Catholic vs. Protestant: Justification

[Rick Otto]

I tend to think that NT Wright, overall, would call it a flawed question/distinction rather than side with imputation or infusion.

From what I have read of him (two books and a few articles), his stress is that New Creation starts now and that heaven and earth overlap in many ways.

Christianity isn't about doing good works or having proper faith to get to heaven. Christianity is about realizing the overlap between heaven and earth and furthering God's Kingdom on earth. That is the main point in his popular theology book Simply Christian.

I haven't read him but your summation of that work of his sounds like stuff I can chew, swallow & it agrees with me.

(...agrees with me) LOL. I employed that figure so I could put it that way

On the other hand, Rahner sound out of touch with reality.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Catholic Dude;On the surface I would agree with what you said, but I dont think we mean the same things.

I know what you mean. I noticed the same thing about us.

Catholics believe among the effects of the fall of Adam was that man was subject pain, suffering, physical death, and concupiscence (which is the urge to sin). God's plan of salvation includes reversing these effects, but He chose to have this occur when we receive our glorified bodies on the last day. These effects are not sin themselves, thus though they remain, dont determine whether our soul is righteous or not. If the Spirit is living in you your soul is righteous before God.

I agree with all that except that I'm not so sure Adam & Eve couldn't feel pain or suffer. Especialy the last sentence where HS residence in us makes us righteous before God, not actualy sinless, but effectively sinless("legal" sounds contentious).

Catholics believe we are "made righteous" through our unrighteous souls receiving the Spirit, making us righteous, and on these grounds are justified. Protestants believe justification does not change the status of the soul, but rather through imputation of Christ's Righteousness you can be considered righteous before God.

That sounds correct.

But the Bible clearly shows Christians turning to lives of sin (Corinthians and Galatians come to mind), thus "proving" justification or that you have "real faith" is no indication to others you are saved, or more importantly that you will do the good works God demands.

Good point. Justification isn't uniformlymanifested. Though we believe, unbelief can cohabitate with that.

My cards are on the table, Im not hiding anything here, go check out my two huge threads in the "soteriology" section that are still relatively new. Few, if any, have actually interacted with my main points in those threads, I cant even consider anything but Catholicism if I dont see compelling evidence to the contrary. I have studied both sides here and from the Biblical evidence I conclude the Catholic position has it right. On the other hand I see no such terms or concept as "righteousness of Christ" in Scripture, nor such a thing being imputed.

Did anyone try showing you those verses?
I thought you already agreed that it is His righteousness we are saved by, not our own, in the quote before the last where you say " Catholics believe we are "made righteous" through our unrighteous souls receiving the Spirit, making us righteous, and on these grounds are justified." (BTW, just a quibble but, lI would finish that sentence with "are saved", not "are justified").

You appear to be contradicting yourself, on one hand you say it isnt a sort of camouflage, yet it must cover you in such a way that you appear righteous though you are not infact righteous.

Agreed. I mean it isn't camoflaging to God's view. He sees both the sin & The Blood covering. Seeing His Son's blood is enough for Him to dismiss the condemnation on a believer, but even then we must suffer the loss & shame in seeing our own works "burn".

I understand the concept of imputation. What you say here and elsewhere confirms what I have already described, you believe man is considered righteous by God but in not actually righteous. Catholics call this a legal fiction at the very least least, a lie by God at most.

Law is a system that operates in the main on legal fictions for the sake of expediency vs paralysis.
A corporation is a legal, but fictional, entity. The sacrificial law being a means of salvation was a fiction because only Jesus could fulfill it.
A fiction is not necessarily a lie in the sense that lies are all bad (which they are not). We are not commanded not to lie. We are commanded not to lie against our neighbor. So as in this case, "lying" is the necessary & proper thing to do. I therefore find your objection based on a mischaracterization.

I disagree with all of what you just said. Imputed righteousness is not the only acceptable path, and next this was never about "our own" compared to Christ's, and lastly that it is about Jesus making us righteous not us making ourselves righteous of our own power.

I said "Imputed righteousness is the only acceptable kind. Our own is as filthy rags compared to Christ's.
What is illogical is thinking you are righteous & that your righteousness will gain you salvation."
Sorry, but I can see no basis for your disagreement.

There is clear Biblical testimony that salvation can be lost, so your only option is to ignore such references (eg Mat 18:25-32; Gal 5:19-21)

Traditional, consensual, private interpretations ignore scriptures that testify salvation cannot be lost by missing context & confusing terms by equating different terms. This is accomplished in Matt. 18:25-32 by equating loss or gain of rewards in heaven with loss or gain of salvation, & in Gal 5:19-21 by applying a purist's logical extreme that ignores grace & forgiveness of "murderers" like King David. The phrase "they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." obviously exists with contextual restrictions indicating it is talking about they which do such things without repentance.

