Catholic vs. Protestant – why is there so much animosity?"

[Blood Bought 1953]

The protestants you are referring to are wrong.


No, protestants follow man. They follow your Billy Bob friend, Luther, Henry VII, Calvin, White, the list goes on and on


Or the lack there of


If reason and someone's interpretation of scripture depart from the gospel message (heresy), then there must be a final authority outside ourselves. If not chaos (protestantism) results.


It is a safe zone. It's not as you intend as a backhanded insult, but it is a safe zone where we can be assured we do not stray into heresy.


Your first correct point, congrats.


Wrong again, and I had such hoppe for you


Ah, I see. I will decide what scripture means. I, I, I. I think you hit the nail on the head. You are all about "I "

Not familiar with Billy Bob....Jesus said to follow Paul,as Paul follows Christ.....good thing too! We all want to be saved,right? Paul saysthat hisGospel will save us. If we believe it....why not try that ?

 

[fhansen]

What did Christ and the NT writers use to establish truth claims?

Christ used Himself, His miracles and passion and death and Resurrection. He/they also referred to the OT. Not just anyone understood it though. His disciples, a member of the Church such as Philip when helping the Eunuch, were necessary in order to accurately explain the meaning since it wasn't at all readily understood just by a person reading it on their own.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Sadly, this is a misunderstanding of what the Catholic Church teaches. They teach, rather, that works are a part of faith. In other words, if you don't have works, you don't have faith, just as James says.

If that was all they meant then the Reformation was much a bunch of misunderstanding. For Luther himself rejected the idea that a faith which did not effect characteristic obedience was salvific, stating,

• faith is a living and an essential thing, which makes a new creature of man, changes his spirit...​
• Faith cannot help doing good works constantly...​
• if faith be true, it will break forth and bear fruit...​
• where there is no faith there also can be no good works; and conversely, that there is no faith.. where there are no good works. Therefore faith and good works should be so closely joined together that the essence of the entire Christian life consists in both.​
• if obedience and God’s commandments do not dominate you, then the work is not right, but damnable, surely the devil’s own doings, although it were even so great a work as to raise the dead...​
• if you continue in pride and lewdness, in greed and anger, and yet talk much of faith, St. Paul will come and say, 1 Cor. 4:20, look here my dear Sir, "the kingdom of God is not in word but in power." It requires life and action, and is not brought about by mere talk.​
• Works are necessary for salvation, but they do not cause salvation...​
• faith casts itself on God, and breaks forth and becomes certain through its works...​
• faith must be exercised, worked and polished; be purified by fire...​
• it is impossible for him who believes in Christ, as a just Savior, not to love and to do good. If, however, he does not do good nor love, it is sure that faith is not present...​
• where the works are absent, there is also no Christ...​
• Christ is the priest, all men are spiritual lepers because of unbelief; but when we come to faith in him he touches us With his hand, gives and lays upon us his merit and we become clean and whole without any merit on our part whatever. We are therefore to show our gratitude to him and acknowledge that we have not become pious by our own works, but through his grace, then our course will be right before God...​
• For if your heart is in the state of faith that you know your God has revealed himself to you to be so good and merciful, without thy merit, and purely gratuitously, while you were still his enemy and a child of eternal wrath; if you believe this, you cannot refrain from showing yourself so to your neighbor; and do all out of love to God and for the welfare of your neighbor.
  References by God's grace.​

But lets see where the misunderstanding resides: let me ask you if you believe salvation by grace is that of one being regenerated by ritual, without personal repentant faith;

and "by grace" rendering the subject to be formally justified by his/her own righteousness, and so at that point (it is conceded) the subject is thus fit to enter glory;

But since the sinful nature remains and sees its outworking, then the subject of this ritual usually must endure an indeterminate time in postmortem purifying torments to atone for sins he failed to sufficiently provide on earth, and also become actually good enough to enter Heaven.

And that one being justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God truly merits the attainment of eternal life itself, but which Catholics are expected to understand does not mean that their level of goodness and works has not actually obtained eternal life for them, outweighing the evil? Ask for substantiation if you want it.

