Catholic doctrine on Predestination

kepha31

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As far as pleasing God with good works, we have to adopt His definition of what good is:

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God (Luke 18:19).
Now by the human definition of good, all kinds of human beings do all kinds of good things all of the time, relative to our own varying definitions of good. But that is not what the doctrine is speaking to.

So often believers fall into the trap of comparing themselves with other people and think in terms of relative "goodness" when compared with them. But that is not the standard. The standard for goodness is God Himself, which is perfection.​
This is classic fallacious Calvinist doctrine. The reasoning is that "only God is good; therefore nothing [unregenerate] man does is good." It's the old, tiresome "either/or" mentality again. God is absolutely, perfectly good, so man must be a worm, with absolutely nothing good in him, due to this rebellion in the fall.

The trouble is that this is a basic misunderstanding of Hebrew idiom and how comparisons were made. Jesus was saying that only God is perfectly good. He was not trying to imply that there were no good men. He couldn't, because that contradicts Bible teaching. Jesus also said
"The good person brings good things out of a good treasure" (Mt 12:35; cf. 5:45, 7:17-20, 22:10). He was merely drawing a contrast between our righteousness and God's, but He doesn't deny that we can be "good" in a lesser sense.

The Calvinist reads this and interprets: "God is [completely] good, therefore man is [completely] bad." But Catholics reason from it: "God is perfectly good; therefore, man is good by His grace." Calvinists see in that works-salvation. But we're not denying that man can't save himself; only that he is destitute of any truly good thing whatever before he is regenerated (total depravity).

Calvinism & General Protestantism: Catholic Critique (Index Page)
 
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kepha31

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Stop. Just because someone says in response to context that they had thought something else upon original reading, only to have caught your correction the first time, is not an attempt to derail your train. The main point of your Unam Sanctum not being binding on Protestants still stands.

Some people cannot deal with agreement at all...
Thank you.
I said there was only one Church at the time. The disunion of the Orthodox excludes them from the one Church. I avoid discussions about the Catholic/Orthodox controversies especially when it is so off topic and a very complicated subject.
Biblical Evidence for Catholicism: Critique of Orthodoxy (John McAlpine)
 
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PeaceB

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Here is a new one for me.

Since when is:

"A. The Predestination of the Elect.—He who would place the reason of predestination either in man alone or in God alone would inevitably be led into heretical conclusions about eternal election. In the one case the error concerns the last end, in the other the means to that end. Let it be noted that we do not speak of the "cause" of predestination, which would be either the efficient cause (God), or the instrumental cause (grace), or the final cause (God's honor), or the primary meritorious cause, but of the reason or motive which induced God from all eternity to elect certain definite individuals to grace and glory. The principal question then is: Does the natural merit of man exert perhaps some influence on the Divine election to grace and glory? If we recall the dogma of the absolute gratuity of Christian grace, our answer must be outright negative (see Grace). To the further question whether Divine predestination does not at least take into account the supernatural good works, the Church answers with the doctrine that heaven is not given to the elect by a purely arbitrary act of God's will, but that it is also the reward of the personal merits of the justified (see Merit).

Source

Just a plain reading says that believing isn't enough to get you into heaven. While works alone won't get you into heaven.

Entrance to heaven is granted to you by "meritorious" works, heaven, is your "reward".

Learn something new everyday.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Here you are:

Paul III   Council of Trent-6


CHAPTER XVI
THE FRUITS OF JUSTIFICATION, THAT IS, THE MERIT OF GOOD WORKS, AND THE NATURE OF THAT MERIT


Therefore, to men justified in this manner, whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received or recovered it when lost, are to be pointed out the words of the Apostle: Abound in every good work, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.[93]

For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name;[94] and, Do not lose your confidence, which hath a great reward.[95]

Hence, to those who work well unto the end[96] and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.[97]

For this is the crown of justice which after his fight and course the Apostle declared was laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the just judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming.[98]

For since Christ Jesus Himself, as the head into the members and the vine into the branches,[99] continually infuses strength into those justified, which strength always precedes, accompanies and follows their good works, and without which they could not in any manner be pleasing and meritorious before God, we must believe that nothing further is wanting to those justified to prevent them from being considered to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained in its [due] time, provided they depart [this life] in grace,[100] since Christ our Savior says:

If anyone shall drink of the water that I will give him, he shall not thirst forever; but it shall become in him a fountain of water springing up into life everlasting.[101]

Thus, neither is our own justice established as our own from ourselves,[102] nor is the justice of God ignored or repudiated, for that justice which is called ours, because we are justified by its inherence in us, that same is [the justice] of God, because it is infused into us by God through the merit of Christ.

Nor must this be omitted, that although in the sacred writings so much is attributed to good works, that even he that shall give a drink of cold water to one of his least ones, Christ promises, shall not lose his reward;[103] and the Apostle testifies that, That which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation, worketh for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory;[104] nevertheless, far be it that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself and not in the Lord,[105] whose bounty toward all men is so great that He wishes the things that are His gifts to be their merits.

And since in many things we all offend,[106] each one ought to have before his eyes not only the mercy and goodness but also the severity and judgment [of God]; neither ought anyone to judge himself, even though he be not conscious to himself of anything;[107] because the whole life of man is to be examined and judged not by the judgment of man but of God, who will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then shall every man have praise from God,[108] who, as it is written, will render to every man according to his works.[109]

After this Catholic doctrine on justification, which whosoever does not faithfully and firmly accept cannot be justified, it seemed good to the holy council to add to these canons, that all may know not only what they must hold and follow, but also what to avoid and shun.
 