All you are admitting is that God has to lie/pretend that you are righteous in order to save you.

And so He does. A mecy lie. Graceful pretenion. You say those words as if they were a bad thing. The truth is we don't deserve mecy, and if God didn't pretend we do, on the motivation of His Son's sacrifice, none of us would inherit the Kingdom.

There is no such thing as "legally cleansed" in the Gospel. Cleansing is first and foremost a quality of your soul, either it is clean when God looks at it, or it is not.

The Gospel is all about Christ's legal sacrifice legaly cleansing us. If it was only our Adam stained souls that God looks at & not the blood of His Son upon them, we would not be granted the legal status required for a decision in our favor.

 

[TraderJack]

Great topic, Im glad some Protestants are recognizing what the REAL issue is here between Protestants and Catholics. Justification means two irreconcilably different things to each of us.

Hmmmmmmmmm, none of the Protestants I know would say differently.

The doctrine of Justification is THE chasm that delineates Reformed Catholics from Roman Catholics.

 

[sunlover1]

I cant even consider anything but Catholicism if I dont see compelling evidence to the contrary. I have studied both sides here and from the Biblical evidence I conclude the Catholic position has it right. On the other hand I see no such terms or concept as "righteousness of Christ" in Scripture, nor such a thing being imputed.

It's the theme of the entire New Testament dude.
God made provision for us.

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof† the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And theira sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldnessb to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecratedc for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.​

† A Greek word occurs that is not directly translated in the King James Version.
Greek Strongs: 1161

a And their: some copies have, Then he said, And their

b boldness: or, liberty

c consecrated: or, new made

The goal for all of us is to hear God’s Word and live it. His Word will be our judge on the last day.

Make fun all you want. Did you read the verses?

(John 10:27) “The sheep that belong to me listen to my voice; I know them and they follow me.”

Do you belong to Jesus?
Have you heard his voice? Don’t use the lame excuse that the church is his voice. Remember Paul heard him.

He did say that His sheep hear His voice.

 

[chestertonrules]

Can we not derail the thread? This thread is about justification.

Is the possibility of predestination not central to the doctrine of justification?

 

[chestertonrules]

You can make that claim, but it is not accurate.

Predestination, by definition, makes us robots.

If we can only seek God if he makes us seek him, then we are powerless and we don't have a will.

Question:

If God desires that all men be saved, then why aren't all men saved?

Still waiting for an answer to this question:

If God desires that all men be saved, then why aren't all men saved?

 

[SpiritDriven]

Still waiting for an answer to this question:

If God desires that all men be saved, then why aren't all men saved?

They are not all saved...yet....

Gods plan for man has a few more eras to continue on Earth yet before we reach the point where every knee will bow and every tounge will confess Jesus is Lord....of their own free will too.

You see Christ will reign so well that he will do away with the need for it.....then Jesus hands the Kingdom over to the Father so that God can be all in all.

Its all there in the Bible....

 

[Giver]

Still waiting for an answer to this question:

If God desires that all men be saved, then why aren't all men saved?

God desires all men to be saved, but all men don’t want to be saved. God gave men a free will so all men won’t be saved.

(Matthew 20: “So the last shall be first and the first last: for many are called, but few chosen.

(Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

 

[Catholic Christian]

Is the possibility of predestination not central to the doctrine of justification?

Try reading this short article:

A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP
By JAMES AKIN
at
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp

 

[Giver]

God desires all men to be saved, but all men don’t want to be saved. God gave men a free will so all men won’t be saved.

(Matthew 20: “So the last shall be first and the first last: for many are called, but few chosen.

(Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

I needed to edit my above statement.

God may desire all people to be saved, but it could be all people don’t want to be saved. God gave us a free will.

 

[Rick Otto]

Is the possibility of predestination not central to the doctrine of justification?

I don't think so, bro. It IS a "core" issue in the constellation of variables that comprise soteriology, so it is related, but I think it deserves it's own consideration.
we both agree it is something that happens even if we disagree exactly what it is & how & why it happens.

If God desires that all men be saved, then why aren't all men saved?

All men are saved, but only in the sense & context within which this statement was made. The belief at the time was that salvation was for Isreal only (some men). Therefore, to say that all men are saved is to say not only Isreal is saved. It is similar to when the pharisees were complaining about John The Baptist, saying all Jerusalem goes out to see him. It doesn't mean each & every individual.

 

[chestertonrules]

Try reading this short article:

A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP
By JAMES AKIN
at
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp

Thanks, very informative.

I guess I am a Molinist.

 

[chestertonrules]

I don't think so, bro. It IS a "core" issue in the constellation of variables that comprise soteriology, so it is related, but I think it deserves it's own consideration.
we both agree it is something that happens even if we disagree exactly what it is & how & why it happens.