Which is in contrast to faith by being accounted righteousness as Abraham was, (Gn. 15:6) which faith does purify the heart in the washing of regeneration, (Acts 15:7-9; Titus 3:5) which motivates and enables him to live accordingly as one who is positionally in Heaven, (Eph. 2:6) and awaits actually being there at death (Phil. 1:21-23) or the Lord's return, (1Ths. 4:17) though in his flesh dwells no good thing, (Rm. 6:18) and it is at death that he will surely cease to sin. (Rm. 6:7)

And with the obedience by the Spirit (which that effectual faith effects) justifying one as being a believer, and fit to be rewarded in the light of such. (Rv. 3:4) since true faith obtains recompense by God (Heb. 10:35) in recognition of the evidential fruit attesting its quality, (Mt. 25:31-40) though all things are of God, including the motivation and enablement to repent and believe and obey, leaving the only thing that man can and must take absolute credit for is his sins.

 

[fhansen]

Luke 12:49-50...............
“I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division.

He certainly didn't want division within His own Church.

 

[truefiction1]

PeaceByJesus said: ↑

That is so much esoteric ecclesiastical effluence as an argument, for 1 Corinthians 2 simply affirms the guidance of the Spirit, but does not establish one claimant as having it, including in a unique degree, and which every cult will claim. Instead, we are enjoined ot "try the spirits, whether they are of God," (1Jn. 4:1) and the means of doing by noble mean is by that which is written, and thus Scriptural substantiation in word and in power is what the Lord and His Church established their Truth claims upon thanks be to God.


No, that is not true, for you do not hold what is written to be the supreme standard but make your church itself to be that, thus Scripture cannot be allowed to contradict her. We Bible Christian havde been

Bible Christians are not a denomination though they may be part of one, but they have been "searching the Scripture whether these things be so" long enough to know that what the apostles preached was the word of God, and Catholic distinctives are not.

At least you all reject the Roman papacy, and most of you seem to reject her Purgatory, though RCs insist these are part of your authoritative Tradition, but you still hold to such novelties (as far as any believers in Scripture doing so) praying to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH). Test the spirits indeed.

We ask others who are created in God's image and likeness to pray to God for us. Yes, that is correct, including those who have died in Christ and are with Him now (Like the Apostle Paul, for example) (Philippians 1:21-24). We all pray to God, praying for one another, for the world, and being prayed for by all of those who Love God and have gone to be with God, and they Love us because they Love God, so we know that they always pray for us.

We are Bible Christians. We have been Bible Christians from the beginning until now. It is in our Holy Tradition to be this way. It is because we keep our Lord's sayings (in the Gospels) that the Holy Spirit resides in us and Christ is in our midst. We know what we worship. Salvation is of the Church.

 

[fhansen]

I really do not accept the idea of "pop-mythological" over real history.

Now if I am mistaken, PLEASE post the correct teaching from the Bible which is the Protestant authority so that when we, YOU and ME do a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or His apostles.

Please post from Scriptures In the New Testament, the mention of the papacy, worship/adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture.

If the early church was the Catholic church would not we all expect to see THOSE teaching somewhere in the writings of those who founded the early church????

What the Protestant believers will ask you to do is show them that if the origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church?

For what POSSIBLE reason have you determined that everything should be in Scripture when Scripture, itself, tells you that not everything is recorded in Scripture? For what POSSIBLE reason have you determined that Scripture was meant to serve as some sort of exhaustive catechism? For what POSSIBLE reason have you determined that the Church that received and proclaimed the message received by her at the beginning might not know more than you, picking up a bible some 2000 years later and proceeding to pontificate on its meaning?

For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine provided religious toleration with the Edict of Milan in AD 313, effectively lifting the ban on Christianity. Later, in AD 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicea in an attempt to unify Christianity.

Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices, so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism.
What is the origin of the Roman Catholic Church?

Amateur sensationalistic irresponsible speculation again. The Church became legal-just as most churches in the west are today- so what? It caused the unification of Europe in the Dark Ages, as well as possible during that time, the development of the educational system, the spread of Christianity, the same basic faith that my semi-literate grandmother from the foothills of the Italian Alps practiced. And I'd challenge anyone to have a stronger or more beautiful faith than hers. And Constantine didn't even necessarily get his way at Nicea; the bishops were allowed to do their thing-and they did. If the western (and eastern) Church later got too cozy with the civil governments of her day, perhaps naively assuming that God's kingdom was actually going to be realized on earth, there would be a hard lesson to learn there, during very different times. Many other such lessons would be experienced down through the centuries, but the elements of the faith, itself, would not change.

