Catholic vs. Protestant: Justification

[simonthezealot]

Arguments from appeal to ridicule or mockery attacks are a well know fallacy. Description of Appeal to Ridicule


The Appeal to Ridicule is a fallacy in which ridicule or mockery is substituted for evidence in an "argument." This line of "reasoning" has the following form:

1. X, which is some form of ridicule is presented (typically directed at the claim).
2. Therefore claim C is false.

This is especially clear in the following example: "1+1=2!" "Ha, one plus one equals two is a joke!"
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because mocking a claim does not show that it is false.

This approach approach and is usually used as the last resort of one who have no substantial evidence for their point of view.

One should avoid logical fallacies in discussions, as it does not positively contribute to the discussion. A better approach is to select a particular point that you disagree with and present a substantive discussion.


Yours in Christ.

So instead of responding to what I went on to write you chose to ridicule me, you made a case for yourself.

 

[Catholic Christian]

So instead of responding to what I went on to write you chose to ridicule me, you made a case for yourself.

Now now simon: He who lives by the ridicule shall die by the ridicule. LOL.

 

[chestertonrules]

Salvation by faith alone is not biblical.

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

- Hebrews 12:14 "Strive for peace with all men and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."

- John 6:53-54 "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you have no life in you; he who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."


And I didn't even list James 2:24!

 

[Rhamiel]

Interesting OP, I will agree with how the OP described the Catholic view of Justification, once the others added that good works and faith do themselves come from Grace.

 

[Catholic Dude]

Justification is, without a doubt, the central issue in the Catholic-Protestant divide, even if we often get caught up in the lesser issues (papal infallibility, purgatory, Marian doctrines). Even the debate over Holy Communion cannot compare, as many on the Protestant side ally themselves with the Catholics in the real presence debate; no such exceptions exist when discussing justification.

Unfortunately, the debate is racked with oversimplifications. Far too often, it is cast as a debate of faith vs. works. This, of course, is not the case.

Great topic, Im glad some Protestants are recognizing what the REAL issue is here between Protestants and Catholics. Justification means two irreconcilably different things to each of us.

Rather, the debate is over: forensic justification though faith alone vs. process justification through faith and meritorious works.

More specifically the dispute is whether justification is by IMPUTATION of grace (Protestant) or by INFUSION of grace (Catholic).

The Protestant position is that justification (= making righteous) is an instantaneous event, whereby God himself proclaims the sinner legally righteous (forensic) solely on the basis of their possession of faith.

The phrase "making righteous" is misleading, if not simply incorrect. For Protestants nothing changes in the soul of the sinner during justification, thus you are not "made righteous" but rather counted/considered righteous.

Two important notes: First, authentic, saving faith, according to historic Protestants, is not merely intellectual assent (assensus). 'Mere belief' does not save us. Authentic, saving faith also includes fiducia, meaning faithfulness and trust, that consists in love for the content of faith, which of necessity inspires good works within us. Thus good works are not absent from the Protestant doctrine of justification, but automatically flow from it.

This is correct Protestant teaching...however it is plainly un-Biblical. Good works are never guaranteed, in fact we see Christians turning to lives of sin throught the NT (Gal 5:19-21; 2 Pt 1:9).

Second, it's important to note that God's declaration of righteousness happens because, as the sins of the person are legally credited to Christ, the holiness of Christ is legally credited (imputed) to the person in question (this is called double imputation).

This is correct Protestant doctrine, but neither of those imputation concepts are found in the Bible.

Thus, from the moment of conversion, the person is fully and completely righteous as Christ is fully and completely righteous. The process of sanctification, mirroring the Catholic process of justification in some respects, most continue after this to bring the sinner's actions into accord with the proclamation of justification.

And here is where the heart of the issue comes out, Catholics reject this Protestant claim on the simple fact it is a legal fiction. God is judging YOUR soul but is not really looking at it when he makes His judgment. Imputed righteousness can be seen like a righteous blanket which comes over your UNRIGHTEOUS soul and covers it making it APPEAR righteous on the outside and on this basis God declares you righteous.

Catholics totally reject that as un-Biblical and even blasphemous. God is essentially saying He cant save you unless He lies by considering you righteous when in fact you are not actually righteous.

But where justified sinners fall short in the process of sanctification, they can fall back on their imputed righteousness.

This is un-Biblical (Heb 12:14-15; Rev 21:27) and illogical. You are basically saying a person can fail in being made righteous but are still worthy of Heaven because of imputed righteousness.

