Catholic Joe Frazier and his beliefs on Ali

[BAFRIEND]

When it comes to his longtime foil, Frazier is sympathetic to the suffering Parkinson’s disease has caused Ali. But as a Christian, Frazier said, he isn’t surprised by it, either. ...

...God judges, you know what I’m saying? We don’t have the power to judge that the man has above.”
Frazier believes that Ali’s arrogant boasts of “I am the greatest!” were “a slap in the Lord’s face,” and that he did the same to his family when he changed his name from Cassius Clay to reflect his Muslim beliefs. - AP

Smokin' Joe is my kind of Catholic. get 'em Joe, God bless.

 

[GlynnWa]

I never knew that Joe Frazier was Catholic, of course it alway did seem he had his life together.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Joe is judging Ali?

When Ali, then Casus Clay, stated he was the greatest, he meant, greatest boxer, not greatest being superseding even God. This was also before his spiritual conversion. His arogance was done more for entertainment value, than anything else.

Ali has shown himself to be a humble, compassionate man. He has done many works for poor people, often without public knowledge.



Frazier is not acting as my kind of Catholic by judging the man.

Jim

 

[BAFRIEND]

I never knew that Joe Frazier was Catholic, of course it alway did seem he had his life together.

Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Brett Favre, Babe Ruth, Barry Bonds, John McEnroe...

The RCC should be getting royalties on these guys.

 

[BAFRIEND]

Joe is judging Ali?

When Ali, then Casus Clay, stated he was the greatest, he meant, greatest boxer, not greatest being superseding even God. This was also before his spiritual conversion. His arogance was done more for entertainment value, than anything else.

Ali has shown himself to be a humble, compassionate man. He has done many works for poor people, often without public knowledge.



Frazier is not acting as my kind of Catholic by judging the man.

Jim

YouTube - Muhammad Ali...Recipe for Life

 

[BAFRIEND]

YouTube - 1971 muhammad ali & joe frazier press conference

 

[BAFRIEND]

I also forgot to mention the greatest athlete of all time is also a Catholic:

Richard Simmons.

 

[zhilan]

As far as I know Catholicism does not subscribe to "prosperity gospel" theology where God sends down illnesses and hardship to punish you for past sins. Ali was and is a sinner, just like all of us. It gets very dangerous when you start attributing earthly suffering as a punishment from God...

 

[G-Com]

Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Brett Favre, Babe Ruth, Barry Bonds, John McEnroe...

Barry Bonds is Catholic?

I know former Reds (and Pirates, Tigers, and Red Sox) first baseman Sean Casey is. One of the nicest guys in baseball. He handily won an SI poll a few years ago about who was the nicest guy in baseball and who wasn't.

Case talked to anyone. Seriously. In his last season as a Red, I sat down toward the field on the first base side and you could hear Case chatter chatter chatter away with the first base coach, the first base umpire, the baserunners, Brandon Phillips, David Ross, the fans... I'm surprised he never called up Marty during rain delays.

God forbid the man ever gets laryngitis.

 

[BAFRIEND]

As far as I know Catholicism does not subscribe to "prosperity gospel" theology where God sends down illnesses and hardship to punish you for past sins. Ali was and is a sinner, just like all of us. It gets very dangerous when you start attributing earthly suffering as a punishment from God...

Actually, Catholicism, like everthing else in Christian history or theology, is the origin of prosperity theology.

An example: in November 1755 an earthquake in Lisbon killed over 30,000 people. This occured on All Saints Day and many of those killed died while in packed Catholic Churches. The Roman Catholic clergys response was that the disaster was the punishment for sins of the people of Lisbon.

 

[SolomonVII]

Actually, Catholicism, like everthing else in Christian history or theology, is the origin of prosperity theology.

An example: in November 1755 an earthquake in Lisbon killed over 30,000 people. This occured on All Saints Day and many of those killed died while in packed Catholic Churches. The Roman Catholic clergys response was that the disaster was the punishment for sins of the people of Lisbon.

This event initiated deep and abiding discussions of the problem of evil that have kept up until the present day. Philosophers as diverse of Liebnitz and de Sade have all been a part of the ongoing debate that was initiated by the Lison earthquake.

 

[BAFRIEND]

This event initiated deep and abiding discussions of the problem of evil that have kept up until the present day. Philosophers as diverse of Liebnitz and de Sade have all been a part of the ongoing debate that was initiated by the Lison earthquake.

Don't forget Voltaire.

I actually paraphrased this from the book The Story of Philosophy, Will Durant.

 

[zhilan]

So all the Saints, and even the Holy Family, whose lives were filled with suffering, were being punished for their own sins? Property theology comes from Pentacostalism, not from traditional Christianity. But if Catholicism is claiming this now, well, that's a suprise, but fortunately, not my problem.

 

[BAFRIEND]

So all the Saints, and even the Holy Family, whose lives were filled with suffering, were being punished for their own sins? Property theology comes from Pentacostalism, not from traditional Christianity. But if Catholicism is claiming this now, well, that's a suprise, but fortunately, not my problem.

No one is stating any such thing... that is unless you are claiming Muhammed Ali is a saint or member of the Holy Family.

 

[MichaelFJF]

I'd like to see the whole interview. It looks to me like Frazier makes a general statement and the interviewer tries to twist that into Ali deserves Parkinson's.

 

[BAFRIEND]

I'd like to see the whole interview. It looks to me like Frazier makes a general statement and the interviewer tries to twist that into Ali deserves Parkinson's.