All men are saved, but only in the sense & context within which this statement was made. The belief at the time was that salvation was for Isreal only (some men). Therefore, to say that all men are saved is to say not only Isreal is saved. It is similar to when the pharisees were complaining about John The Baptist, saying all Jerusalem goes out to see him. It doesn't mean each & every individual.

That sounds like a stretch to me.

I think it is clear God wants ALL men to be saved. Through his Holy Spirit he calls to all men.

We, with free will, are left to choose to follow God, by seeking his grace, or to reject him.

 

[Rick Otto]

The fact that all men are not saved proves thinking that God wants each & every individual saved is the stretching of context.

 

[chestertonrules]

The fact that all men are not saved proves thinking that God wants each & every individual saved is the stretching of context.

Not at all.

I'm just reading the bible. God wants us to choose to follow him, but he won't make us.

Is that complicated?

 

[Catholic Christian]

The fact that all men are not saved proves thinking that God wants each & every individual saved is the stretching of context.

OF COURSE God wants all men to be saved. How could a loving God NOT want all men to be saved. I don't need to look that up in the Bible - that's just common sense, if one believes in a loving God.

The fact that all men ARE NOT saved is due to those men's refusal to receive the grace God has given them.

 

[Rick Otto]

chestertonrules;Not at all.

Yes, completely.

I'm just reading the bible. God wants us to choose to follow him, but he won't make us.
Is that complicated?

Rather a gross oversimplification, chez my fre'n.
We are completely disabled by Adam, to know or desire anything spiritual.
1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.We can only "choose to" believe once we are regenerated - born again. No one decides for themselves when they will be born in any sense.
Realy, it isn't even a choice to believe, it is the only option available to a spiritualy alive person. "Irresistable Grace" is the doctrine. Belief is like the first breath of a newborn infant. It is reflex.

 

[Giver]

Yes, completely.

Rather a gross oversimplification, chez my fre'n.
We are completely disabled by Adam, to know or desire anything spiritual.
1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.We can only "choose to" believe once we are regenerated - born again. No one decides for themselves when they will be born in any sense.
Realy, it isn't even a choice to believe, it is the only option available to a spiritualy alive person. "Irresistable Grace" is the doctrine. Belief is like the first breath of a newborn infant. It is reflex.

(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.”

 

[chestertonrules]

Yes, completely.

Rather a gross oversimplification, chez my fre'n.
We are completely disabled by Adam, to know or desire anything spiritual.
1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.We can only "choose to" believe once we are regenerated - born again. No one decides for themselves when they will be born in any sense.
Realy, it isn't even a choice to believe, it is the only option available to a spiritualy alive person. "Irresistable Grace" is the doctrine. Belief is like the first breath of a newborn infant. It is reflex.

Calvinist evasions, not scriptural.

God wants us to choose to follow him. He created free creatures in his image, not automatons with no will.

We need God's grace, but we are given a choice.

We know that man is capable of saying yes or no to God because it happens all the time. This is the way God DESIRED to make us, ie. in his image.

Luke 8:15

But as for the seed that fell on rich soil, they are the ones who, when they have heard the word, embrace it with a generous and good heart, and bear fruit THROUGH PERSEVERENCE.

and...

Luke 11:9-13

9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11 If a son asks for bread[a] from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=chestertonrules;Calvinist evasions, not scriptural.

Reforms of Roman revisions, a return of Christendom to Christianity.

God wants us to choose to follow him. He created free creatures in his image, not automatons with no will.

God is totaly sovereign by definition & always gets what He ultimately wants. A created will is by definition subordinate and can only be what it was created to be, even if that includes the delusion of a free will. Predestination doesn't negate will or personal responsibility, it sovereignly predestines it.

We need God's grace, but we are given a choice.

We are given many choices, all of which are predestined. Just because we don't know what they will be doesn't mean that God hasn't predestined them.

We know that man is capable of saying yes or no to God because it happens all the time. This is the way God DESIRED to make us, ie. in his image.

Even Calvinists know man is capable of saying yes or no to God, they simply lack the arrogance to deny scripture & think they are above God in determining the destiny of His creatures. You're thinking that predestination eliminates the will displays your ignorance of what Calvinism, or more specificaly, what predestination, is. You are railing against your idea of what we say, not against what we say.

Luke 8:15 But as for the seed that fell on rich soil, they are the ones who, when they have heard the word, embrace it with a generous and good heart, and bear fruit THROUGH PERSEVERENCE.

God given perseverence.

and... Luke 11:9 “So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11 If a son asks for bread[a] from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

Nobody knows or asks anything of the real Father unless He has gifted them with eternal life, enabling them to do so:
1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.