Lutherans are in even bigger trouble than Reformed Protestants because Lutherans teach salvation can be lost through grave sin (which is a Biblical teaching). The problem here is that Lutherans with their views on Imputation already believe Christ got punished for their sins (a concept Catholics reject) and that through imputation they appear righteous regardless of the status of their soul. Thus if a Lutheran loses salvation and goes to hell God would be punishing them for what Christ already got punished for, a unjust and abominable double jeopardy, and somehow the imputation was able to be removed despite the fact it doesnt depend on the status of the person's soul.

The Catholic position is that justification is an extended process, which begins when the person first has faith, and then continues as the righteousness won by Christ on the cross is transfused into them both through the continued outpouring of God's love and as the believer merits additional righteousness through good works.

Basically correct. See my signature for an example of Abraham being justified multiple times in life (growing in righteousness). Gen 12 (Gal 3:8; Heb 11:8), Gen 15 (Rom 4:3); Gen 22 (James 2:21-24).

A corresponding note: The process of justification begins solely because the sinner processes saving faith. Moreover, the process continues solely because God continues to pour out his blessings on the person in question. Yet, and herein lies the crucial distinction, God, in his grace, has also allowed the works of the adopted sinner to contribute to the process. They are not required in the same sense as the law requires them of the unbeliever, but the person is called upon to contribute to their justification in cooperation with God. They are only able to do so because God is willing to view the works of his children as meritorious, as something that adds to what he accomplishes within them, but it does place much of the responsibility for completing the process on the shoulders of the adopted sinner.

The question now is do you reject the Catholic model because it sounds "too hard" or because it is un-Biblical? It looks to me you are rejecting it because it sounds hard and doesnt give you a guarantee of Heaven. The fact is when we are connected to the Vine we can and must bear good fruit (Jn 15:1-10; Gal 6:7-9; Rom 2:6-8).

I'll make an argument for the Protestant view in another post. But hopefully this will help clear up the issue so that we don't have insidious strawmen floating about. I hope Catholics feel I've done justice to their view.

Overall I think you did a good job of addressing the REAL issue.

Catholics basically see it like this: With the Protestant view God is declaring a soul to be righteous which IN FACT is actually unrighteous.
This is not how God operates (Mat 23:25-28) and the concepts of imputation are totally foreign to Scripture.
Being saved by grace means your soul is cleansed of unrighteousness, this is infused grace (Acts 15:9-11; 2 Thes 2:13).

 

[Catholic Dude]

Oh, I cant believe I didnt address this in my last post. But I want to drive home what Terry made clear. Justification is FIRST and FOREMOST about receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which makes us adopted sons of God and heirs of Heaven. This is the essence of infused grace. Once adopted as sons we are called to grow in His love.

The Protestant view of imputed grace puts the emphasis of justification in a merely legal realm, which is an incomplete picture and thus an incorrect final outlook.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

JDDJ is a joke ask the Missouri synod....
.

Arguments from appeal to ridicule or mockery attacks are a well know fallacy. Description of Appeal to Ridicule


The Appeal to Ridicule is a fallacy in which ridicule or mockery is substituted for evidence in an "argument." This line of "reasoning" has the following form:

1. X, which is some form of ridicule is presented (typically directed at the claim).
2. Therefore claim C is false.

This is especially clear in the following example: "1+1=2!" "Ha, one plus one equals two is a joke!"
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because mocking a claim does not show that it is false.

This approach approach and is usually used as the last resort of one who have no substantial evidence for their point of view.

One should avoid logical fallacies in discussions, as it does not positively contribute to the discussion. A better approach is to select a particular point that you disagree with and present a substantive discussion.

So instead of responding to what I went on to write you chose to ridicule me, you made a case for yourself.

Do you think the folks here can't read? I pointed out your error in Christian Charity, brother, hoping that you wouldn't repeat it. Your appeal to ridicule fallacy post and my reply is quoted above. I am honestly sorry that my efforts on your behalf have failed.

May the Lord bless and watch over you.

Your servant in Christ.