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2win

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Here you are:

Paul III Council of Trent-6


CHAPTER XVI
THE FRUITS OF JUSTIFICATION, THAT IS, THE MERIT OF GOOD WORKS, AND THE NATURE OF THAT MERIT


Therefore, to men justified in this manner, whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received or recovered it when lost, are to be pointed out the words of the Apostle: Abound in every good work, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.[93]

For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name;[94] and, Do not lose your confidence, which hath a great reward.[95]

Hence, to those who work well unto the end[96] and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.[97]

For this is the crown of justice which after his fight and course the Apostle declared was laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the just judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming.[98]

For since Christ Jesus Himself, as the head into the members and the vine into the branches,[99] continually infuses strength into those justified, which strength always precedes, accompanies and follows their good works, and without which they could not in any manner be pleasing and meritorious before God, we must believe that nothing further is wanting to those justified to prevent them from being considered to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained in its [due] time, provided they depart [this life] in grace,[100] since Christ our Savior says:

If anyone shall drink of the water that I will give him, he shall not thirst forever; but it shall become in him a fountain of water springing up into life everlasting.[101]

Thus, neither is our own justice established as our own from ourselves,[102] nor is the justice of God ignored or repudiated, for that justice which is called ours, because we are justified by its inherence in us, that same is [the justice] of God, because it is infused into us by God through the merit of Christ.

Nor must this be omitted, that although in the sacred writings so much is attributed to good works, that even he that shall give a drink of cold water to one of his least ones, Christ promises, shall not lose his reward;[103] and the Apostle testifies that, That which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation, worketh for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory;[104] nevertheless, far be it that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself and not in the Lord,[105] whose bounty toward all men is so great that He wishes the things that are His gifts to be their merits.

And since in many things we all offend,[106] each one ought to have before his eyes not only the mercy and goodness but also the severity and judgment [of God]; neither ought anyone to judge himself, even though he be not conscious to himself of anything;[107] because the whole life of man is to be examined and judged not by the judgment of man but of God, who will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then shall every man have praise from God,[108] who, as it is written, will render to every man according to his works.[109]

After this Catholic doctrine on justification, which whosoever does not faithfully and firmly accept cannot be justified, it seemed good to the holy council to add to these canons, that all may know not only what they must hold and follow, but also what to avoid and shun.
I am just asking; Is this the Roman Catholic room? If it is I need to get out of here.
 
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DeaconDean

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DeaconDean

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You left a few things out, immediately following your quote:

Those who, like the Pelagians, seek the reason for predestination only in man's naturally good works, evidently misjudge the nature of the Christian heaven, which is an absolutely supernatural destiny. As Pelagianism puts the whole economy of salvation on a purely natural basis, so it regards predestination in particular not as a special grace, much less as the supreme grace, but only as a reward for natural merit.

The Semipelagians, too, depreciated the gratuity and the strictly supernatural character of eternal happiness by ascribing at least the beginning of faith (initium fidei) and final perseverance (donum perseverantice) to the exertion of man's natural powers, and not to the initiative of preventing grace. This is one class of heresies which, slighting God and His grace, makes all salvation depend on man alone. But no less grave are the errors into which a second group falls by making God alone responsible for everything, and abolishing the free cooperation of the will in obtaining eternal happiness. This is done by the advocates of heretical Predestinarianism (q.v.), embodied in its purest form in Calvinism and Jansenism. Those who seek the reason of predestination solely in the absolute Will of God are logically forced to admit an irresistibly efficacious grace (gratia irresistibilis), to deny the freedom of the will when influenced by grace and wholly to reject supernatural merits (as a secondary reason for eternal happiness). And since in this system eternal damnation, too, finds its only explanation in the Divine will, it further follows that concupiscence acts on the sinful will with an irresistible force, that there the will is not really free to sin, and that demerits cannot be the cause of eternal damnation.
Predestination | Catholic Answers

learn something new every day.


I guess Augustine was a "heretic" also.

"On the Predestination of the Saints" Augustine.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Here you are:

Paul III Council of Trent-6


CHAPTER XVI
THE FRUITS OF JUSTIFICATION, THAT IS, THE MERIT OF GOOD WORKS, AND THE NATURE OF THAT MERIT


Therefore, to men justified in this manner, whether they have preserved uninterruptedly the grace received or recovered it when lost, are to be pointed out the words of the Apostle: Abound in every good work, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.[93]

For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name;[94] and, Do not lose your confidence, which hath a great reward.[95]

Hence, to those who work well unto the end[96] and trust in God, eternal life is to be offered, both as a grace mercifully promised to the sons of God through Christ Jesus, and as a reward promised by God himself, to be faithfully given to their good works and merits.[97]

For this is the crown of justice which after his fight and course the Apostle declared was laid up for him, to be rendered to him by the just judge, and not only to him, but also to all that love his coming.[98]

For since Christ Jesus Himself, as the head into the members and the vine into the branches,[99] continually infuses strength into those justified, which strength always precedes, accompanies and follows their good works, and without which they could not in any manner be pleasing and meritorious before God, we must believe that nothing further is wanting to those justified to prevent them from being considered to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained in its [due] time, provided they depart [this life] in grace,[100] since Christ our Savior says:

If anyone shall drink of the water that I will give him, he shall not thirst forever; but it shall become in him a fountain of water springing up into life everlasting.[101]

Thus, neither is our own justice established as our own from ourselves,[102] nor is the justice of God ignored or repudiated, for that justice which is called ours, because we are justified by its inherence in us, that same is [the justice] of God, because it is infused into us by God through the merit of Christ.

