anchors slipping...

    That once a year attendance is Pascha... [Easter]... The Passover [Pasach] of Death into Life, where the Blood of Christ effects the Salvation of man... Have you looked at the US? Exact stats are hard to find... I know the Orthodox Faith in the US is miniscule - Under a million, even though much more in Orthodox countries world-wide...



    That is a strange stat...

    Russia is in a recovery from atheist extermination of Christians lasting 80 years... And even through that extermination, 80% remained Orthodox but did not go to Church, as the Church itself was exterminated, and the clergy were co-opted by the Atheist on pain of death in the Gulag, and violated the privacy of confession, being agents of the atheistic state... Yet they stayed Orthodox in their manner of life, living the Orthodox Way as best they could outside the physical Churches... The Catacomb (underground) Church kept on, and suffered horrific persecutions... Russia is a Holy Land compared to the US which has never suffered any persecutions, but I suspect will in the decades to come... I thought they would start with Hillary's election, but God Trumped her efforts...

    Russia is WAY more a Christian nation than the US...

    Giving up one's life for what is Good and the Truth is a good thing to do...

    Arsenios
     
  2. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    Simple to answer: it’s not.
    Where in the Bible is the notion that the Bible is the final authority
     
  3. Vicomte13

    Vicomte13 Well-Known Member

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    Answer: It’s not.
     
  4. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Thus the "either/or" argument is invalid, while you ignore (or vainly try to counter) the actual issue, which is not that obedience to leadership is not Scriptural, but the conditional nature of it, that as in the statement you are responding to, Whether by hearing or reading, the Scriptures were the supreme standard for obedience and testing Truth claims, versus assent by the laity to whatever is taught, based upon the premise of ensured veracity of leadership.

    Therefore if you are going to attack wholly inspired Scripture as the supreme standard for obedience and testing Truth claims, then what you need to argue for is not simply general obedience to leadership, but assent by the laity to whatever is taught, based upon the premise of ensured veracity of leadership. Or whatever you hold as being the basis for implicit assent to leadership, and which necessarily excludes any validity of principled dissent.

    Perhaps you believe the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) warrants this.
    Actually, it is simply obedience within the Body of Christ to those who have "The Rule Over You"... Paul wrote about it in Hebrews:

    Heb_13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
    Heb_13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
    Heb_13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

    Who has the Rule OVER you, my Brother?[/QUOTE]
    Neither that or anywhere else in Scripture teaches required implicit obedience to whatever is taught - versus conditional submission - by leadership. You are thus avoiding the issue.

    It is this supreme status of Scripture that you reject and replace it with mere men, which - if they are to be supreme over Scripture and warrant implicit obedience to whatever is taught - must at least possess ensured veracity. Thus i must ask you once again what the basis is for their presumed protection from error. or whatever warrants the implicit unconditional obedience that your argue for? The alternative is to allow for principled dissent based upon a higher standard.

    As for me, that is actually irrelevant to the truth of the argument, but as said, I have a long record of being overall faithful to those had the oversight over me, as well accountable to leadership among us, but in which there were things in which I had to obey God rather than man (and other times when i should have).

    Now are you going to answer my critically relevant question or not?
     
  5. Arsenios

    Arsenios Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery, Supporter

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    My Brother, these very Scriptures are given to you by us... I am not attacking them... For you, I am showing you from them the foolishness of thinking that this Holy Book of God is God... It is a record of events of the People of God, and in the Gospels, of God Himself on earth and in the flesh...


    When a child is betrayed by its mother, that child will have a very hard time learning to trust mothers... The Reformation thought that the apostatic Latin Church was THE Church, and then this apostatic Church betrayed Her Own Children, in the arrogance of Her pride and power... So now, the re-establishment of the Rule of Love in the Ekklesia of God is very problematic... Once burned, twice shy, and the need for SOME supreme standard OTHER than the Ground and the Pillar of the Truth against which the Gates of Hell shall not prevail for an ENSURANCE of Salvation is transferred from Christ Himself in His Own Body, the Church, to something written in the Holy Book by which one can prove the Church wrong... It is this very 'proving' that is the camel being swallowed while straining the gnat of multitudinous arguments - eg the Latin Scholasticism of proving the Faith and its tenets by reference to Scripture interpreted under the so called AUTHORITY of Papal Headship of the Church... The result is that you wanted to use Scripture to defeat the Church, and in so doing you were tilting at windmills, because Rome has never been the jurisdictional ruler of the Church...