 

[Silenus]

This thread is a nice one to see because I have been working through some of these issues on my own and my curiosity has been increased after all the reformed noise being made over the federal vision, the new perspective on Paul, and N.T. Wright. I do have some feelings that the debate is over semantic distinctions between sanctification and justification, as mentioned before. However, at the same time, I also have suspicions that this is due to my misunderstanding of the catholic belief. Catholic dude, your post, I think, put it in some perspective for me. But I need to ask this question

And here is where the heart of the issue comes out, Catholics reject this Protestant claim on the simple fact it is a legal fiction. God is judging YOUR soul but is not really looking at it when he makes His judgment. Imputed righteousness can be seen like a righteous blanket which comes over your UNRIGHTEOUS soul and covers it making it APPEAR righteous on the outside and on this basis God declares you righteous.

Catholics totally reject that as un-Biblical and even blasphemous. God is essentially saying He can’t save you unless He lies by considering you righteous when in fact you are not actually righteous.

Then who can be declared righteous? It is obvious that everyone sins, even after salvation, both catholic and protestant. That even the infused catholic's life is not without sin. If it is our righteousness that is being judged, then we are still under the law. Isn't that the simple point? No matter the talk about the sacraments being works of grace, if someone still sins after salvation, they are judged for it and are not righteous.

And so, maybe this is where I misunderstand the catholic catechism . . . I am reading it without a catholic nearby to elucidate hard points, but it seems to me that this is how it works, correct me if I'm wrong.

A person is justified and declared sinless when baptized. His original sin is cleansed and he is righteous. If he sins after this, he loses his justification. To gain it back, he must undergo a work of grace, the sacrament of confession. When he confesses, his righteousness is given back . . .

I don't understand how this is any different than the imputated righteousness of the protestant. The righteousness received at baptism is not by works, it is due to the righteousness of God, it is the righeousness of Jesus infused ot imputed, its still not your righeousness, and the justification given through confession, again, is given in the same way, through the righteousness of Christ. How is this any less a "lie" as the protestant concept of imputation? Neither of these imputations and acts of justification is due to the righteousness of the sinner. At some point, there needs to be imputation and infusion and it seems clear that infusion does not erase sin in the Christian entirely.

Also, the OT baptism rituals clearly image imputation of our sins upon the sacrifice, as the sinner lays his hands on the head of the sacrifice, the sacrifice is then killed in his stead (imaging Christ’s perfect sacrifice). It seems the christian belief in the scripture is that our sins are put on christ and he is sacrifices to atone for our sins, we die with him, and then hios righeousness is given tous, we raise with him. Again, in both beliefs, isn't imputation eventually the case?

Also, I don’t see how any of the scriptures you cited contradict the protestant concept of justification. Could you elaborate?

 

[Catholic Dude]

This thread is a nice one to see because I have been working through some of these issues on my own and my curiosity has been increased after all the reformed noise being made over the federal vision, the new perspective on Paul, and N.T. Wright. I do have some feelings that the debate is over semantic distinctions between sanctification and justification, as mentioned before. However, at the same time, I also have suspicions that this is due to my misunderstanding of the catholic belief. Catholic dude, your post, I think, put it in some perspective for me. But I need to ask this question

The New Perspective on Paul in my opinion is of people like NT Wright basically concluding over their own Bible study what the Catholic Church has always taught (but that is another topic for another thread.)

I assure you this is not about semantics, there are clear distinctions that each side makes, especially over the issue of infusion of grace versus imputation of grace.

Then who can be declared righteous? It is obvious that everyone sins, even after salvation, both catholic and protestant. That even the infused catholic's life is not without sin. If it is our righteousness that is being judged, then we are still under the law. Isn't that the simple point? No matter the talk about the sacraments being works of grace, if someone still sins after salvation, they are judged for it and are not righteous.

You hit the nail on the head. THAT is precisely why there is a final judgment, because if we turn from our righteousness to grave sin (eg Gal 5:19-21) then we become unrighteous again and wont be saved (cf Eze 18:24).

We are not under the Mosaic Law at this point, but rather the standards that Jesus Himself set (eg Mat 5), the "law of Christ" (1 Cor 9:21).

And so, maybe this is where I misunderstand the catholic catechism . . . I am reading it without a catholic nearby to elucidate hard points, but it seems to me that this is how it works, correct me if I'm wrong.

You are basically correct in what you have said, though there is a lot more to talk about.

A person is justified and declared sinless when baptized. His original sin is cleansed and he is righteous. If he sins after this, he loses his justification. To gain it back, he must undergo a work of grace, the sacrament of confession. When he confesses, his righteousness is given back . .

Basically correct.