Nor must this be omitted, that although in the sacred writings so much is attributed to good works, that even he that shall give a drink of cold water to one of his least ones, Christ promises, shall not lose his reward;[103] and the Apostle testifies that, That which is at present momentary and light of our tribulation, worketh for us above measure exceedingly an eternal weight of glory;[104] nevertheless, far be it that a Christian should either trust or glory in himself and not in the Lord,[105] whose bounty toward all men is so great that He wishes the things that are His gifts to be their merits.

And since in many things we all offend,[106] each one ought to have before his eyes not only the mercy and goodness but also the severity and judgment [of God]; neither ought anyone to judge himself, even though he be not conscious to himself of anything;[107] because the whole life of man is to be examined and judged not by the judgment of man but of God, who will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts, and then shall every man have praise from God,[108] who, as it is written, will render to every man according to his works.[109]

After this Catholic doctrine on justification, which whosoever does not faithfully and firmly accept cannot be justified, it seemed good to the holy council to add to these canons, that all may know not only what they must hold and follow, but also what to avoid and shun.

Here again, just as before, just as was for centuries before the Reformation, our "justification" lies in something you do.

Have you ever read and studies what the word "imputed" means?

Evidently not.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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The problem is, most RCC members come here, see what I post, and immediately jump on me like blood infested waters around a shark.

Fact of the matter is, I have studied the RCC's position on justification.

Several years ago in seminary, I did a study/paper on just this subject.

Here is what I found out from the RCC perspective:

"Roman Catholic Doctrine

Before anything is said on this subject, the writer wishes to point out that many doctrines Christianity as a whole hold dear to come to us through the Catholic Church. They have retained the supernatural element of Christianity throughout. Indeed, we owe a gratitude of thankfulness to God that underneath numerous errors, great Gospel truths are preserved. The doctrine of the Trinity, the true Divinity of Christ, the true doctrine regarding His person as God and man in two distinct natures and one person forever, salvation through His blood, regeneration and sanctification through the almighty power of the Holy Spirit, the resurrection of the body, and eternal life are all the doctrines in which the people of God in communion live.

However, on the matter of justification, the Catholic Church has marred the truth as they have almost all other doctrines pertaining to the merits of Christ are made available to our salvation. Catholics share the same view of mankind before salvation as do Protestants. Up to the point of regeneration we can agree, it is from the moment in regeneration (as the Catholic Church teaches, i.e.: baptism) we begin to separate. According to the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 7, we read:

“…the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ…the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise,..the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance, the meritorious cause is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father, the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified finally, the single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills, and according to each one's disposition and cooperation. For though no one can be just except he to whom the merits of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ”

So according to the Catholic scheme, we can sum it up as:

1. God is the efficient cause of our justification, as it is by his power or supernatural grace that the soul is made just.
2. Christ is the meritorious cause, as it is for his sake God grants this saving grace, or influence of the Spirit to the children of men.
3. Inherent righteousness is the formal cause, since thereby the soul is made really just or holy.
4. Faith is the occasional and predisposing cause, as it leads the sinner to seek justification (regeneration) and disposes God to grant the blessing. In this respect it has the merit of congruity only, not that of congruity.
5. Baptism is the essential instrumental cause, as it is only through or by baptism that inherent righteousness is infused or justification, which makes the sinner holy.
6. Good works, all the fruits and exercises of the new life, have real merit and constitute the ground of the Christians title to eternal life.

That about sum it up?

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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The Meaning of “dikiaow”

Our Greek word has its root in the Greek word “dikh”. This word means “right”, “justice”; in the NT, judicial punishment, vengeance; 2 Thes. 1:9; Jude 7; sentence of punishment, judgment, Acts 25:15; personified, the goddess of justice or vengeance, Nemesis, Paena, Acts 28:4.


This word draws directly from the Hebrew word “tsadag” (tsaw-dak). Which is rendered in the OT as “justify”, “righteous”, “just”, “justice”, “cleansed”, “cleanse ourselves”, “righteousness”.


Plato links “dikaiow” with “dikh” saying it denotes obligations to men and to God, and therefore indicates “one who fulfills obligations towards men,” fulfillment of religious duties often attributed to this by such terms as : osioV, eusebhV, qeopilhV, qeosebhV. [1]


Looking at the word in the LXX, it is a “forensic” term. Yet in the LXX, the predominate usage does not carry a negative meaning as some Greek usage: (w QemistokleeV, en toisi agwsi oi proexanistamenoi rapizontai. o de apoluomenoV efh oi de ge egkataleipomenoi ou stefanountai.[2]) but is constantly used in the most positive sense of “to pronounce righteous,” “to justify”, “to vindicate”. The forensic element is even stronger in the Masoretic text in that the Masoretic Isa. 42:25 is rendered as they find righteousness with Yahweh, and in the LXX it is rendered that they are declared righteous by him (apo kuriou dikaiw qhsoutai).


