Catholic doctrine on Predestination

[DeaconDean]

The word anathema is one of the most misunderstood terms in anti-Catholic apologetics. Almost all anti-Catholics, from the lowbrow end of the spectrum to those who give themselves airs of scholarship, misunderstand it.
Anathema | Catholic Answers

"Lowbrow",

"not highly intellectual or cultured:"

Source

I'm going to try not to take offense.

You know, I looked at that.

Anathema:

"anathema, atis, n., = ἀνάθεμα, a later form of ἀνάθημα, used in mal. part. (eccl. Lat.), pr. an offering not to be redeemed; and of a living thing, to be put to death, doomed; hence, an accursed thing, a curse. Concr., of things: vocavit nomen loci illius Horma, id est anathema, Vulg. Num. 21, 3; ib. Jud. 1, 17; ib. Deut. 13, 16.

— A curse of excommunication, anathema: anathematis injuria, Aug. Ep. 75.

— Meton. (like the Heb. ). The person cursed: nec inferes quippiam ex idolo in domum tuam, ne fias anathema, sicut et illud est, Vulg. Deut. 7, 26.

— The person excommunicated: aliquem anathema dicere, Tert. adv. Haer. 6; Vulg. Rom. 9, 3; ib. 1 Cor. 12, 3; 16, 22; ib. Gal. 1, 8; 1, 9."

Meaning:

1. an offering
2. an accursed thing, a curse
3. A curse of excommunication, anathema
4. The person cursed
5. The person excommunicated

Source

According to the Code of Canon law, 1983, we read:

"TITLE IV.

PENALTIES AND OTHER PUNISHMENTS (Cann. 1331 - 1340)

CHAPTER I.

CENSURES

Can. 1331 §1. An excommunicated person is forbidden:

1/ to have any ministerial participation in celebrating the sacrifice of the Eucharist or any other ceremonies of worship whatsoever;

2/ to celebrate the sacraments or sacramentals and to receive the sacraments;

3/ to exercise any ecclesiastical offices, ministries, or functions whatsoever or to place acts of governance.

§2. If the excommunication has been imposed or declared, the offender:

1/ who wishes to act against the prescript of §1, n. 1 must be prevented from doing so, or the liturgical action must be stopped unless a grave cause precludes this;

2/ invalidly places acts of governance which are illicit according to the norm of §1, n. 3;

3/ is forbidden to benefit from privileges previously granted;

4/ cannot acquire validly a dignity, office, or other function in the Church;

5/ does not appropriate the benefits of a dignity, office, any function, or pension, which the offender has in the Church."

Code of Canon Law - IntraText

While you say the meaning has changed, the definition from the Latin Lexicon, disagrees in that it gives a meaning for anathema as one who has been ex-communicated.

So again, if I disagree with RCC theology and dogmas on matters, how can I be "anathema" from something, I've never been a part of?

My position is still valid. It may affect Catholics, but it carries no weight against me.

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[kepha31]

"Lowbrow",

"not highly intellectual or cultured:"

Source

I'm going to try not to take offense.

You know, I looked at that.

Anathema:

"anathema, atis, n., = ἀνάθεμα, a later form of ἀνάθημα, used in mal. part. (eccl. Lat.), pr. an offering not to be redeemed; and of a living thing, to be put to death, doomed; hence, an accursed thing, a curse. Concr., of things: vocavit nomen loci illius Horma, id est anathema, Vulg. Num. 21, 3; ib. Jud. 1, 17; ib. Deut. 13, 16.

— A curse of excommunication, anathema: anathematis injuria, Aug. Ep. 75.

— Meton. (like the Heb. ). The person cursed: nec inferes quippiam ex idolo in domum tuam, ne fias anathema, sicut et illud est, Vulg. Deut. 7, 26.

— The person excommunicated: aliquem anathema dicere, Tert. adv. Haer. 6; Vulg. Rom. 9, 3; ib. 1 Cor. 12, 3; 16, 22; ib. Gal. 1, 8; 1, 9."

Meaning:

1. an offering
2. an accursed thing, a curse
3. A curse of excommunication, anathema
4. The person cursed
5. The person excommunicated

Source

According to the Code of Canon law, 1983, we read:

"TITLE IV.

PENALTIES AND OTHER PUNISHMENTS (Cann. 1331 - 1340)

CHAPTER I.

CENSURES

Can. 1331 §1. An excommunicated person is forbidden:

1/ to have any ministerial participation in celebrating the sacrifice of the Eucharist or any other ceremonies of worship whatsoever;

2/ to celebrate the sacraments or sacramentals and to receive the sacraments;

3/ to exercise any ecclesiastical offices, ministries, or functions whatsoever or to place acts of governance.

§2. If the excommunication has been imposed or declared, the offender:

1/ who wishes to act against the prescript of §1, n. 1 must be prevented from doing so, or the liturgical action must be stopped unless a grave cause precludes this;

2/ invalidly places acts of governance which are illicit according to the norm of §1, n. 3;

3/ is forbidden to benefit from privileges previously granted;

4/ cannot acquire validly a dignity, office, or other function in the Church;

5/ does not appropriate the benefits of a dignity, office, any function, or pension, which the offender has in the Church."