I don't understand how this is any different than the imputated righteousness of the protestant. The righteousness received at baptism is not by works, it is due to the righteousness of God, it is the righeousness of Jesus infused ot imputed, its still not your righeousness, and the justification given through confession, again, is given in the same way, through the righteousness of Christ. How is this any less a "lie" as the protestant concept of imputation? Neither of these imputations and acts of justification is due to the righteousness of the sinner. At some point, there needs to be imputation and infusion and it seems clear that infusion does not erase sin in the Christian entirely.

There is no "sin" in the Christian if he has repented, he has the urge to sin (traditionally called "concupiscence") but it is only sin and carries guilt when they give into temptation (James 1:13-15).

Infusion and Imputation are mutually exclusive terms. Picture our souls as dirty diapers. Infusion is equivalent to putting that dirty diaper in the wash so it becomes a clean garment again. Imputation is equivalent to wrapping that dirty diaper in a clean cloth and declaring that dirty diaper to be "clean" because the "outside" is clean, though the inside, the actual dirty diaper, is unchanged.

Also, the OT baptism rituals clearly image imputation of our sins upon the sacrifice, as the sinner lays his hands on the head of the sacrifice, the sacrifice is then killed in his stead (imaging Christ’s perfect sacrifice). It seems the christian belief in the scripture is that our sins are put on christ and he is sacrifices to atone for our sins, we die with him, and then hios righeousness is given tous, we raise with him. Again, in both beliefs, isn't imputation eventually the case?

No, the Protestant idea of the atonement is unBiblical. Basically Protestants believe Jesus took the punishment by God for the sins that the individual sinner deserved. This is blasphemy to a Catholic's ears. Jesus didnt get punished by the Father, nor is it justice for an innocent person to get punished while a guilty person goes free.

Here is an example I came up with of how Catholics see the atonement and how Protestants see it:

Lets say a group of kids crash the family car, the Father is upset about this and needs to spank the kids...but the mother steps in...

-Protestants would say the mother would have to receive the equivalent beating that the children deserved and thus the Father would be satisfied.

-Catholics on the other hand reject that notion because the Father could never act in such a way towards His wife. Rather, the wife stepped in and spent all day in a hot-sweaty kitchen to prepare the Father a nice multi-course home cooked meal. The Father was so pleased at this act that He in turn decided not to discipline the children, only requiring a simple apology.
​

It is important to note how each side sees the atonement. Catholics reject the "penal substitution" model which the Protestant idea of imputation is founded upon.

Also, I don’t see how any of the scriptures you cited contradict the protestant concept of justification. Could you elaborate?

You can start by explaining to me how Abraham was justified multiple times, while under the imputation model it can only occur once.

Here are three times when Abraham was justified:
Gen 12 (Gal 3:8; Heb 11:8), Gen 15 (Rom 4:3); Gen 22 (James 2:21-24)

After studying this issue I believe only the Catholic model of infusion of grace (being made righteous and growing in righteousness) can explain this.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

The New Perspective on Paul in my opinion is of people like NT Wright basically concluding over their own Bible study what the Catholic Church has always taught (but that is another topic for another thread.)

Then I suggest we begin that other thread, because I've actually read most of N.T. Wright's work and I've also skimmed through NPP's founding work, Paul and Palestinian Judaism by E.P. Sanders, and I totally disagree.

They certainly state that justification must be followed by works, and that double imputation doesn't happen (single only) or at least not according to Paul (Wright has specifically said that he's 'comfortable' with someone believing in double imputation if they can come up with a justification for on on the basis of texts other than 2 Cor 5:21), and that continuance within the covenant community, thought not in salvation, is dependent on good works, and even that salvation can be lost.

But there's nothing about justification being a process (in fact, he's very insistent that justification is instantaneous), and nothing about our works contributing to our growth in the faith (which for him is still sanctification).

Moreover, except for double imputation, his soteriology is just as Lutheran as it is Catholic, and even there the double imputation he rejects is more borne of Reformed thinking (wherein it is based on the above-mentioned passage, and wherein it happens in justification) than Lutheran thinking (wherein it is based on our very Catholic theology of baptism).

 

[Rick Otto]

That was a great OP, I realy appreciate Catholic Dude's excellent critique...
but for me there is still a confusion of terms in here.

I see salvation & justification and conversion being confused.
The OP mentioned "the moment of conversion" and I would assert that conversion is the long process of 'working out" (bring forth thru action) our salvation.