The LXX uses dikaioun in these ways which should be noted:

1. (a). Active (hiphil)- “to declare someone as righteous,” “to acquit someone,” “to secure justice for him.” According to the legal custom of Israel, this “dikaioun” may not apply for the “asebhV” (wicked) cf. Ex. 23:7; Isa. 5:23. Only the “just” (dikaioV) may be declared righteous (cf. Deut. 25:1), materially: “oV dikaion krinei ton adikon de ton dikaion” (Prov. 17:15); and from the religious standpoint: “kurioV krinei laouV krinon me kurie kata thn dikaioswnhn mou kai kata thn akakian mou ep emoi” (cf. Psa. 7:9).

(b). Tar (pi)- “to prove to be innocent or righteous” Jer. 3:11: “edikaiwsen thn fuchn autou israhl apo thV asunqetou Iouda,” “it has shown itself more righteous than” Ezek. 16:51: “edikaiiwaV taV adelfaV sou” “thou hast justified thy sisters”.

2. Passive a. Of the vindication or right conduct of man (especially the chosen people) in relation to Yahweh: Isa. 43:9: “dikaiwqhtwsan; ina dikaiwqhV” (vs. 26). Related is the usage in Psa. 142:2: “oti ou dikaiwqhsetai enwpion sou pas zwn,” the LXX renders “no one can be pronounced righteous (justified) before God’s judgment,” this clearly makes the Masoretic sharper (nothing living is righteous in thy sight), here it is asserted not only universal sinfulness but the impossibility of justification. In Gal. 2:16, and in Rom. 3:20, Paul adds: “ex ergwn nomou” which shows that the Psa. 142:2 passage had an impact on Paul’s understanding of justification.

3. Passive in the intransitive sense: “dikaiwqhnai” as a translation of the Hebrew word in Gen. 44:16 where Judah asks: “ti dikaiwqwmen” “how shall we (justify) clean ourselves?”

Plato also links “dikaiaoV” with ethics for whom righteousness is a distinctly political virtue, it is firmly anchored in the soul of men, who inwardly comes to what is proper to himself, to inner order and the harmony of spiritual virtues. (Resp. IV, 443c ff)

Looking into the Greek and Hellenistic Writings

Plato says: “nomoV o pantwnbasileuV/ageidikaiwn to biaiotaton/upertata ceipi”: “the law makes a “dikaion” and declares to be right what otherwise would be supremely arbitrary.” U.v. Wilamauiety in “Platon”, II, (1920) p. 93,99 argues instead: “biaiwn to dikaiotaton” (doing violence to absolute righteousness) (cf. J. Geffchen, Studier zu Plat., Geor., Herm., 65, (1930) p. 19.) But A. Busse, Herm., 66 (1931) 126 ff, argues for the older reading.


According to Plato’s exposition[3], there is thus carried through: “to thV fusewV dikaion”. In accordance with nature, the law gives the character of right to even the most arbitrary act. It is keeping with the nuance in Plindar that that the term is often used for divine rule and order in the law: cf. Philo, Spec. Leg., I, 67,109,140; II, 72, 113; III, 172, 180; etc; and once in Josephus, Ant., 4, 278.

It was during the Greek/Hellenistic period that the word begins to be defined from the legal sphere and takes a general usage in the sense of “fair or right”, i.e.; to formulate for oneself as “dikaion”. (cf.: “axioun, dikimoun”) This is the most common usage: Soph. Oed., Tyr., 6, 575, 640; Oed. Col., 1350, 1642; Hdt., I, 89; Thuc., IV, 122, 5; this is true of both Josephus and Philo. (cf. Josh., Ant. 9, 187; 12, 1224; 19, 305; Philo, Abr., 142, 171; Migr., Abr., 73, Vit. Mos., I, 44; etc) Josephus who also uses this word ten times, never deviates from Greek usage.

When the word is applied personally, a widespread usage springs up to mean: “to establish”: “to dikaion” for someone,” “to treat rightly,” “to secure justice for someone.” This can take a negative connotation; i.e.; “to judge”, “to punish”, (cf. “kakoun”, “to do wrong” “doloun”, “to outwit,” “zhloun”, etc.)


Turning our attention to another area, particular notice should be given to the usage in the Mystical. In the Corpus Hermeticum, written by unknown authors in Egypt around the end of the third century A.D., once considered substantial literature attributed to the mystical figure of Hermes Trismegistus, this literature came out of the same religious and philosophical ferment that produced Neo-Platonism, it is recorded:

“cwriV gar krisewV ide twV thn adikian exhlasen. edikaiwqhmen, w teknon, adikaiaV apowshV”[4] (See how [the measure of] the Good is full, my son, upon truths coming. For envy is gone from us: and unto truth is joined the Good as well, with Life and Light.)[5]

The formula here perhaps consciously is given a Christian reference, and means: “we have become sinless.” “dikaiosinh” is made over to the mystic as “adikia” is driven out by the destruction of all evil desires deriving from the body. (cf. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Vol. II, “dikaiosumh”, p. 193) But the idea of being declared righteous in judgment is rejected, and there is perhaps a polemic against the Judaeo-Christian concept of “dikaiwqhnai”. It may even be that the Egyptian idea of justification by the judgment of the dead is here given a mystical application. According to this conception, the dead are set by Osiris on the scales, weighed, and then pronounced righteous because their good works are predominate (though knowledge also counts). Stains are removed by rites of expiation and magic.

dikaiow in the N.T.