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:KDRVoaiz_VMJ:www.comcast.net/articles/sports-boxing/20090410/Smokin_.Joe/+%22joe+frazier%22&cd=13&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ushttp://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/18/sports/othersports/18frazier.html

 

[Fantine]

Collectively, all Christians and all Christian churches bear some responsibility for black Americans' embracing the Nation of Islam philosophy promoted by Elijah Muhammed. Its popularity was due to our shameful history of slavery, segregation and black oppression.

While it might have been preferable if Malcolm X and Muhammed Ali found salvation in Catholicism or Christianity, we (and other Christian churches) obviously dropped the ball when it came to reaching out effectively. It seems as if he has led an exemplary life after his years of boxing, and I am glad that his strong religious faith is part of it.

The NOI teaches that black people constitute a nation and that through the institution of the Atlantic slave trade they were systematically denied knowledge of their past history, language, culture, and religion and, in effect, lost control of their lives. Central to this doctrine, NOI theology asserts that black people’s experience of slavery was the fulfillment of Bible prophecy and therefore, black people are the seed of Abraham referred to in the Bible, in Genesis 15:13–14:

And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

—King James Version
​

 

[Fantine]

Collectively, all Christians and all Christian churches bear some responsibility for black Americans' embracing the Nation of Islam philosophy promoted by Elijah Muhammed. Its popularity was due to our shameful history of slavery, segregation and black oppression.

While it might have been preferable if Malcolm X and Muhammed Ali found salvation in Catholicism or Christianity, we (and other Christian churches) obviously dropped the ball when it came to reaching out effectively. It seems as if he has led an exemplary life after his years of boxing, and I am glad that his strong religious faith is part of it.

The NOI teaches that black people constitute a nation and that through the institution of the Atlantic slave trade they were systematically denied knowledge of their past history, language, culture, and religion and, in effect, lost control of their lives. Central to this doctrine, NOI theology asserts that black people’s experience of slavery was the fulfillment of Bible prophecy and therefore, black people are the seed of Abraham referred to in the Bible, in Genesis 15:13–14:

And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

—King James Version
​

 

[D'Ann]

Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Brett Favre, Babe Ruth, Barry Bonds, John McEnroe...

The RCC should be getting royalties on these guys.

All of them were known for doing some sinful things. We all are sinners and not one of us are perfect and not one of us has any room to negatively judge others.

(FTR, I'm proud of those people listed there plus many more Catholics who were able to intertwine their faith while being an inspiration to so many people.)

Actually, Catholicism, like everthing else in Christian history or theology, is the origin of prosperity theology.

An example: in November 1755 an earthquake in Lisbon killed over 30,000 people. This occured on All Saints Day and many of those killed died while in packed Catholic Churches. The Roman Catholic clergys response was that the disaster was the punishment for sins of the people of Lisbon.

Sorry, but no, you are wrong on this one. Catholics understand that suffering is part of our faith. That suffering helps to purge us and bring out our strengths and overcome our weaknesses.

God does allow disease and death. And in probably a few situations, it may have been God's will for illness to befall a land of people like in the Old Testament times... but generally speaking, just because people are suffering whether it be from illness or other sorts of stresses, that does not mean they are being punished or that they are not loved or cherished by God. It does not mean that they are not a good person or a good Christian. I agree with zhilan in that as Catholics, we cannot go in this direction. The Catholic Church does not preach the WoF beliefs when it comes to good health and wealth equals good person and good Christian. I hope and pray that I'm misunderstanding what you are saying here Robert.

So all the Saints, and even the Holy Family, whose lives were filled with suffering, were being punished for their own sins? Property theology comes from Pentacostalism, not from traditional Christianity. But if Catholicism is claiming this now, well, that's a suprise, but fortunately, not my problem.

This is not Catholic teaching. I believe that we might received the "consequences" for the sins that we have committed. Some may view the consequences as punishment or some may view it as a part of learning...

I don't know if God punishes us here on earth for our unrepentent sins or if we are dealt with in the after life.

I do believe in Purgatory and that after we die and if we die believing in Christ and being a Christian, we will go through some type of purging/purification process aka Purgatory because nothing unclean can be in God's sight and as long as we have the old sinful nature... we have uncleanness in us... but that is for another discussion and another thread.

Collectively, all Christians and all Christian churches bear some responsibility for black Americans' embracing the Nation of Islam philosophy promoted by Elijah Muhammed. Its popularity was due to our shameful history of slavery, segregation and black oppression.

While it might have been preferable if Malcolm X and Muhammed Ali found salvation in Catholicism or Christianity, we (and other Christian churches) obviously dropped the ball when it came to reaching out effectively. It seems as if he has led an exemplary life after his years of boxing, and I am glad that his strong religious faith is part of it.

In history, every culture of every race has at one time or another enslaved another race and/or culture. Yes, we do need to take the responsibility of the history within our own country, but also realize that every Country and every race at one time or another enslaved another. That enslavement does not justify violence, nor should it justify the reason that some have choosen an non-Christian faith. Yes, no people should ever enslave another people and yes there are consequences for that sin and perhaps in this Country, the consequence is that there is some souls that have been lost.

The good news is that obviously, our USA has learned it's lesson and we even have a black President and First Lady and family. Our Country has come a long ways.. (thank you Jesus). My hope is that next time we have an election, let us vote for the man who would truly be the best man and not only on skin color.

God's peace,

Debbie

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Actually, Catholicism, like everthing else in Christian history or theology, is the origin of prosperity theology.

An example: in November 1755 an earthquake in Lisbon killed over 30,000 people. This occured on All Saints Day and many of those killed died while in packed Catholic Churches. The Roman Catholic clergys response was that the disaster was the punishment for sins of the people of Lisbon.

This is what the Pope said, or the parish priest?

Either way, they'd be wrong.

Jim