As I understand it, the touch of grace imputes the legal standing of righteousness and generates spiritual life to a spiritualy dead soul (regeneration).
Spiritual faith is a living thing which means it has appetite (desire) and motion (works).
Those works justify our salvation before men. God needs no justification for His own acts, because no one is His judge.

Dude,
Eze18:24 does not include grace as part of its equation and so doesn't address its role. Grace, election, and God's predestining determinate council are not on the table for consideration in a discussion of the author's intent in that verse. That had to wait God's own sacrifice.

Your wife-beater analogy falls short, because He did in fact deliver man's punishment upon His own entirely blameless Son. He took what He dishes out.

So saying Abraham was justified more than once does not equate to his being saved more than once. Justification only addresses man's perception of God's motive. Justification is evidence of conversion, a process started by the salvific act of regeneration.
Equating justification with salvation is misdirection.
Growing in righteuosness means converting behavior, not increasing righteousness. The righteousness of men & their behavior may be evidence of imputed divine righteousness, but it is never divine, never meritorious toward salvation. Only the imputed righteousness of Christ merits that.

So when a saved person begins to sin in a way contrary to justification, he may make a shipwreck of his justification, but his salvation never depended on him in the first place, so that isn't touched. Judgement awaits him & he will suffer loss of rewards in heaven, but not his imputed righteousness which depends soley on God's mercy, and not on man's performance.

Thanks fa lettin' me get that off my chest, guys.

 

[simonthezealot]

JDDJ is a joke ask the Missouri synod....
JDDJ does not settle the major disagreement between Lutheran and RC on justification.

Correspondingly, JDDJ fails to define clearly the word grace.
Happy to use the term “justification by grace,” the document
does not resolve the classic question whether such grace is God’s undeserved favor (Lutheran) or whether it is a spiritual power poured or “infused” into the soul that enables one to love Godand merit salvation (Roman Catholic).
Rome’s view of grace as infused stands at the base of its theology of justification as a process.
Although JDDJ uses the biblical phraseology “through
faith” or “by faith,” at critical points it speaks of justification “in
faith.” This new wording is ambiguous and allows for the Roman Catholic idea of infused grace. It does not clearly state that faith’s role in justification is exclusively to receive Christ’s benefits given to sinners by God in His grace. Therefore, it fails to make clear that the cause of justification is God’s saving work in Christ, not ourselves or anything in us.
JDDJ contains an expression of the Lutheran position that
original sin, which remains after baptism, is really sin. It also
includes the Roman Catholic view that original sin is eradicated
by baptism, and that the desire to sin that remains after baptism
is not really sin. JDDJ leaves this historic disagreement, like other disagreements mentioned above, unresolved.

Do you think the folks here can't read? I pointed out your error in Christian Charity, brother, hoping that you wouldn't repeat it. Your appeal to ridicule fallacy post and my reply is quoted above. I am honestly sorry that my efforts on your behalf have failed.

May the Lord bless and watch over you.

Your servant in Christ.

Don't misrepresent me, I shared why they think its a JOKE, see the copy in red.

 

[Catholic Christian]

ARTICLE 2: GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION
(from the Catechism Of The Catholic Church):
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm

(*For scripture referrences and other document referrences, go to above link.)

I. Justification

1987 - The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

1988 - Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:

[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.

1989 - The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man."

1990 - Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 - Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 - Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

1993 - Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.

1994 - Justification is the most excellent work of God's love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away." He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 - The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man," justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.

II. Grace

1996 - Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

1997 - Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 - This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.

1999 - The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.

2000 - Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 - The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.

2002 - God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.

2003 - Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit." Whatever their character—sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues—charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.

2004 - Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:

Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

2005 - Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord's words—"Thus you will know them by their fruits"57—reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"

III. Merit

You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.

2006 - The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 - With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 - The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 - Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life." The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."

2010 - Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 - The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm

(*For scripture referrences and other document referrences, go to above link.)

 

[chestertonrules]

ARTICLE 2: GRACE AND JUSTIFICATION
(from the Catechism Of The Catholic Church):
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm

(*For scripture referrences and other document referrences, go to above link.)

I. Justification

1987 - The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

1988 - Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:

[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.

1989 - The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man."

1990 - Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 - Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 - Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

1993 - Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.

1994 - Justification is the most excellent work of God's love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away." He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 - The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man," justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:

Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.

II. Grace

1996 - Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

1997 - Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 - This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.

1999 - The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.