The concept of vindication/justification is found twice. Once it is used in the sense of “to justify God”. A similar usage is to be found in the “edikaiwqh en pneumati” of the hymn to Christ in 1 Tim. 3:16, for which “redeemed” is hardly adequate. The idea that Christ was justified in the sphere of the spirit, i.e.: that his claim to be Christ was demonstrated and validated by the resurrection (in contrast to the “edikaiwqn en sarki”).[6]

Then we have the concept of “to justify oneself,” “to represent oneself as righteous.” A weaker sense, which yet still betrays its legal origin, the lawyer (nomikoV) in Lk. 10:29: “dikaiwsai eautou” seeks to vindicate himself in the debate. The character of the Pharisees is testified to in this manner: “ymeis este oi dikaiounteV eautouV twn anqrwpwn” (you are those justifying yourselves before men) “to declare or to represent oneself as righteous” is much closer to the main N.T. usage. The attribute of the “dikaioV” anticipates what God alone can establish by His pronouncement.


We also have “dikaiwqhnai” in the sense of saving righteousness in the Synopitists. Paul is not only one to use the term in strict legal sense. Luke’s statement concerning the publican in 18:14: “katebh outoV dedikaiwmenoV eis ton oikon autou h ekeinon” can only mean “acquitted” “declared righteous.” The saying assumes a present righteousness, [7] though in distinction from Paul, there is no reference to the saving act of the cross.[8] The reference in Mt. 12:37: “ek gar twn logwn sou dikaiwqhsh” (for the words of you, you will be justified)[9] is exclusively to the last judgment.

[1] See the article by T. Nettles, “John Wesley’s Contention with Calvinism: Interactions Then and Now,” in the Grace of God and the Bondage of the Will, II, 297 ff. Similarly, Robert Oliver, “The Arminian Controversy of Eighteenth Century Methodism” Divisions and Dissensions: Papers Read at the 1987 Westminster Conference (England: The Westminster Conference, 1987) 78-93.
[2] Adam Clark, Christian Theology, London, Thomas and Son Publishers, 1835, p. 156; 158
[3] A.M. Mills, Fundamental Christian Theology: A Systematic Theology, Schmul Publishing Company, Salem, OH., 1980, II, p. 184
[4] William Pope, A Higher Catechism of Theology, p. 228
[5] Adam Clarke, Christian Theology, p. 155
[6] Samuel Wakefield, Christian Theology, p. 414
[7] "The personal guilt of Adam's transgression was never imputed to his descendents, nor that of the elect to Christ; though Adam's descendents do suffer certain consequences of his sin, and Christ's sufferings were in consequence of sin not his own" (W. F. Tillett, Personal Salvation: Studies in Christian Doctrine pertaining to the Spiritual Life [Nashville, TN: Publishing House of the M. E. Church, 1902] p. 219).
[8] J. Miley, Systematic Theology, II:319.
[9] John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, Of Justification by Faith, Chapter 11, Section 2. Article on-line, accessed 5/27/09, found on the World Wide Web at: Institutes of the Christian Religion | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Continued...
 
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Because justification is forensic in nature and a legal term, therefore justification deals with the believers standing in relation to the “Law”. So we state that justification refers not to a change in moral character, but solely to a change in legal status. Whereas we once stood condemned by the “Law” in our sinful state, the believer has now passed from a state of condemnation to one of acceptance through the obedience and fulfillment of the requirements that are received by faith alone, thus changing us to righteous and justified by imputation by an act of God

The Roman Catholic Church stands opposed to this in that they believe there is an “infusion” of grace. We do not say this harshly, for many of the great doctrines of the Bible were preserved by them. However, their doctrine concerning justification betrays its “man-centered” theology. An overview of their doctrine shows that they readily admit that there is no good in fallen man; that he can merit nothing and claim nothing on the ground of anything he is, or can do himself. He is by nature, dead in sin, and until he is made a partaker of a new life by the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit, he can do nothing but sin. For Christ’s sake, and only through His merits, as a matter of grace, this new life is “imparted” to the soul in regeneration (as they define regeneration through baptism). As life expels death; as light dispels darkness; so the entrance of this new divine life into the soul expels sin (sinful habits), and brings forth the fruits of righteousness.

Works done after regeneration have “real” merit. “Meritum condigmi”, and are the ground for a second justification; the first justification consisting in making the soul inherently just by the infusion of righteousness. Now, according to this view, we are not justified by works done before regeneration, but we are justified for gracious works, i.e.: for works which spring from the principle of divine life infused into the heart. Thus the whole ground of our acceptance with God is made to be what we are, and what we can do.

Infusion stands opposed to imputation. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines “infuse” as: 1.To cause to be permeated with something (as a principle or quality that alters usually for the better).
2.Inspire, animate.
3.To steep in liquid (as water) without baiting so as to extract soluble constituents or principles.
4.To administer or inject by infusion.

In Philemon 18, we read:

"If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account;"

"εἰ δέ τι ἠδίκησέν σε ἢ ὀφείλει, τοῦτο ἐμοὶ ἐλλόγα: " (Philemon 18 GNT)

The phrase "put that on mine account" means "impute that to me".

Standing opposed to this is the Greek word “ἐλλόγα” “From en logw, this means “to lay to account”, and id this a so-called “hypostasis” like “egceirein” from en ceiri”

Properly, “imputation” is an accounting term. An example of this is the statement made by the Apostle Paul in the book of Philemon. Paul says to Onesemus that if he has suffered any loss because of the runaway slave Philemon, that he should lay that “to his account”. (cf. Phlm. 18) Any debt that Onesemus accrued from the loss, that he should “charge” that to his account.