 

[PeaceB]

Haha......15 pages of the same old stuff. Went down the exact path the OP intended. Doesn't everyone ever get tired of the same old stuff?

Yeah. I need to find something better to do with my time than continuing with this nonsense.

 

[Tayla]

If that was all they meant then the Reformation was much a bunch of misunderstanding.

Yes, that's what it was, a misunderstanding. The Catholic Church in the Council of Trent did not accept any of the novel doctrines invented by Luther.

 

[truefiction1]

We must ask ourselves, "Why would anyone claiming to know and properly worship God be afraid, or refrain from asking God's saints to pray for them?"

The answer, even if presented in the guise of logical reasoning based on Scripture and thoughtful theology, boils down to two basic truths: Such people don't really know the glory of the True God, not having become like God, and, they do not really know what human beings are capable of when they themselves also have become like God. They don't know these things because they don't have God in them to a large enough degree, and so they don't understand the Scriptures which clearly point to all of these things.

We ask saints to pray for us because it has been revealed to faithful sons and daughters of God in the Church, throughout the history of the Church, that the prayers of the saints are indeed very "powerful in their effects" (James 5:16). I have seen and bear witness to this power myself. So it is as I said earlier, "we know what we worship". This is not possible unless we too are become like that which we worship -- God. Only those who have themselves become partakers of the glory of the Divine nature can know that glory (2 Peter 1:4). This glory comes into us by the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:18).

 

[PeaceByJesus]

We ask others who are created in God's image and likeness to pray to God for us. Yes, that is correct, including those who have died in Christ and are with Him now (Like the Apostle Paul, for example) (Philippians 1:21-24). We all pray to God, praying for one another, for the world, and being prayed for by all of those who Love God and have gone to be with God, and they Love us because they Love God, so we know that they always pray for us.

We are Bible Christians. We have been Bible Christians from the beginning until now. It is in our Holy Tradition to be this way. It is because we keep our Lord's sayings (in the Gospels) that the Holy Spirit resides in us and Christ is in our midst. We know what we worship. Salvation is of the Church.

Which is mere insolent pompous profession, as it is with your Roman competitor for these claims. You claim to be Bible Christians yet rather than what Scripture teaches necessarily being the basis for belief, and lacking apostles who preach as wholly inspired of God, yet you hold to praying to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH) which is nowhere exampled or taught in Scripture, despite,

1. This not being an issue that would need to rely on attempted support based on extrapolation from principle, as instead, prayer is such a basic common practice that the Holy Spirit inspired over 200 prayers which the Holy Spirit inspired in Scripture, yet there is not one single prayer by any believer addressed to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord (that souls prayed to the Lord Jesus (Acts 7:59; 1Co. 1:2) is a testament to His deity).
2. There always being plenty of created beings in Heaven to pray to.
3. Instructions on how to pray specifying *our Father who art in Heaven,* not *our mother* or anyone else but the Lord.
   
4. And to which Father the Spirit within true believers cries, *Abba,Father,* (Gal. 4:6) not, *mama, Mother.*
   
5. Only pagans are shown making intercession to created beings in a heaven from earth.
   
6. Christ is being declared as for the only heavenly intercessor btwn God and man. (1Tim. 2:5)
7. The entire book of Hebrews not saying a word about PTCBIH, despite its theme being on the superior nature of the new covenant, and the believers access in prayer, and intercessory Heavenly work, and instead only Christ is set for the as intercessor, and uniquely able to enable souls to endure and overcome, (Heb. 2:14-18; 4:14-16) by whom believers have direct access into the holy of holies to meet with God. (Heb. 7:25; 10:19)
8. Many examples of interaction btwn angels and man, in which, unlike with God for whom boundaries are no restriction, personal two-way communication between created beings always required both to be in the same place, even if via a vision, versus hearing and answering prayers from Heaven that were addressed to them.
9. Only God being shown having the ability to hear from Heaven the multitudinous prayers of souls on earth.
10. Elders and angels offering up prayers as a one-time memorial before the judgment of the earth (Rv. 5:8; 8:3-5) not being that of them being prayed to.
11. An absence of full correspondence btwn earthly relations and those btwn created beings in each realms, thus PTCBIH and them hearing and answering mental prayers from earth addressed to them in Heaven.
    
12. You do not establish a doctrine based on what God could enable or the absence of an explicit command against it.

You all are about as much "Bible Christians" as Christian Scientists are Christian Scientists.

