Catholicism wrong?

[The Princess Bride]

That was the belief of the first Christians! Readn St Ignatius of Antioch or St Justin Martyr- they describe the early Christian worship of the 1st-2nd century and - guess what- it is the Catholic Mass! The Holy Sacrifice!

The greatest act of worship to God is the offering up of the Divine Son to the Father- surely no human worship can ever match that act Christ accomplished on the cross? And so the priest offers to God the Father the perfect sacrifice of Christ on the cross for the remission of our sins, the adoration of God, the asking of petitions and the thanksgiving for God's blessings.

The practices of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church are those from 33ad, this is the Church Christ founded- and it existed long before the New Testemant and long before any man-made "Christian sects" were founded.

We are not talking an indifference in worship and an "all are equally pleasing to God" attitude- NO THAT IS AN ERROR.
For If you reject that Church, the Catholic Church which Christ founded in full knowledge for some man made and man entertaining "church" with belifs contrary to those true beliefs of the Catholic Church - then you profit damnation upon yourself.

The matter is serious.
The Catholic Church is truth and is the continuation of Christ's mystical body in the world. Communion with the Church in this life brings eternal communion with Christ in the next. Reject the communion with Christ's body on earth (in full knowledge), the next life will echo that rejection for all eternity.

I say this not in anger or one-up-manship but in charity and it is true charity, for sharing the truth is always charitable to the other's soul.

Interesting arguement, but I am not moved to joining the Catholic Church, if that is what you are aiming at.

Although I do have one question about something you said,

And so the priest offers to God....

Does the priest offer this instead of you doing for yourself? Or on your behalf?

 

[Markh]

In fact, the priest actually acts in the person of Christ.

So it is Christ offering himself to the father in one sense.

But also, the faithful, with the priest offer the body of Christ up too and they unite all their prayers works joys and sufferings with that sacrifice for a specific intention.

so in a sense it is both.

 

[PolskiKrol]

I don't feel the spirit unless I sing vibrantly and clap, etc. with a shouting preacher.

Feel? Your whole faith life is based on feelings? Your going to run into trouble real fast if you base anything at all on feelings.

 

[The Princess Bride]

In fact, the priest actually acts in the person of Christ.

So it is Christ offering himself to the father in one sense.

But also, the faithful, with the priest offer the body of Christ up too and they unite all their prayers works joys and sufferings with that sacrifice for a specific intention.

so in a sense it is both.

I get what you are saying...but I dont quite understand it...

 

[Markh]

but I am not moved to joining the Catholic Church,

what would it take for you to become a Catholic?

ask yourself this in the spirit of humility.

 

[The Princess Bride]

Feel? Your whole faith life is based on feelings? Your going to run into trouble real fast if you base anything at all on feelings.

Yup, you are right on that on!

But I think he meant "sense" more than anything....

Some people have an easier time feeling/sensing God's presence with the loud worship/etc...

 

[Markh]

I get what you are saying...but I dont quite understand it...

from the catechism

1348 All gather together. Christians come together in one place for the Eucharistic assembly. At its head is Christ himself, the principal agent of the Eucharist. He is high priest of the New Covenant; it is he himself who presides invisibly over every Eucharistic celebration. It is in representing him that the bishop or priest acting in the person of Christ the head (in persona Christi capitis) presides over the assembly, speaks after the readings, receives the offerings, and says the Eucharistic Prayer. All have their own active parts to play in the celebration, each in his own way: readers, those who bring up the offerings, those who give communion, and the whole people whose "Amen" manifests their participation (in the offering of the sacrifice).

 

[FullyMT]

Yup, you are right on that on!

But I think he meant "sense" more than anything....

Some people have an easier time feeling/sensing God's presence with the loud worship/etc...

But it's still possible to feel/sense nothing during those...in fact, some Saints have gone through YEARS of not being able to sense God's presence, relying on faith and humility.

 

[The Princess Bride]

what would it take for you to become a Catholic?

ask yourself this in the spirit of humility.

I suppose a tangible reason why I would need to.

I know all my beliefs are not 100% godly, but I do know, that as I continue to align my life with God's word, and to His will, that He is perfecting my beliefs and convictions.

If He convicts me to join the Catholic Church, I will. However, at this moment in my life, I know God has called me to do children and youth ministry at a Non-Denominational church for this season.

I know I am saved, there is no doubt of that in my mind. Having grown up in the South aka "Bible belt" religious roots run deep. I dont mean my ancestors actually walking with Christ, but more or less getting caught in the "doings" of the religion, rather than the importance of the RELATIONSHIP. I am just concerned that by joining a particular denomination, I will get caught in the "religion over relationshi" mindset. Do you understand where I am coming from?

 

[The Princess Bride]

But it's still possible to feel/sense nothing during those...in fact, some Saints have gone through YEARS of not being able to sense God's presence, relying on faith and humility.

You are EXACTLY right.

God will not manifest His presence unless there is a real hunger and complete abandonment for Him to do it!

God gives us a taste of Himself, to keep us hungry and coming back to Him for more.

 

[FullyMT]

You are EXACTLY right.

God will not manifest His presence unless there is a real hunger and complete abandonment for Him to do it!

God gives us a taste of Himself, to keep us hungry and coming back to Him for more.