The idea being expressed here is that there is a great accounting book. In it, are all the liabilities (specifically our sins) of men on one side, and on the debit (credit) side is the righteousness of Christ. In the saving act of the cross, Christ had mans liabilities charged, laid to His account, imputed to Him. And when the repentant comes to Christ in repentance, believing by faith that He is the Son of God, crucified for their sins, risen from the dead on the third day, our liabilities, our sins, are imputed to Christ, and forgiven, then by imputation, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us.

Paul uses the same Greek root word in Romans 4:3 when he wrote:

"Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

"τί γὰρ ἡ γραφὴ λέγει; Ἐπίστευσεν δὲ Ἀβραὰμ τῷ θεῷ, καὶ ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ εἰς δικαιοσύνην." (Romans 4:3 GNT)

The Grounds of our Justification

A lot has been said thus far. Groundwork must be laid to know where one has come from. The ground on which the believer in Christ is justified, is still today, a constantly debated subject. Depending on one’s personal conviction in denominational beliefs, the doctrine changes. For one, it is an infusion. For another, it is imputation by faith, for another, it is by works. It is for this reason, we need to examine this topic.

The question is: How can a man be just with God? If the word “just” means “good”, i.e.: taken in its moral and not in its judicial sense, then it is absurd to say that a man can be good with the goodness of another, or to say that God can pronounce a man just who is unjust. Robert Bellarmin says: “an Ethiopian clothed in white is not white.” Stephanus Curcellaeus said: “a man can no more be just with the justice of another, than he can be white with the whiteness of another.” Johann Moehler is credited as saying: “It is impossible that anything should appear to God other than it really is; that an unjust man should appear to him, or be pronounced by him just.”

By the righteousness of Christ, it is meant all that He became, all He did, all He suffered to satisfy the demands of divine justice, and merit for His people, the forgiveness of sin and the gift of eternal life. Numerous theologians have spoken of two types of obedience that our Lord rendered: active and passive obedience. As far as “active” obedience is concerned, the Bible does teach that Christ obeyed the Law and all its precepts, and, that He endured its penalty as well. And that this was done in such a sense as to say that His people have done so. They died with Him. They were crucified with Him. They were delivered from the curse of the Law by His being made a curse for us. He was made under the Law, so that He could redeem those who were under the Law. We are freed from the Law by the body of Christ. He was made sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. He is the end of the Law for righteousness to all them that believe. It was by His obedience that many were made righteous.

Passive obedience: is meant His sufferings and death, which in scripture, are expressed by His blood. (John Gill) That works must be excluded as a ground for justification is often misunderstood and wrongly used. That justification does not spring from any works we could do is shown but Paul in the example of Abraham. For if justification proceeded from works, then Abraham would have something to boast of, and so would we. We would have every right to stroll around heaven and brag about the works we have done which merited our entrance to a title in heaven.

But, scriptures teach us negatively that it is not due to our own good works. They deny that justification can be by works of the Law. (cf. Rom. 3:20; Gal. 3:11; Eph. 2:9) They also teach that could this be attained, Christ died in vain. (cf. Gal. 2:21; 5:4) They teach that all mankind are tainted by sin, therefore any works done by us would likewise be tainted. (cf. Rom. 3:10) The scriptures also teach that a perfect obedience at all times is required by the Law. (cf. Jas. 2:10) The scriptures likewise teach that if the Law could make alive, then righteousness would have been by the Law. (cf. Gal. 3:21)

These statements show that not only are men not saved by works alone, but not by works mixed with grace. Justification cannot arise, therefore, from the good works of men. (James P. Boyce) Something entirely outside of man must be our ground for justification.


“for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” –Gal. 2:21 (KJV) The Apostle Paul teaches us that the “Law” is “holy,” “just,” and “good.” (cf. Rom. 7:12) And it is, but the “Law” has a flaw, a fault:

“For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.” –Heb. 8:7 (KJV)

The Law had promises for everything. If you sinned, the Law made provision for atonement. If you committed a crime, the Law had a provision for punishment. If you contracted Leprosy, the Law had a provision for that. If you wanted to convert to Judaism, the Law had a provision for that. But the one thing the Law absolutely could not do was to pronounce the sinner “righteous.” “For if righteousness came by the Law, then Christ died in vain.

In the Old Testament, the name which the Messiah was foretold was:

“The Lord our Righteousness” (cf. Jer. 23:6). Daniel said that he should come here to

“make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness,” –Dan. 9:24 (KJV

The prophet Isaiah said:

“Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.” –Isa. 45:24-25 (KJV)

And speaking of the redeemed, he says:

“I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness,” –Isa. 61:10 (KJV)

Being as since Christ is called “The Lord our Righteousness”, this indicates our righteousness must lie in something besides ourselves. The other point of the Law is that it demands a perfect obedience. Thus James states:

“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” –Jas. 2:10 (KJV)

Strongly opposed to the doctrine that after salvation, works have real merit, is this verse:

“whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” –Gal. 5:4 (KJV)

In Romans 4:6-8, we read:

“Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Here we see two things; God imputing righteousness, and God not imputing sins. These two things are never separate. Unto whom God imputes not sin, He imputes righteousness; likewise, unto whom He imputes righteousness, He imputes not sin. Now we may ask this question: Whose righteousness is it that God imputes, reckons, places to the account of the one who believes?