    Now the teaching of the Church to catechumens is not Theology, but repentance... Because the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the COMMAND for those who embrace it to enter into lifelong repentance, persevering to the end that they should be saved... And this is taught not by explaining the tenets, but by entering into the Mystery of the Faith unto purification of the heart in preparation for the Illumination of the purified heart upon emergence from the Baptismal Waters, and by the Gift of the Holy Spirit... And in this, those who have walked the talk then talk some of the walk with those who are learning to walk what is talked... And this, while not rocket science, requires teachers who know the walk, and Fathers, like the Apostle Paul, who can birth men into Christ through the Gospel of Repentance, knowing only Christ and Him Crucified, a teaching needing great Grace...

    So the matter does not stand on the premise that the Church is a sin-hole filled with evil men who teach false doctrines about unerring Biblical Truth who are the "Church Leadership" to which all must assent... That is crackers... Instead it is about people wanting to become freed from the slavery of sin and Godlessness approaching the Body of Christ to learn how to do so in repentance unto Baptism into Christ...


    I don't believe it at all... There are people who can get into positions of leadership that are mistaken, or wrong, or even evil, and sow all manner of psychodrama... We both have but to look to our own churches to know that is true... But Paul in Hebrews tells us to submit ourselves to those having the Rule over us, to obey them as having to give account for our souls... He does not tell us to get our hands on a Bible and study it before repentance and Baptism...

    Quote=PeaceByJesus]Neither that nor anywhere else in Scripture teaches required implicit obedience to whatever is taught - versus conditional submission - by leadership. You are thus avoiding the issue.[/quote]

    Then tell me, what do these passages mean? What exactly IS this "Rule over you" that Paul instructs us concerning remembrance, imitation, obedience, submission and salutation, who must give account for your soul? You accuse me of avoiding the issue, and assert "conditional submission", and you do so without ANY Biblical warrant which should come from Hebrews, had it existed...



    And that is what you understand by the Body of Christ Who is Her Head, the Ekklesia of God...
    Mere men...
    Which is also an easily demonstrable anti-Scriptural tenet born of betrayal by an apostatic Mother...

    I will answer you from Scripture, if you don't mind: The First Council at Jerusalem recorded in the Book of The Acts of the Apostles.... There was a false belief, that to become a Christian one had to first become a Jew, because Christ was a Jew born under the Law... And the Church convened and argued boisterously, came to agreement, and the first Patriarch of Jerusalem, Iakovos, made the Ruling and sent copies to all the Churches...

    That's Book!

    Arsenios
     
  6. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Which is so much prolix esoteric insubstantial sophistry in lieu of an actual argument. You attack Scripture as not being God, but esentially replace it with your church as being God. Neither are God in person, but only one is the wholly inspired revelation of God.

    You assert you gave us the Scriptures, which certainly is a surprise to the Jews to whom "were committed the oracles of God" (Romans 3:2) yet which does not make them the assuredly correct judges of it any more than it makes your church.

    =You minimize Scripture as "a record of events of the People of God, and in the Gospels, of God Himself on earth and in the flesh," while the very Scriptures say they, as the assured word of God, are more than that, as they are salvific, spirit and life, Even as "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes." (Psalms 19:7-8)

    Enlightening the eyes as to who and what God and man is, and revealing and convicting man of his need for salvation and how to be saved and how to please God, and equipping him to do so, "That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:17)

    And tells of Heaven and Hell, and as a sword defeats the enemy of our souls. "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Hebrews 4:12)

    Then with your typical either/or mentality, your instead assert "Now the teaching of the Church to catechumens is not Theology, but repentance," and of entering into "the Mystery of the Faith unto purification of the heart" and freedom from "the slavery of sin and Godlessness," as if that was opposed to this being what the study of Scripture materially enables with its "introduction in righteousness."