Code of Canon Law - IntraText

While you say the meaning has changed, the definition from the Latin Lexicon, disagrees in that it gives a meaning for anathema as one who has been ex-communicated.

So again, if I disagree with RCC theology and dogmas on matters, how can I be "anathema" from something, I've never been a part of?

My position is still valid. It may affect Catholics, but it carries no weight against me.

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one.

It's IMPOSSIBLE to be "anathema" or excommunicated if you are not Catholic. The term "anathema" hasn't been used in centuries. You are making a big noise over nothing.

Basically, the grounds for excommunication is this: You have committed a grave offense that caused you to be spiritually separated from the Church and the community of the faithful. You have left the Church on your own accord by committing the offense. (But remember, excommunication offers a way to go back!)
Catholicism: Excommunication and Other Penalties - dummies

 

[Thursday]

Here is a new one for me.

Since when is:

"A. The Predestination of the Elect.—He who would place the reason of predestination either in man alone or in God alone would inevitably be led into heretical conclusions about eternal election. In the one case the error concerns the last end, in the other the means to that end. Let it be noted that we do not speak of the "cause" of predestination, which would be either the efficient cause (God), or the instrumental cause (grace), or the final cause (God's honor), or the primary meritorious cause, but of the reason or motive which induced God from all eternity to elect certain definite individuals to grace and glory. The principal question then is: Does the natural merit of man exert perhaps some influence on the Divine election to grace and glory? If we recall the dogma of the absolute gratuity of Christian grace, our answer must be outright negative (see Grace). To the further question whether Divine predestination does not at least take into account the supernatural good works, the Church answers with the doctrine that heaven is not given to the elect by a purely arbitrary act of God's will, but that it is also the reward of the personal merits of the justified (see Merit).

Source

Just a plain reading says that believing isn't enough to get you into heaven. While works alone won't get you into heaven.

Entrance to heaven is granted to you by "meritorious" works, heaven, is your "reward".

Learn something new everyday.

God Bless

Till all are one.

A man reaps what he sows. We must obey the commands of Jesus to remain in his love.

 

[Albion]

Just a plain reading says that believing isn't enough to get you into heaven. While works alone won't get you into heaven.

Entrance to heaven is granted to you by "meritorious" works, heaven, is your "reward".

Learn something new everyday.

Sounds to me like it's saying faith and works are both needed from the individual. That's standard thinking for Catholics.

 

[DeaconDean]

It's IMPOSSIBLE to be "anathema" or excommunicated if you are not Catholic. The term "anathema" hasn't been used in centuries. You are making a big noise over nothing.

Basically, the grounds for excommunication is this: You have committed a grave offense that caused you to be spiritually separated from the Church and the community of the faithful. You have left the Church on your own accord by committing the offense. (But remember, excommunication offers a way to go back!)
Catholicism: Excommunication and Other Penalties - dummies

Is that NOT what I said? Geez!

You can't be declared "anathema" or "ex-communicated" from something you never been a part of.

Including this, I said this 3 times.

Geez.............

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

A man reaps what he sows. We must obey the commands of Jesus to remain in his love.

You know, I only know of two commands He gave:

Love the Lord with all your might,

Love your fellow man as you love yourself.

Sad fact: we can't even do that.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You know, I only know of two commands He gave:
Love the Lord with all your might,
Love your fellow man as you love yourself.
Sad fact: we can't even do that..

Jesus told His disciples: I know you don't know how,
come, learn from Me, and I will show you how.
And He did.
(p.s. Jesus Christ, same yesterday, today, and forever)
i.e. He is still willing, for those who are willing.

 

[DeaconDean]

The word anathema is one of the most misunderstood terms in anti-Catholic apologetics. Almost all anti-Catholics, from the lowbrow end of the spectrum to those who give themselves airs of scholarship, misunderstand it.
Anathema | Catholic Answers

I want to go back to this post for one thought.

Anytime a person quotes something from the Council of Trent, as I have many times, we get the usual answer as shown above.

Then, we are directed to Canon Law of 1983.

I quoted from it.

Now here is a thought, if it is SO MISUNDERSTOOD, and a proper understanding today would equate to "ex-communication", then why hasn't the language of the Council of Trent been changed?

Were they not re-affirmed by the Second Vatican Council of 1962-1965?

If "anathema" is as antiquated as the "thee's and thou's" of the KJV, it should seem like a fairly easy change to re-word it from "anathema" to "ex commicato"?

Call another Council and have them change "anathema" to "ex commicato".

Wouldn't this by nature, lessen the misunderstanding?

As it is written, the language of the Council of Trent, still is damming towards those not of the Catholic faith.

It still comes off as saying "anybody who disagrees with what the Catholic church teaches, is cursed. Both Catholic and Non-Catholic."