The answer quite simply is, that righteousness which was wrought out by our Surety, that obedience to the Law which was rendered by our Savior: “the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (cf. 2 Pet. 1:1). This righteousness was not only unto all, but “unto all that believe”. (cf. Rom. 3:22)

It is called “the righteousness of God” because it was the righteousness of the God-man Mediator, just as in Acts 20:28 his blood is called the blood of God.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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kepha31

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I guess Augustine was a "heretic" also.

"On the Predestination of the Saints" Augustine.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Augustine made a mistake and confessed it. The Church teaches predestination, but not Calvin's model.
Chapter 7 [III.]— Augustine Confesses that He Had Formerly Been in Error Concerning the Grace of God.
Calvin invented the heresy of double predestination and it never went away.
 
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kepha31

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Because justification is forensic in nature and a legal term, therefore justification deals with the believers standing in relation to the “Law”. So we state that justification refers not to a change in moral character, but solely to a change in legal status. Whereas we once stood condemned by the “Law” in our sinful state, the believer has now passed from a state of condemnation to one of acceptance through the obedience and fulfillment of the requirements that are received by faith alone, thus changing us to righteous and justified by imputation by an act of God

The Roman Catholic Church stands opposed to this in that they believe there is an “infusion” of grace. We do not say this harshly, for many of the great doctrines of the Bible were preserved by them. However, their doctrine concerning justification betrays its “man-centered” theology. An overview of their doctrine shows that they readily admit that there is no good in fallen man; that he can merit nothing and claim nothing on the ground of anything he is, or can do himself. He is by nature, dead in sin, and until he is made a partaker of a new life by the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit, he can do nothing but sin. For Christ’s sake, and only through His merits, as a matter of grace, this new life is “imparted” to the soul in regeneration (as they define regeneration through baptism). As life expels death; as light dispels darkness; so the entrance of this new divine life into the soul expels sin (sinful habits), and brings forth the fruits of righteousness.

Works done after regeneration have “real” merit. “Meritum condigmi”, and are the ground for a second justification; the first justification consisting in making the soul inherently just by the infusion of righteousness. Now, according to this view, we are not justified by works done before regeneration, but we are justified for gracious works, i.e.: for works which spring from the principle of divine life infused into the heart. Thus the whole ground of our acceptance with God is made to be what we are, and what we can do.

Infusion stands opposed to imputation. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines “infuse” as: 1.To cause to be permeated with something (as a principle or quality that alters usually for the better).
2.Inspire, animate.
3.To steep in liquid (as water) without baiting so as to extract soluble constituents or principles.
4.To administer or inject by infusion.

In Philemon 18, we read:

"If he hath wronged thee, or oweth thee ought, put that on mine account;"

"εἰ δέ τι ἠδίκησέν σε ἢ ὀφείλει, τοῦτο ἐμοὶ ἐλλόγα: " (Philemon 18 GNT)

The phrase "put that on mine account" means "impute that to me".

Standing opposed to this is the Greek word “ἐλλόγα” “From en logw, this means “to lay to account”, and id this a so-called “hypostasis” like “egceirein” from en ceiri”

Properly, “imputation” is an accounting term. An example of this is the statement made by the Apostle Paul in the book of Philemon. Paul says to Onesemus that if he has suffered any loss because of the runaway slave Philemon, that he should lay that “to his account”. (cf. Phlm. 18) Any debt that Onesemus accrued from the loss, that he should “charge” that to his account.

The idea being expressed here is that there is a great accounting book. In it, are all the liabilities (specifically our sins) of men on one side, and on the debit (credit) side is the righteousness of Christ. In the saving act of the cross, Christ had mans liabilities charged, laid to His account, imputed to Him. And when the repentant comes to Christ in repentance, believing by faith that He is the Son of God, crucified for their sins, risen from the dead on the third day, our liabilities, our sins, are imputed to Christ, and forgiven, then by imputation, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us.

Paul uses the same Greek root word in Romans 4:3 when he wrote:

"Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness."

"τί γὰρ ἡ γραφὴ λέγει; Ἐπίστευσεν δὲ Ἀβραὰμ τῷ θεῷ, καὶ ἐλογίσθη αὐτῷ εἰς δικαιοσύνην." (Romans 4:3 GNT)

The Grounds of our Justification

A lot has been said thus far. Groundwork must be laid to know where one has come from. The ground on which the believer in Christ is justified, is still today, a constantly debated subject. Depending on one’s personal conviction in denominational beliefs, the doctrine changes. For one, it is an infusion. For another, it is imputation by faith, for another, it is by works. It is for this reason, we need to examine this topic.

The question is: How can a man be just with God? If the word “just” means “good”, i.e.: taken in its moral and not in its judicial sense, then it is absurd to say that a man can be good with the goodness of another, or to say that God can pronounce a man just who is unjust. Robert Bellarmin says: “an Ethiopian clothed in white is not white.” Stephanus Curcellaeus said: “a man can no more be just with the justice of another, than he can be white with the whiteness of another.” Johann Moehler is credited as saying: “It is impossible that anything should appear to God other than it really is; that an unjust man should appear to him, or be pronounced by him just.”