    Instead, you only speak of "teachers who know the walk, and Fathers, like the Apostle Paul, who can birth men into Christ through the Gospel of Repentance, knowing only Christ and Him Crucified," as if knowing what one is to repent from does not presuppose revelation of the word of God, which Scripture most assuredly is.

    And as if the Christ they knew was not that of Scripture, and who appealed to Scripture as substantiating His messiahship, and who opened their eyes to the very word of God which you minimize in scope and depth.

    And as if "knowing only Christ and Him Crucified" was opposed to all He wrote being revelation of what this means and requires, expressing what to "live is Christ" is about.
    It is no wonder you appeal to subjective esoteric knowledge, "direct revelation" as judged by your church to be so, as supreme.
    What it is with these constant either/or false dichotomies, as if a exhortation to submit to leadership is opposed to the laity doing what noble men did, searching the Scriptures whether these things were so, and whereby the laity can "prove all things," (1 Thessalonians 5:21) and "try the spirits whether they are of God," (1 John 4:1) and do what NT leadership did, which is that of subjecting the teaching of leadership to Scripture, which is how the church began? You think the apostles wanted the laity to make the same error that those who crucified Christ?

    For in contrast to the "we gave you the Bible, thus you should submit to all we say" argument, the church actually began in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses over Israel, (Mt. 23:2) who were the historical instruments and stewards of Scripture, "because that unto them were committed the oracles of God," (Rm. 3:2) to whom pertaineth" the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises" (Rm. 9:4) of Divine guidance, presence and perpetuation as they believed, (Gn. 12:2,3; 17:4,7,8; Ex. 19:5; Lv. 10:11; Dt. 4:31; 17:8-13; Ps, 11:4,9; Is. 41:10, Ps. 89:33,34; Jer. 7:23) </p>

    And instead they followed an itinerant Preacher whom the magisterium rejected, and whom the Messiah reproved by Scripture as being supreme, (Mark 7:2-16) and established His Truth claims upon scriptural substantiation in word and in power, as did the early church as it began upon this basis. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)

    And which is certainly not opposed to magisterial authority, but not as above Scripture as being assuredly True, while the authority of the NT church was under men of supreme Scriptural integrity "not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. (2 Co. 4:2) "in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God..." (2 Co. 6:4)

    Quote=PeaceByJesus]Neither that nor anywhere else in Scripture teaches required implicit obedience to whatever is taught - versus conditional submission - by leadership. You are thus avoiding the issue.[/quote]
    I am sorry. I did not think you were that unfamiliar with Scripture, for the conditional nature of obedience to man is clearly evident and well-established.

    In Romans 13 for instance, we have an even stronger expression of required obedience:

    Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. (Romans 13:1-5)

    Likewise,

    Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. (1 Peter 2:13-14)

    Taken by themselves, as you take Hebrews 13:17, this excludes the validity of any dissent, yet throughout Scripture we see God-fearing souls engaging in such. In Exodus 1 the "the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them [to kill the male Hebrew children], but saved the men children alive. (Exodus 1:17) And it came to pass, because the midwives feared God, that he made them houses. (Exodus 1:21)

    Likewise Daniel and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed–nego disobeyed the king due to the requirement which was contrary to obedience to God.

    Moreover, even though dissent from the supreme Hebrew magisterium was a capital crime, (Dt. 17:8-13) and the Lord upheld general obedience to that office, yet as said, they church began in dissent from them, following men who, in the eyes of those who say in the seat of Moses, had no valid authority. (Mark 11:27-33) But whom these itinerant preachers reproved based upon Scripture as being supreme. But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. (Acts 4:19) And thus they preached "that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures." (1 Corinthians 15:3-4)

    Thus rather than your ignorant assertion that "conditional submission", is "without ANY Biblical warrant which should come from Hebrews, had it existed," it clearly is taught (and more examples can be provided) while it is actually your required unconditional submission that is unscriptural.