No, he does not want us to do things for Him for US, He wants us to do them for Him and for others. The Saints felt things, but then they did not. They kept serving for not for themselves, but because God asked them to.
We cannot truly love others (including God) if we are expecting something back.

 

[Markh]

I suppose a tangible reason why I would need to.

tangible meaning physical?

eucharistic miracles of bleeding hosts
http://biblia.com/jesusart/eucharistic.htm

incorrupt saints who haven't decayed for hundred of years
http://www.livingmiracles.net/Incorrupt.html

the apparitions of the blessed virgin
http://www.theworkofgod.org/Aparitns/Aparitns.htm

the miracles of great saints
http://members.aol.com/ccmail/phenomena.html

tangible meaning rational?
what about the testimonies of hundreds and hundreds of devout and intellegent protestant pastors who discovered Catholic truth http://www.chnetwork.org/converts.htm

If He convicts me to join the Catholic Church, I will.

That is good. He is trying.

I know I am saved, there is no doubt of that in my mind.

The Catholic Church rejects an idea of once saved always saved, it is a dangerous heresy as 1 mortal sin is enough to bring damnation on a person, and in fact, all Christians for at least the first 1600 years of Christianity belived salvation could be lost.

I am just concerned that by joining a particular denomination, I will get caught in the "religion over relationship"

I have already explained, the Catholic Church is a real and physical relationship with Christ on many many levels. It is the perfect interaction with the body of Christ! It is physical through the eucharist, it is intellectual through the magisterium, it is spiritual through prayer and meditation.

 

[The Princess Bride]

No, he does not want us to do things for Him for US, He wants us to do them for Him and for others. The Saints felt things, but then they did not. They kept serving for not for themselves, but because God asked them to.
We cannot truly love others (including God) if we are expecting something back.

You dont think God can use it to benefit both us and Him when we spend time with Him? If that is the case, how can we grow spiritually if we arent being fed by Him?
Didnt Jesus say He is the Bread of Life, and whoever ate of Him would never be hungry again? Isnt it the spiritual food that is important here?

God inhabits the praise of His people. When we are praising and spending time with Him and in His Word, doesnt He come to be among us and dwell within us?

 

[Carrye]

You dont think God can use it to benefit both us and Him when we spend time with Him?

Our worship does not benefit Him at all. If it does, then He is dependent upon us, and is no God at all.

Didnt Jesus say He is the Bread of Life, and whoever ate of Him would never be hungry again? Isnt it the spiritual food that is important here?

There is no division in God, and as such, the food that he gives for the spirit is food for the body as well. You can't feed one without the other.

 

[Markh]

God inhabits the praise of His people. When we are praising and spending time with Him and in His Word, doesnt He come to be among us and dwell within us?

In a certain sense that is true, but Christ did not just found a book for people to read- but rather, He founded a Church. He extended His mystical body across time and space so all people can interact with Him physically and spiritually.

Every protestant belives he is reading God's word and is inspired by the Holy Spirit, but the empirical reality is that this is false, as there are millions of different interpretations.

The bible should never be seperated from the Church. The Church alone has the authority to interporate the bible and to unfold the truth of Christ to the world, to reval Christ's infallible teachings explicitly.

The Church was doing this even before the Church had produced the bible, as the Church is apostolic, it teaches the teachings of the successors of the first 12 apostles those things they passed down aurally and in non-inspired writing.

 

[Lisa0315]

I have a question, and I mean this with all due respect.

Confessions to priests...What if that priest later turns out to be a very bad man? If he is acting in the capacity of Christ, but is in no way Christ-like himself, what happens to the sins you have confessed?

Again, please do not misundersand this question. We have pastors who are wolves in sheep clothing, who have committed the same crimes that some priests have committed.

Lisa

 

[Carrye]

Confessions to priests...What if that priest later turns out to be a very bad man? If he is acting in the capacity of Christ, but is in no way Christ-like himself, what happens to the sins you have confessed?

It's a very good question, Lisa. The holiness of the priest does not matter for the validity of the sacrament (whether or not your sins are forgiven). It is Christ who forgives sins, not the person of the priest. The priest could be the worst man who ever lived, and Christ will still use him to speak his words of forgiveness to the sinner.

 

[AureateDawn]

Wow.... all of this has flown high above my head. It is all very confusing, and each side present a valid argument...

One thing I must say I don't agree with regarding the Catholic Church, is once saved always saved. In many Bible verses it CLEARLY states this. Does this mean you get saved and still go around drinking and cussing? No, because you weren't truly saved. After you are truly saved, you become a new creature in God, and doing those things continually means you were not truly saved.

So if the Catholic Church believes that if you don't (correct me if I am wrong, I may have misinterpreted) confess every SINGLE sin, you are cursed to damnation, they're wrong. Once saved, always saved. I don't feel like hunting the verses up, because I am pressed on time, but there are numerous passages in the Bible where this is clearly stated.

 

[PolskiKrol]

Once saved, always saved.

God never takes away your free will. Once you're saved, you do not cease to have the option of sinning again.

 

[Carrye]

there are numerous passages in the Bible where this is clearly stated.

Are these what you're thinking of?

[BIBLE]Acts 16:31[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]Romans 10:9[/BIBLE]

What about?

[BIBLE]James 2:24-26[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]James 2:19[/BIBLE]

[BIBLE]Philippians 4:17[/BIBLE]