The same thing could be said if you walked up on a conversation where you heard me say kill only the black ones. You might would think I was a racist, when in fact the whole conversation was about hunting wild boar.

Please understand, I do not say this as a "tongue-in-cheek" manner, I do not mean it in a negative manner, I do not mean this in a demeaning manner, or out of disrespect.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Thursday]

You know, I only know of two commands He gave:

Love the Lord with all your might,

Love your fellow man as you love yourself.

Sad fact: we can't even do that.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Does that mean that you don't have to try? Do you think you will be saved if you never try to obey Jesus, but instead follow your own desires?

 

[98cwitr]

Does that mean that you don't have to try? Do you think you will be saved if you never try to obey Jesus, but instead follow your own desires?

I think to Dean's point, without being born again of the Spirit it is impossible for man to do himself. If we try to guide ourselves we will fail again and again, if we are guided by the Spirit we will do nothing but succeed.

 

[DeaconDean]

Does that mean that you don't have to try? Do you think you will be saved if you never try to obey Jesus, but instead follow your own desires?

Let me tell you this, I was saved the day, the hour, the second, the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sins, I went to the altar, knelt, repented trusted in Christ and believed.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

but instead follow your own desires?

Of course we should all try.

But, I know something you don't.

Even trying, we will sometimes fail.

Peter failed. (2x)

Paul failed. (2x)

If we fail, does mean we have lost our salvation?

Nobody will "score" a 100 on that test.

Only one (1) person ever that I know of was able to reach the perfection mark.

And none of us are Him.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

But, back to the subject at hand.

Predestination.

The article I quoted from got it wrong. (Predestination)

In many respects, Catholicism and Arminianism have the same view of Predestination.

CCC#600: "To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace:"

Source

James Arminus said:

"IV. To these succeeds the fourth decree, by which God decreed to save and damn certain particular persons. This decree has its foundation in the foreknowledge of God, by which he knew from all eternity those individuals who would, through his preventing grace, believe, and, through his subsequent grace would persevere, according to the before described administration of those means which are suitable and proper for conversion and faith; and, by which foreknowledge, he likewise knew those who would not believe and persevere."

Source

In other words, to put it plain English, God looked foreward in time, or in the case of Catholicism, seeing all times at the same time, God knew who would and who wouldn't accept and believe (Foreknowledge) and "predestined" based on that knowledge.

That is not what Rom. 8:29; Eph. 1:5, 11 teaches.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Thursday]

Let me tell you this, I was saved the day, the hour, the second, the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sins, I went to the altar, knelt, repented trusted in Christ and believed.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Why does the bible tell you to endure if you want to be saved? Why does Paul warn you to beware, lest you fall away? Why does Peter tell us it is better to have never known Christ than to meet him then fall back into a life of sin?

Are these meaningless warnings?

 

[Thursday]

Of course we should all try.

But, I know something you don't.

Even trying, we will sometimes fail.

Peter failed. (2x)

Paul failed. (2x)

If we fail, does mean we have lost our salvation?

Nobody will "score" a 100 on that test.

Only one (1) person ever that I know of was able to reach the perfection mark.

And none of us are Him.

God Bless

Till all are one.

If we fail, we repent and confess our sins. What happens if we sin and have no remorse and don't seek to follow the will of God until death?

 

[DeaconDean]

Why does the bible tell you to endure if you want to be saved? Why does Paul warn you to beware, lest you fall away? Why does Peter tell us it is better to have never known Christ than to meet him then fall back into a life of sin?

Are these meaningless warnings?

Has Jesus or God ever lost one single soul?

Once Jesus puts you in God's hand, would you have us to believe man is so powerful that he can take himself out of God's hand?

Did Jesus lie when He taught that if a sheep stray away, that He would leave the 99 and go seek and find that one lost sheep?

If when we misbehave, our earthly fathers chastised us to get us back, would you have us to believe God wouldn't do the same?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

If we fail, we repent and confess our sins. What happens if we sin and have no remorse and don't seek to follow the will of God until death?

Can you show me one person beside Jesus Christ who ever did that? (Followed God's will 100%)

Peter couldn't do it!

Paul couldn't do it!

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Why does the bible tell you to endure if you want to be saved? Why does Paul warn you to beware, lest you fall away? Why does Peter tell us it is better to have never known Christ than to meet him then fall back into a life of sin?

Are these meaningless warnings?

If we fail, we repent and confess our sins. What happens if we sin and have no remorse and don't seek to follow the will of God until death?

And one other question: what has "perseverance" to do with "predestination"?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Thursday]

And one other question: what has "perseverance" to do with "predestination"?

God Bless

Till all are one.

Calvinist predestination claims that God chooses those who will be saved with no regard for their actions on earth. That is inconsistent with scripture which lays out multiple conditions for salvation.

 

[Dave-W]

Calvinist predestination claims that God chooses those who will be saved with no regard for their actions on earth.

And calvinist Irresistible Grace says if you are in the elect, you will walk in obedience; you have no choice in the matter.