    It is this supreme status of Scripture that you reject and replace it with mere men,
    All your assertions cannot overcome the manifest fact that the very gospel of the NT church - without which there would be no church - rested upon Paul, Scripture, being that "Which he [God] had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures," (Romans 1:1-2) which "is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith." (Romans 16:26) And thus souls validated what was preached from Scripture.
    Exactly, we know this from Scripture, and the judgment of James was Scripturally substantiated, and which the very gospel and the restrictions were, and which manner of substantiation was basis for the validation of this judgment, versus ensured magisterial veracity, thus requiring submission to whatever is taught by them and ipso facto invalidating the validity of any dissent. The council was neither teaching Roman purgatory nor praying to created beings in Heaven, or calling leadership “hiereus,” as a separate sacerdotal class, or such like Catholic distinctives, but were seeing Scripture fulfilled and affirming the evangelical gospel of faith purifying the heart in the washing of regeneration, (Acts 15:7-9) and providing Scripture-based disciplines.

    Thus rather than validating your form of sola ecclesia, the supreme status of Scripture remains, though as with SCOTUS, the judicial authority of powers that be remain for those under them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  7. Arsenios

    Arsenios Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery, Supporter

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    The issue I am presenting to you is that of fundamentality, not dichotomy - Which comes first and causes the second which in turn causes more... Reading Scripture is derived from having Scripture, which derives from a person writing scripture, which derives from someone having something to write that becomes a part of Scripture, which derives not from Scripture, but from God, and is gives to His Holy Ones... And their holiness is derived from God through living holy lives separated from evil, yet being tempted and overcoming or failing and further repenting...

    Do you not know that the crucifiers of Christ were the oh so literate and erudite Scribes and Pharisees? Whose job it was to read carefully all Scripture and argue it incessantly one with another, and who were all agog when a 12 year old kid addressed them from Knowledge? And that the Apostles were but simple men of God?

    Oh I am far more scumly in knowledge of the Bible than you, no question - I am very unfamiliar with Scripture compared to you... If I have caused you sorrow for this reason, I do not know how I can ease your angst... Would asking your forgiveness for my ignorance be beneficial? Or do you prefer sorrow?

    "

    Non-responsive - The question was: "WHO ARE these who HAVE the RULE over YOU who must give account for your soul?" You answer that they are the same as the worldly rulers in your quote?

    OK - It is now MY turn for sorrow! Likewise indeed!

    Do you really not know the diffeerence between worldly rulers and those appointed by the Apostles in obedience to Christ? I do not believe that for a New York second!

    That's right - The lowly, unlettered midwives disobeyed Pharoah the hater of God, and obeyed God, (and not the Scripture they were studying), instead of Pharoah the God-hater... Do you really co-equate "Them having the Rule over you" in Hebrews with God-hating Pharoah and worldly rulership???

    The rest of your post sure seems to affirm this idea... eg More "Likewise"...

    Where the Ekklesia of God is co-equated with God-haters and worldly rulers...

    Arsenios
     
  8. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Actually no, you have mainly engaged in either/or argumentation, faith in Scripture. versus faith in God, etc.
    That simply is you shooting your own foot, for the issue is submission to valid leadership which you only promoted as unconditional, and now you want to sanction dissent from it based upon their character? The Lord Himself enjoined obedience to them as siting in the seat of Moses, with the only dissent being sanctioned being when they or what they taught was contrary to the word of God, which is why the Lord reproved them from Scripture.
    Seeing as i exposed your ignorance thus your recourse is that of parody of my prefatory sarcasm.
    You should be sorry since once again the issue is obedience to leadership, with this being enjoined to both secular or religious. You have no argument unless you can show obedience is only enjoined to the latter, or that a class of the latter can require unequivocal submission. Whether it was me submitting to strict fundamental Baptist pastoral leadership for years, or with leadership among brethren, no where was this to be unequivocal submission.
    You mean how dare God enjoin obedience to God-hating emperors and worldly rulership, as well as those who sat in the seat of Moses. Perhaps you could realize that that basis for these warranting conditional disobedience was because their a supreme standard over them, which you reject as being over your church.

    Faced with the the fact that what is actually without any Scriptural teaching is unconditional submission to any leadership men, and that every kind of leadership is shown open to valid dissent based upon the higher standard of the word of God, then you are left to resort to your specious flailing and failing "argument by outrage," as if somehow your flowery leadership is above being subject to the supreme standard which the Lord reproved those who sat in the seat of Moses by, nor does your leadership even come close to the comprehensive attestation of the apostles as being of God, (2 Corinthians 6:4-10)

    Best to give it up.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  9. Arsenios

    Arsenios Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery, Supporter

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    Which is more fundamental: God or Scripture? Faith in God, or faith in Scripture? I believe both are profoundly good, but you believe that Scripture trumps God, because Jesus had to prove Himself with Scripture??? I really do not believe you think that...