 

[truefiction1]

Which is mere insolent pompous profession, as it is with your Roman competitor for these claims. You claim to be Bible Christians yet rather than what Scripture teaches necessarily being the basis for belief, and lacking apostles who preach as wholly inspired of God, yet you hold to praying to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH) which is nowhere exampled or taught in Scripture, despite,

1. This not being an issue that would need to rely on attempted support based on extrapolation from principle, as instead, prayer is such a basic common practice that the Holy Spirit inspired over 200 prayers which the Holy Spirit inspired in Scripture, yet there is not one single prayer by any believer addressed to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord (that souls prayed to the Lord Jesus (Acts 7:59; 1Co. 1:2) is a testament to His deity).
2. There always being plenty of created beings in Heaven to pray to.
3. Instructions on how to pray specifying *our Father who art in Heaven,* not *our mother.*
4. And to which Father the Spirit within true believers cries, *Abba,Father,* (Gal. 4:6) not, *mama, Mother.*
   
5. Christ is being declared as for the only heavenly intercessor btwn God and man. (1Tim. 2:5)
6. The entire book of Hebrews not saying a word about PTCBIH, despite its theme being on the superior nature of the new covenant, and the believers access in prayer, and intercessory Heavenly work, and instead only Christ is set for the as intercessor, and uniquely able to enable souls to endure and overcome, (Heb. 2:14-18; 4:14-16) by whom believers have direct access into the holy of holies to meet with God. (Heb. 7:25; 10:19)
7. Many examples of interaction btwn angels and man, in which, unlike with God for whom boundaries are no restriction, personal two-way communication between created beings always required both to be in the same place, even if via a vision, versus hearing and answering prayers from Heaven that were addressed to them.
8. Only God being shown having the ability to hear from Heaven the multitudinous prayers of souls on earth.
9. Elders and angels offering up prayers as a one-time memorial before the judgment of the earth (Rv. 5:8; 8:3-5) not being that of them being prayed to.
10. An absence of full correspondence btwn earthly relations and those btwn created beings in each realms, thus PTCBIH and them hearing and answering mental prayers from earth addressed to them in Heaven.
    
11. You not establish a doctrine based on what God could enable or the absence of an explicit command against it.

You all are about as much "Bible Christians" as Christian Scientists are Christian Scientists.

Post #313 speaks to your position.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Which is mere insolent pompous profession, as it is with your Roman competitor for these claims. You claim to be Bible Christians yet rather than what Scripture teaches necessarily being the basis for belief, and lacking apostles who preach as wholly inspired of God, yet you hold to praying to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH) which is nowhere exampled or taught in Scripture, despite,

1. This not being an issue that would need to rely on attempted support based on extrapolation from principle, as instead, prayer is such a basic common practice that the Holy Spirit inspired over 200 prayers which the Holy Spirit inspired in Scripture, yet there is not one single prayer by any believer addressed to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord (that souls prayed to the Lord Jesus (Acts 7:59; 1Co. 1:2) is a testament to His deity).
2. There always being plenty of created beings in Heaven to pray to.
3. Instructions on how to pray specifying *our Father who art in Heaven,* not *our mother.*
4. And to which Father the Spirit within true believers cries, *Abba,Father,* (Gal. 4:6) not, *mama, Mother.*
   
5. Christ is being declared as for the only heavenly intercessor btwn God and man. (1Tim. 2:5)
6. The entire book of Hebrews not saying a word about PTCBIH, despite its theme being on the superior nature of the new covenant, and the believers access in prayer, and intercessory Heavenly work, and instead only Christ is set for the as intercessor, and uniquely able to enable souls to endure and overcome, (Heb. 2:14-18; 4:14-16) by whom believers have direct access into the holy of holies to meet with God. (Heb. 7:25; 10:19)
7. Many examples of interaction btwn angels and man, in which, unlike with God for whom boundaries are no restriction, personal two-way communication between created beings always required both to be in the same place, even if via a vision, versus hearing and answering prayers from Heaven that were addressed to them.
8. Only God being shown having the ability to hear from Heaven the multitudinous prayers of souls on earth.
9. Elders and angels offering up prayers as a one-time memorial before the judgment of the earth (Rv. 5:8; 8:3-5) not being that of them being prayed to.
10. An absence of full correspondence btwn earthly relations and those btwn created beings in each realms, thus PTCBIH and them hearing and answering mental prayers from earth addressed to them in Heaven.
    