2000 - Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 - The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.

2002 - God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:

If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.

2003 - Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit." Whatever their character—sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues—charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.

2004 - Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:

Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

2005 - Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved. However, according to the Lord's words—"Thus you will know them by their fruits"57—reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.

A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"

III. Merit

You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.

2006 - The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 - With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 - The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 - Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life." The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."

2010 - Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 - The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm

(*For scripture referrences and other document referrences, go to above link.)

I think it's inspiring after an intelligent debate like this to go to the catechism and find that these issues have been thoroughly investigated and concluded in a satisfying manner already!

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

I shared why they think its a JOKE, see the copy in red.

I'm sorry I didn't explain clearly. That is the fallacy of an apeal to ridicule. Let me give the example again:
1) I say "1 + 1 = 2"
2) respondant replies "one plus one is a JOKE!"

You see, that actually is the exact textbook example given in the textbook illustration of the appeal to ridicule. There is a very good book on logical fallacies. Nonsense: A Handbook of Logical Fallacies by Robert J. Gula. It's available on Amazon.

Grace and peace to you brother.

In Christ.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Catholic Dude;The phrase "making righteous" is misleading, if not simply incorrect. For Protestants nothing changes in the soul of the sinner during justification, thus you are not "made righteous" but rather counted/considered righteous.

Our character is changed thru maturing in faith. The sin nature remains resident in our physical being even tho regeneration provides a new living spirit.

This is correct Protestant teaching...however it is plainly un-Biblical. Good works are never guaranteed, in fact we see Christians turning to lives of sin throught the NT (Gal 5:19-21; 2 Pt 1:9).

Guarteed good works is not the assertion. The assertion is that good works flow from faith & prove (justify) the verity & veracity of that faith.

This is correct Protestant doctrine, but neither of those imputation concepts are found in the Bible.

Catholics are unable to see them.

And here is where the heart of the issue comes out, Catholics reject this Protestant claim on the simple fact it is a legal fiction. God is judging YOUR soul but is not really looking at it when he makes His judgment.

Sure He is. With mercy

Imputed righteousness can be seen like a righteous blanket which comes over your UNRIGHTEOUS soul and covers it making it APPEAR righteous on the outside and on this basis God declares you righteous.

The blanket of Christ's blood is righteous. It isn't camoflage. It is the only way a human ever appears righteous to God or gets declared righteous by God.

Catholics totally reject that as un-Biblical and even blasphemous. God is essentially saying He cant save you unless He lies by considering you righteous when in fact you are not actually righteous.

Fact is, we never are actually righteous. God is essentialy saying that even our best good works are not enough to make us righteous. It takes His merciful act of divine intervention for us to acquire that status legaly, not ficticiously. The status is based on that fact, not fiction. We know we still inhabit flesh corrupted by Adam.

This is un-Biblical (Heb 12:14-15; Rev 21:27) and illogical. You are basically saying a person can fail in being made righteous but are still worthy of Heaven because of imputed righteousness.

Imputed righteousness is the only acceptable kind. Our own is as filthy rags compared to Christ's.
What is illogical is thinking you are righteous & that your righteousness will gain you salvation.

Lutherans are in even bigger trouble than Reformed Protestants because Lutherans teach salvation can be lost through grave sin (which is a Biblical teaching). The problem here is that Lutherans with their views on Imputation already believe Christ got punished for their sins (a concept Catholics reject) and that through imputation they appear righteous regardless of the status of their soul. Thus if a Lutheran loses salvation and goes to hell God would be punishing them for what Christ already got punished for, a unjust and abominable double jeopardy, and somehow the imputation was able to be removed despite the fact it doesnt depend on the status of the person's soul.

I can't speak for Lutherans but you're right except for the part about salvation can be lost.

Quote:
The Catholic position is that justification is an extended process, which begins when the person first has faith, and then continues as the righteousness won by Christ on the cross is transfused into them both through the continued outpouring of God's love and as the believer merits additional righteousness through good works.

Basically correct. See my signature for an example of Abraham being justified multiple times in life (growing in righteousness). Gen 12 (Gal 3:8; Heb 11:8), Gen 15 (Rom 4:3); Gen 22 (James 2:21-24).

That's why you get accused of preaching another gospel, that of "works" - you earn & merit salvation rendering grace no longer grace, turning mercy into merit.