    The Church simply disciples Christ to the faithful by repentance from sin and turning to God... Each person, in this effort, is actively denying the self, and embracing the Cross of suffering so as to overcome the world, as did Christ... And we are to follow Him, yes? And in this effort of overcoming sin in the race set before us which we are to run, the time will come when God will give us our personal Pentecost in purity of heart, and we will then become one with Him... God and man directly connected with no intermediaries... This is what the Church disciples... It is what the Church has always discipled... And when that happens, as it does indeed happen, man becomes divinized by/in God and he becomes a channel of Grace to all men... That IS Salvation in this life... And to do that, the enterprise takes far more than reading and studying books - It takes overcoming sin... And this is not done by the intellect and reading, but by taking up one's own cross and following Christ in suffereing...

    This is what Scripture means by saying we have the Mind of Christ...
    And it is from this vantage that we even CAN understand Scripture...
    Repentance is prior to understanding Theology...
    Theology is only known in union with God...
    Study from books is not Theology...

    God caused Scripture to be written for us...
    And God causes us to understand Scripture...

    Luk_24:45
    Then opened he their understanding,
    that they might understand the scriptures,


    Scripture does not cause us to understand Scripture.
    But the reading of Scripture is a beginning...
    And in old age, it is a comfort...

    Arsenios
     
  10. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Where did I say Jesus had to prove Himself with Scripture? I said He did, in the sense of substantiating His claims to men, and in rebuking false teaching and providing what is of God.
    Which mystical maturity (which i must seek) is not to be espoused without a solid basis for it, which foundation Scripture is as the only wholly inspired and substantial body of Divine Truth. Which, as written, became the standard for faith and obedience, which is the point here, not that souls are not to grow in grace.
    Once again you argue as if i argued for merely intellectual knowledge, rather than reading and studying books being consistent with not only overcoming sin, but of growing in the grace and knowledge of God, letting the word of Christ dwell in one richly, and being instruments of righteousness in confronting the world of sin with the claims of Christ, who died and rose according to the Scriptures, and reproving error... Enough with your strawmen and false dichotomies.
    Reading the words of Christ reveals the mind of Christ so you can have it as God reveals it, and works in the believer.
    Rather, you do not attain to this vantage except by obeying the light God already gave you, understanding the milk of the word and going on to the meat.
    Indeed, but Repentanceis grounded in Biblical Theology.
    Which union and theology comes by the revelation of the word of God, which Scripture most assuredly is. And the rest is details.
    Theology is not apart from the study from books, despite your exaltation of direct reveals based upon the ensured veracity of your church.
    ...
    What a contrivance. God substantiates His messiahship to the His disciples by the Scriptures, and opens up their understanding to it, and calls His word spirit and life, and what man is to live by, and more to be desire then even honey or gold, and a powerful revelatory two-edged sword, obedience to which is what brings great reward, yet with your exaltation of the esoteric, you marginalize it as merely being a beginning and a comfort for old men, while God says and shows that His word is far more than just your seminal kick starter and nursing home devo, while the infallible Orthodox (pick one) church is what warrants unconditional obedience.

    I never realized how cultic the Orthodox could be.

    I think we are done.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  11. Darrel Slugoski

    Darrel Slugoski Member Supporter

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    Good to be back i hope you had a great Christmas

    In the 16 Century Latin was a common/universal Language much as english is today and most people understood it . there were multiple languages at that time and Latin united the roman empire . Greek was another common language .

    At that time the Catholic Church read the full NT and OT ( except for genealogies ) in a three year cycle . The Orthodox Churches were also liturgical and did the same .

    The Bible at that time were hand written and were worth the price of a small car . They were changed in Catholic Churches and Libraries to prevent them from being stolen.

    When the printing press was invented the first copy of the Bible ( believe it or not ) was Catholic version and the first version of scripture in the vernacular was a Catholic version . ( Reference " Where We Got the Bible " Rt. Rev Henry G Graham )

    At that point of history illiteracy was common , but people would hear all of the Scripture at Mass . Or they could go to any university to read it .