11. You not establish a doctrine based on what God could enable or the absence of an explicit command against it.

You all are about as much "Bible Christians" as Christian Scientists are Christian Scientists.

Peace....have you researched purgatory? Here is some friendly advice....DONT.....and if choose to disregard my advice.....load up on smelling salts....you’re gonna need them....lol

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Yes, that's what it was, a misunderstanding. The Catholic Church in the Council of Trent did not accept any of the novel doctrines invented by Luther.

Then you are ignorant of what misunderstanding means versus disagreement. Now go back and answer the questions you ignored or avoided, since these pertain to the real issue.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Peace....have you researched purgatory? Here is some friendly advice....DONT.....and if choose to disregard my advice.....load up on smelling salts....you’re gonna need them....lol

Yes i have and refuted proffered polemics for it, by the grace of God, and smelling salts would not help if there was one.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Post #313 speaks to your position.

Post 314 speaks to your poverty of position, which relies on mere professions, versus Scriptural evidence.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Christ used Himself, His miracles and passion and death and Resurrection. He/they also referred to the OT. Not just anyone understood it though. His disciples, a member of the Church such as Philip when helping the Eunuch, were necessary in order to accurately explain the meaning since it wasn't at all readily understood just by a person reading it on their own.

Indeed, thus we are blessed with classic commentaries, which in no way are contrary to SS.

But now its time to sleep.

 

[truefiction1]

Post 314 speaks to your poverty of position, which relies on mere professions, versus Scriptural evidence.

Our position relies not on mere words (1 Corinthians 2:4), and there is no poverty of the evidence of the Holy Spirit working powerfully within the Life of the Church throughout all of its history, including right now. There is only a poverty of your willingness and ability to accept it.

 

[redleghunter]

Christ used Himself, His miracles and passion and death and Resurrection. He/they also referred to the OT. Not just anyone understood it though. His disciples, a member of the Church such as Philip when helping the Eunuch, were necessary in order to accurately explain the meaning since it wasn't at all readily understood just by a person reading it on their own.

Yes the Word came in Power. Yet Jesus and His apostles quoted and taught from TaNaKh quoting it 855 times. This not including allusions, paraphrasing etc.

And who mentioned just a person reading it on their own. I never made that claim. I stated Jesus and the apostles presented their truth claims by anchoring to the Holy Scriptures.

Indeed Jesus and His apostles performed miracles to demonstrate the Power of the Gospel. That is why we hold their statements and writings as Holy Spirit inspired.

When Pope Francis and the Magisterium starts walking on water and raising the dead, send me a ping.


O.T. Quotations Found in the N.T.

 

[fhansen]

Yes the Word came in Power. Yet Jesus and His apostles quoted and taught from TaNaKh quoting it 855 times. This not including allusions, paraphrasing etc.

And who mentioned just a person reading it on their own. I never made that claim. I stated Jesus and the apostles presented their truth claims by anchoring to the Holy Scriptures.

Yes, they could anchor their claims to Scripture-with accuracy. Others could not necessarily do so, evidenced by the fact that Sola Scriptura adherents disagree with each other regularly.

Indeed Jesus and His apostles performed miracles to demonstrate the Power of the Gospel. That is why we hold their statements and writings as Holy Spirit inspired.

When Pope Francis and the Magisterium starts walking on water and raising the dead, send me a ping.

Doesn't follow-already been done-why should that be required now? I don't expect Protestants to walk on water to prove their interpretations are true-some are, some aren't. We can hold them up for scrutiny against the teachings of the Church that God established for that purpose.

 

[truefiction1]

Yes the Word came in Power. Yet Jesus and His apostles quoted and taught from TaNaKh quoting it 855 times. This not including allusions, paraphrasing etc.

And who mentioned just a person reading it on their own. I never made that claim. I stated Jesus and the apostles presented their truth claims by anchoring to the Holy Scriptures.

Indeed Jesus and His apostles performed miracles to demonstrate the Power of the Gospel. That is why we hold their statements and writings as Holy Spirit inspired.

When Pope Francis and the Magisterium starts walking on water and raising the dead, send me a ping.


O.T. Quotations Found in the N.T.

The thing is, redleghunter, If someone who witnessed Pope Francis or some other RC bishop performing some miracle (alleged to be by the power of the Holy Spirit) testified of this miracle to you, would you believe their testimony?