The question now is do you reject the Catholic model because it sounds "too hard" or because it is un-Biblical? It looks to me you are rejecting it because it sounds hard and doesnt give you a guarantee of Heaven. The fact is when we are connected to the Vine we can and must bear good fruit (Jn 15:1-10; Gal 6:7-9; Rom 2:6-8).

Not "too hard"... BIBLICALY IMPOSSIBLE.

Catholics basically see it like this: With the Protestant view God is declaring a soul to be righteous which IN FACT is actually unrighteous.

Again, that's why Prots are saved by mercy & Cats are saved by merit.

This is not how God operates (Mat 23:25-28) and the concepts of imputation are totally foreign to Scripture.
Being saved by grace means your soul is cleansed of unrighteousness, this is infused grace (Acts 15:9-11; 2 Thes 2:13).

Legaly cleansed. Your rap sheet is whited out by His blood. You don't lose your sin nature until you lose your body or it is glorified.

 

[Catholic Christian]

...good works flow from faith & prove (justify) the verity & veracity of that faith

How does free will fit into that? We are not robots: We do not "automaticaaly" do good works as a result of saving faith. It is an act of the will to DO those works. THAT is one (just one) reason why works are an integral part of salvation. God may give me the grace to do them, but it is an act of my will to actually DO them.

 

[simonthezealot]

How does free will fit into that? We are not robots: We do not "automaticaaly" do good works as a result of saving faith. It is an act of the will to DO those works. THAT is one (just one) reason why works are an integral part of salvation. Gos may give me the grace to do them, but it is an act of my will to actually DO them.

[SIZE=-1]Eph 2:10, For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them[/SIZE]

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=terryobrien80;

How does free will fit into that?

It doesn't. Great observation!

We are not robots: We do not "automaticaaly" do good works as a result of saving faith.

I agree. God's irresistable mercy is not "automatic". Saving faith only provides the motivation.

It is an act of the will to DO those works.

Agreed. But only a will mecifully regenerated by grace is motivated in that direction.

THAT is one (just one) reason why works are an integral part of salvation. Gos may give me the grace to do them, but it is an act of my will to actually DO them.

I agree. It is His will that you will to work good.Without His saving grace, you wouldn't be motivated.
You are either a willing slave to sin or a willing slave to God.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAe6-2bufBk

 

[Silenus]

I think Otto covered a lot of thoughts that I had regarding your reply, catholicdude, but I’d like to add some questions to the mix as I await your response. One is in regards to this quote . . .

There is no "sin" in the Christian if he has repented, he has the urge to sin (traditionally called "concupiscence") but it is only sin and carries guilt when they give into temptation (James 1:13-15).

Infusion and Imputation are mutually exclusive terms. Picture our souls as dirty diapers. Infusion is equivalent to putting that dirty diaper in the wash so it becomes a clean garment again. Imputation is equivalent to wrapping that dirty diaper in a clean cloth and declaring that dirty diaper to be "clean" because the "outside" is clean, though the inside, the actual dirty diaper, is unchanged.

But, still, that sin is removed because of Christ’s sacrifice is it not? At some point, we are given and judged with a righteousness that is not our own. In both theologies, at some point, God judges us according to the work of his son, not our own works. Also, if the inside is clean, then how is further sin possible. If the grace and righteousness is infused in us, how is it possible to fall short and sin at all? I guess how there can be any concupiscence if grace is infused. Unity is why we are not able to sin in heaven. How is an infusion of grace any different than this?

Again, I think our definitions may be different because I think your first diaper analogy fits imputation better than infusion. We receive the holy spirit but the “stain” of original sin remains and is slowly and cooperatively? Removed in sanctification.


Furthermore, how do you deal with the Greek words used in Rom 4:5 that pretty much seems to say that it was imputation . . . “it was reckoned as righteousness . . .”

Secondly,

No, the Protestant idea of the atonement is unbiblical. Basically Protestants believe Jesus took the punishment by God for the sins that the individual sinner deserved. This is blasphemy to a Catholic's ears. Jesus didn’t get punished by the Father, nor is it justice for an innocent person to get punished while a guilty person goes free.

How do you deal with the scripture that says that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins? Or that Jesus was made a curse? Protestants don’t believe that Jesus died so that we might live . . . we believe that Jesus dies so we might die and that he rose so that we also could rise with him. This seems obvious in the scriptures to me.

Anyway, thanks for the detailed response . . .

I’ll read the scriptures you gave me on the Abraham thing and get back to you