Catholic doctrine on Predestination

[DeaconDean]

True, unless God rewards the things that are his own gifts.

Something given as a merit is a reward. It is not grace.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[PeaceB]

Something given as a merit is a reward. It is not grace.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Does Scripture teach that God will reward you for your good works?

 

[DeaconDean]

It's funny to, that I guess Martin Luther should be considered a heretic also.

Sola Fide (Faith Alone) was a brilliant doctrine from the 1500's.

Yet. according to "A Catholic Thinker" this is a heresy.

I quote:

"...but before we get into that, Protestants make this claim mainly because they have been taught sola fide (“faith alone”), a doctrine that can be demonstrated to have been invented in the 16th century by Martin Luther.

Before getting into the meat of the matter, we do well to consider that the only place in Scripture where the phrase "faith alone" (or anything like it) occurs is to say exactly the opposite of the Protestant teaching:

"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)

This goes a good way to explaining why it is that this particular heresy did not really raise its head for a full fifteen centuries after the Incarnation."

Source

It would be a fair assessment to say that anybody who disagrees with certain "dogmes", it is labeled "heresy".

Shame.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Does Scripture teach that God will reward you for your good works?

I have read nowhere that entrance to heaven is merit/works based.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[PeaceB]

I have read nowhere that entrance to heaven is merit/works based.

God Bless

Till all are one.

OK. But Does Scripture teach that God will reward you for your good works?

 

[DeaconDean]

OK. But Does Scripture teach that God will reward you for your good works?

Show me scripture that says entrance to heaven is given as a merit.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[PeaceB]

Show me scripture that says entrance to heaven is given as a merit.

God Bless

Till all are one.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that I cannot show you any such Scripture because it does not exist. I concede you this argument.

Now, does Scripture teach that God will reward you for your good works?

Yes or No?

 

[DeaconDean]

For the sake of argument, let's assume that I cannot show you any such Scripture because it does not exist. I concede you this argument.

Now, does Scripture teach that God will reward you for your good works?

Yes or No?

It does not matter what I believe.

I am questioning the validity of entrance to heaven being given as a "merit".

What I do believe, is that every Christian will appear before the " βήματος" "bema seat" of Christ. (cf. 2 Cor. 5:10)

Paul says the same thing in Rom. 14:10, "βήματι"

And that place is in heaven.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[PeaceB]

It does not matter what I believe.

I am questioning the validity of entrance to heaven being given as a "merit".

What I do believe, is that every Christian will appear before the " βήματος" "bema seat" of Christ. (cf. 2 Cor. 5:10)

Paul says the same thing in Rom. 14:10, "βήματι"

And that place is in heaven.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Well. If you refuse to answer a simple question there is no room left for us to dialogue. God bless you too.

 

[DeaconDean]

Well. If you refuse to answer a simple question there is no room left for us to dialogue. God bless you too.

This thread was not brought into being to question what I believe.

That is what you have questioned at least twice.

I believe along with Baptist beliefs, if you must know.

And one thing about Baptists is a belief in:

"The 66 Books comprising the Scriptures are given by the verbal inspiration of God, and as such are the only and all sufficient, authoritative rule of faith. Given their divine origins, the Scriptures are without error as originally given."

Link

So again, show me in scriptures where entrance to heaven is given as a merit.

it is also the reward of the personal merits of the justified

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[PeaceB]

This thread was not brought into being to question what I believe.

That is what you have questioned at least twice.

I believe along with Baptist beliefs, if you must know.

And one thing about Baptists is a belief in:

"The 66 Books comprising the Scriptures are given by the verbal inspiration of God, and as such are the only and all sufficient, authoritative rule of faith. Given their divine origins, the Scriptures are without error as originally given."

Link

So again, show me in scriptures where entrance to heaven is given as a merit.



God Bless

Till all are one.

I think that would be a waste of time. Certainly you are already aware of any verses that I might raise, and already deny that they teach that. I have no desire to attempt to prove this to you for this reason.

I am more interested in your statement that "Something given as a merit is a reward. It is not grace." Both you and I know that this statement is false, and that you are refusing to answer my question because you cannot answer it without exposing your statement as false.

 

[DeaconDean]

I think that would be a waste of time. Certainly you are already aware of any verses that I might raise, and already deny that they teach that. I have no desire to attempt to prove this to you for this reason.

I am more interested in your statement that "Something given as a merit is a reward. It is not grace." Both you and I know that this statement is false, and that you are refusing to answer my question because you cannot answer it without exposing your statement as false.

Then you not only call me a liar, you also call the Apostle Paul a liar as well.

"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." -Rom. 4:2-4 (KJV)

Did you read that? "him that worketh is the reward not recoked of grace".

What I posted:

"it is also the reward of the personal merits of the justified"

Means that a debt is owed to Christians, and it is entrance to heaven.

Earlier on, you said:

Salvation or justification by works apart from the grace of Christ is a dead give-away you don't know what you are talking about.

What is a dead giveaway is you don't know Baptists.

That is why I posted what I did on justification.

Your own quote links them (salvation and justification) together.

Fact is, the day I accepted, knelt, repented and believed, I was declared righteous and justified by imputation.

So my "entrance to heaven" has already been granted.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

I am forced to wonder, since I have been accused of "you don't know what you are talking about", I wonder if you could tell me what "to be predestinated" actually means?

Not the same old rhetoric about man being nothing but a robot.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Chapter 7 [III.]— Augustine Confesses that He Had Formerly Been in Error Concerning the Grace of God.

Link please.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[PeaceB]

I am forced to wonder, since I have been accused of "you don't know what you are talking about", I wonder if you could tell me what "to be predestinated" actually means?

Not the same old rhetoric about man being nothing but a robot.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I did not call you or St. Paul a liar, but if that is how you want to roll that is fine by me. Have a good week.

 

[Dave-W]

Does Scripture teach that God will reward you for your good works?

Yes - but it is not about salvation or lack thereof.

 

[PeaceB]

Yes - but it is not about salvation or lack thereof.

Thank you. I am not arguing against that here. I was attempting to show the OP that reward and grace are not mutually exclusive.

 

[kepha31]

Link please.

God Bless

Till all are one.

CHURCH FATHERS: On the Predestination of the Saints, Book I (Augustine)

 

[kepha31]

I am forced to wonder, since I have been accused of "you don't know what you are talking about", I wonder if you could tell me what "to be predestinated" actually means?

Not the same old rhetoric about man being nothing but a robot.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I already posted, briefly, on the meaning of predestination, in post #32 on the previous page. Your use of the term "merit" is another straw man.

III. MERIT
You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.59
2006 The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."62

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.63

footnotes:
59 Roman Missal, Prefatio I de sanctis; Qui in Sanctorum concilio celebraris, et eorum coronando merita tua dona coronas, citing the "Doctor of grace," St. Augustine, En. in Ps.102,7 L 37,1321-1322.
60 Council of Trent (1547): DS 1546.
61 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1548.
62 St. Augustine, Sermo 298,4-5 L 38,1367.
63 St. Thérèse of Lisieux, "Act of Offering" in Story of a Soul, tr. John Clarke (Washington DC: ICS, 1981), 277.​

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Grace and justification
This is the exact opposite of how you use the term "merit". Post #32 defines predestination in layman's terms, this post defines merit.

 

[DeaconDean]

CHURCH FATHERS: On the Predestination of the Saints, Book I (Augustine)

Show me in it, where Augustine recanted please.

I have that particular work btw.

God Bless

Till all are one.