    As Martin Luther said " without the Catholic Church we would have no knowledge of the scriptures " . Out Monks Catholic/Orthodox copied,( hand written scripture ) for 1500 years If you cn show me one official document from the Catholic/Orthodox church which denied scriptures to the faithful I would like to see it .
     
  12. Darrel Slugoski

    Darrel Slugoski Member Supporter

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    My sentiments exactly , but it is we RC would disagree with you regarding mimplication regarding the Roman Church .

    Arsenios I hope you had a great Christmas ( I dream of the day our Churches unite )
     
  13. Darrel Slugoski

    Darrel Slugoski Member Supporter

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    opps
     
  14. Darrel Slugoski

    Darrel Slugoski Member Supporter

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    AMEN AMEN AMEN I SAY
     
  15. Darrel Slugoski

    Darrel Slugoski Member Supporter

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    Scripture does not interpret itself . Were the first Christian Bishops Baptists, Lutherines , Catholic ,Orthodox , 7 Day Adventists .....................

    Just read the early Church Fathers , all of them ( which is not a impossible task - it took me 2 years ) and see if they had a consensus of understanding . Read the documents of the 7 Ecuminical Councils and see what they focused on . They evidence does not point to a divided Protestisim but a common share belief .

    The Orthodox and Rome have our own dispute as to who deviated from the path . But we share a common belief in many things . It is well documented and historically validated .

    The argument that there were different opinion amongst some early Church Fathers is true , but consenis was built and settled at the 7 Councils . The Council of Jerusalem in the book of Acts was our model . By reading these documents, you may find some disturbing Catholic/Orthodox things.

    You will not find such a consensus in Protestantism .
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  16. Darrel Slugoski

    Darrel Slugoski Member Supporter

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    The further you get from the reformation the more confusing/divided things get amongst Protestants , Pentecostals ........................................ . Martin Luther himself said " I tried to get rid of one pope and I created ten. " This is a historical quote . not made up . It is a reality your not willing to admit to .
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  17. Darrel Slugoski

    Darrel Slugoski Member Supporter

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    Depends on which cow they are getting their milk from . Whos truth ? Which Minister ? Which cow are they milking ?

    St Augustine 392 ad" the Catholic church is the work of divine providence achieved through, the prophecies of the prophets, through the incarnation and teaching of Christ through the journeys of the apostles, through the suffering , the crosses , the blood and death of the martyrs , through the the admirable lives of the saints ... when , then ,we see so much help on Gods part , so much progress and so much fruit ,Shall we hesitate to bury ourselves in the bosom of that Church ? For starting with the Apostolic chair down through the succession of Bishops ,even unto the open confession of all mankind , it has possessed the crown of teaching authority."

    This is not my quote He says some interesting things about Rome too .
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  18. Darrel Slugoski

    Darrel Slugoski Member Supporter

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    It seem the faith is not being passed on as we are seeing a over all decline of faith . That should worry all of us . Thats coming from a catholic . We are all being attacked . No more Christmas it is happy holidays , no nativity scene..... Preaching on the streets/ illegal ....
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  19. Darrel Slugoski

    Darrel Slugoski Member Supporter

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    Islam is the death of European culture . It is estimated ( forgot the year ) France will be majority muslim country . They are having more babies then everyone else . They are arriving in Europe in record numbers . Omar Kadafi said " we do not have to invade europe through military means we just have to have more babies then them ". Egypt , Syria , Lebanon were majority christian countries at one time . Be afraid , be very afraid . The crusades where a defensive war ( pilgrims were being attacked on their way to Jerusalem and Constantinople asked Rome to intervene ( and in all wars bad things happen , but the majority had good intentions and others were condemned by the bishop of Rome for the attack on our Orthodox brethren where he said , paraphrasing , ' no wonder they think we are dogs...') . In the dark ages ( before Protestantism ) the armies of Islam marched into France and it was the Catholic knights who pushed them out . Again another historical fact .
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  20. Darrel Slugoski

    Darrel Slugoski Member Supporter

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    i haven't had time to be on line or figure things out , but thank you for you past information God bless
     
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