Catholic doctrine on Predestination

narnia59

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I realize that this has died down some but have the rules changed? Are Catholics permitted to argue or teach here?
I would expect that if someone started a thread about Baptist doctrine in the Catholic forum, Baptists should be allowed in charity to respond to anything they found to be inaccurate about the way their Baptist beliefs were being portrayed. It would be totally different if Catholics were here arguing against Baptist teachings. But if I understand the thread correctly, the subject is about Catholic teaching.
 
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DeaconDean

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One thing that may (or may not) help with understanding is that often when we speak of salvation, we aren't necessarily speaking of the same thing.

For example, the Southern Baptist SOF says that "“In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification.”

Yet most Southern Baptists I've talked to consider themselves to be 'saved' once they are regenerated and justified.

In the Catholic world, salvation is truly what the SB SOF refers to as the 'broadest sense' -- regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification.

So I believe we find very common ground with most Baptists in that we believe that there is nothiing that can merit the initial grace of justification. But our focus is very strongly placed on step 3 -- sanctification. We take very literally Scriptures like 2 Peter 3:18 that instructs us to grow in grace, St. Paul's assertion in Philippians 3:12 that he is not yet perfected but he strives for this, and Hebrews 12:14 to pursue the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Generally when I ask my Baptist friends if they believe there are things we can do to grow in holiness they respond yes, and give examples of prayer and reading Scripture. As Catholics we would include with that reception of the Sacraments and performing works of charity -- all ways that we grow in holiness.

Perhaps Francis Beckwith says it best -- "A Christian’s good works are performed in order that the grace that God has given us may be lived out so that we may become more like Christ. As I have said, the purpose of “good works” for the Catholic is not to get you into heaven, but to get heaven into you. The Catholic already believes that he or she is an adopted child of God, wholly by God’s grace. For the practicing Catholic, good works, including participating in the sacraments, works of charity, and prayer, are not for the purpose of earning heaven. For good works are not meant to pay off a debt in the Catholic scheme of things. Rather, good works prepare us for heaven by shaping our character and keeping us in communion with God so that we may be “holy and blameless and irreproachable before him” (Col. 1:22).

As for the Catholic church being clear on her teachings, stick to the Catechism. Sometimes in our best intentions to explain things, we can muddy the waters, tis true.

May be, however, I still find it hard to work around the Council of Trent's canon on Justification.

Baptists simply do not accept that we have to work to be justified.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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I would expect that if someone started a thread about Baptist doctrine in the Catholic forum, Baptists should be allowed in charity to respond to anything they found to be inaccurate about the way their Baptist beliefs were being portrayed. It would be totally different if Catholics were here arguing against Baptist teachings. But if I understand the thread correctly, the subject is about Catholic teaching.

You are correct.

I really don't mind Catholics coming and posting.

That is why this was started.

But, there was one member who kept beating me over and over saying you need to read this, and I kept telling them that I had.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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narnia59

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May be, however, I still find it hard to work around the Council of Trent's canon on Justification.

Baptists simply do not accept that we have to work to be justified.

God Bless

Till all are one.
I'm sure Trent is difficult, but I would contend that is because we don't have exactly the same definition of justification either.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a Baptist views justification as an instanteous event that occurs when you are regenerated. It's a legal declaration of righteousness based soley upon Christ's work on the cross.

Catholics would refer to that as the 'initial grace of justification' which incorporates us into the body of Christ and makes us a child of God and is completely unmerited. But we also view justification as being tied to sanctification for what God declares (you are justified) He also fulfills. It's why James says that when Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac, his works brought his faith to completion, and the Scripture that “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” was fulfilled. So as Catholics we believe that as we are assisted by God's grace to strive for holiness, we are fulfilling our justification. I understand you would not agree with that premise, but I think when you read Trent from that perspective it at least is logically coherent.

Just as while I would disagree with the premises of Calvinism, I have to agree that it is logically coherent. All the pieces fit together.

God bless you too :)
 
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DeaconDean

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I'm sure Trent is difficult, but I would contend that is because we don't have exactly the same definition of justification either.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a Baptist views justification as an instanteous event that occurs when you are regenerated. It's a legal declaration of righteousness based soley upon Christ's work on the cross.

Catholics would refer to that as the 'initial grace of justification' which incorporates us into the body of Christ and makes us a child of God and is completely unmerited. But we also view justification as being tied to sanctification for what God declares (you are justified) He also fulfills. It's why James says that when Abraham was willing to sacrifice Isaac, his works brought his faith to completion, and the Scripture that “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” was fulfilled. So as Catholics we believe that as we are assisted by God's grace to strive for holiness, we are fulfilling our justification. I understand you would not agree with that premise, but I think when you read Trent from that perspective it at least is logically coherent.

Just as while I would disagree with the premises of Calvinism, I have to agree that it is logically coherent. All the pieces fit together.

God bless you too :)

I know what the Council of Trent said regarding "private interpretation". But I have studied the Greek behind this subject.

The same Greek word for is used for both "righteous" and "justify". It goes back to the Old Testament work "tsadag" as used in the Torah. Judges are admonished to judge fair and in righteousness.

This also shows that since we do not have anymore judges from the OT, it applies to judges in court to day, but also in the sense that there are only 2 judges that have the inherent right to judge righteously because they are righteous.

In the New Testament, in every place where "righteous" is mentioned, you could substitute "justify/justified" in its place and vice versa.

Yes, at the point of salvation, God has declared me both "righteous" and "justified".

What is left for me to do?

Now, if I have both Christ's righteousness and justification imputed to me, what else is lacking?

The difference between what you see as James telling us to "work for justification" is set against what Paul teaches.

If James and Paul contradict each other, that also means the scriptures contradict each other. And that cannot happen.

When Paul says Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. You must understand, what Abraham has faith in and what Paul is using as his example is Genesis 15, where God promises Abraham "seed".

Then what James says is when Abraham was willing to offer up Isaac.

Both men use Abraham as their example. Paul uses Abraham early on. Abraham was seventy-five years old when he believed God in Genesis 15. However, Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born. (cf. Gen. 22:6) Tradition has it that Isaac was around twenty-five when Abraham took him to the mountain for the sacrifice. If the Catholics and Arminians are correct, then it logically means that Abraham had to wait fifty years in order to actually be justified! No! We merely point out that the offering of his son, gave evidence to Abraham’s faith in God.

What James is saying is that if call yourself a "Christian" and you don't have "works" to prove it, your just like what Paul said, a tinkling cymbal, or sounding brass".

Professing to be a Christian when one is not may secure a standing before men, it may improve his moral and social prestige, he may be able to join a church, and help promote his commercial interests, but can it save him? What is the use to fein to be charitable when works of charity are withheld? What good does it bring to calling oneself a Christian when empty stomachs are met with good words? How can a person claim to be a Christian and clothe the naked by good wishes? What does it profit to profess to be a believer when there is no true piety?

Neither can a person be saved by a mere empty hollow confession of the Gospel. To say that I am a Christian and am unable to appeal to any good works and spiritual fruits as proof of it, profits neither the person nor those who listen. Without the essential element of “faith worketh by love” (cf. Gal. 5:6), no matter how much reading or studying, no amount of head knowledge, no amount of preaching and teaching one can do, they are no more than “sounding brass and tinkling symbol.” Without love, those professors will be the ones pleading their works but will be told: “Depart, I never knew ye.”

And like I said, at the point f salvation, I have judicial decree from the righteous One above, I don't have to work at that anymore.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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