By the righteousness of Christ, it is meant all that He became, all He did, all He suffered to satisfy the demands of divine justice, and merit for His people, the forgiveness of sin and the gift of eternal life. Numerous theologians have spoken of two types of obedience that our Lord rendered: active and passive obedience. As far as “active” obedience is concerned, the Bible does teach that Christ obeyed the Law and all its precepts, and, that He endured its penalty as well. And that this was done in such a sense as to say that His people have done so. They died with Him. They were crucified with Him. They were delivered from the curse of the Law by His being made a curse for us. He was made under the Law, so that He could redeem those who were under the Law. We are freed from the Law by the body of Christ. He was made sin that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. He is the end of the Law for righteousness to all them that believe. It was by His obedience that many were made righteous.

Passive obedience: is meant His sufferings and death, which in scripture, are expressed by His blood. (John Gill) That works must be excluded as a ground for justification is often misunderstood and wrongly used. That justification does not spring from any works we could do is shown but Paul in the example of Abraham. For if justification proceeded from works, then Abraham would have something to boast of, and so would we. We would have every right to stroll around heaven and brag about the works we have done which merited our entrance to a title in heaven.

But, scriptures teach us negatively that it is not due to our own good works. They deny that justification can be by works of the Law. (cf. Rom. 3:20; Gal. 3:11; Eph. 2:9) They also teach that could this be attained, Christ died in vain. (cf. Gal. 2:21; 5:4) They teach that all mankind are tainted by sin, therefore any works done by us would likewise be tainted. (cf. Rom. 3:10) The scriptures also teach that a perfect obedience at all times is required by the Law. (cf. Jas. 2:10) The scriptures likewise teach that if the Law could make alive, then righteousness would have been by the Law. (cf. Gal. 3:21)

These statements show that not only are men not saved by works alone, but not by works mixed with grace. Justification cannot arise, therefore, from the good works of men. (James P. Boyce) Something entirely outside of man must be our ground for justification.


“for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.” –Gal. 2:21 (KJV) The Apostle Paul teaches us that the “Law” is “holy,” “just,” and “good.” (cf. Rom. 7:12) And it is, but the “Law” has a flaw, a fault:

“For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.” –Heb. 8:7 (KJV)

The Law had promises for everything. If you sinned, the Law made provision for atonement. If you committed a crime, the Law had a provision for punishment. If you contracted Leprosy, the Law had a provision for that. If you wanted to convert to Judaism, the Law had a provision for that. But the one thing the Law absolutely could not do was to pronounce the sinner “righteous.” “For if righteousness came by the Law, then Christ died in vain.

In the Old Testament, the name which the Messiah was foretold was:

“The Lord our Righteousness” (cf. Jer. 23:6). Daniel said that he should come here to

“make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness,” –Dan. 9:24 (KJV

The prophet Isaiah said:

“Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.” –Isa. 45:24-25 (KJV)

And speaking of the redeemed, he says:

“I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness,” –Isa. 61:10 (KJV)

Being as since Christ is called “The Lord our Righteousness”, this indicates our righteousness must lie in something besides ourselves. The other point of the Law is that it demands a perfect obedience. Thus James states:

“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” –Jas. 2:10 (KJV)

Strongly opposed to the doctrine that after salvation, works have real merit, is this verse:

“whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” –Gal. 5:4 (KJV)

In Romans 4:6-8, we read:

“Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Here we see two things; God imputing righteousness, and God not imputing sins. These two things are never separate. Unto whom God imputes not sin, He imputes righteousness; likewise, unto whom He imputes righteousness, He imputes not sin. Now we may ask this question: Whose righteousness is it that God imputes, reckons, places to the account of the one who believes?

The answer quite simply is, that righteousness which was wrought out by our Surety, that obedience to the Law which was rendered by our Savior: “the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ” (cf. 2 Pet. 1:1). This righteousness was not only unto all, but “unto all that believe”. (cf. Rom. 3:22)

It is called “the righteousness of God” because it was the righteousness of the God-man Mediator, just as in Acts 20:28 his blood is called the blood of God.

God Bless

Till all are one.
I think you are just another angry anti-Catholic that misrepresents what the CC teaches, looking at them through biased lenses. Salvation or justification by works apart from the grace of Christ is a dead give-away you don't know what you are talking about. It seems every Protestant on line falls for that myth.

To restate predestination in more personal terms:
this doctrine means that God has a plan for each one of us who is open to such a possibility and willing to accept it. This means that each of us who intends on following the will of God has a destiny laid out before us. This divine plan was not something God made up as he went along. It isn’t something he drafted and amended as we grew into adulthood. Rather, as Ephesians tells us, this destiny was set before the foundations of the world. Wow.

Here’s where predestination and free will meet: God has a plan for us, but we must cooperate in that plan. We must choose to accept a destiny that God has set out for us. The fact that we retain freedom in the face of such destiny is one marked difference between the Christian worldview and that of the ancient Romans and Greeks, who grimly resigned themselves to what they saw as the crushing inevitability of an impersonal fate.

In Christianity, destiny is not something that weighs upon us because we retain free will. With free will, then, destiny instead becomes something that lifts us up. Destiny gives us something to choose. It points the way forward to what we are called to do in our freedom.

In this aspect, Christianity is also at odds with the modern view of freedom as an end in itself. Our culture tends to idolize freedom. What matters is not so much what one chooses as the fact that one is allowed to choose. Our society celebrates the right to choose without offering any moral framework in which to guide those choices. (Think I’m exaggerating or over-generalizing? This recent op-ed shows just how far we’ve gone.) With little outside guidance and no absolute standards of behavior, freedom falls back on itself. Perhaps this is what Soren Kirkegaard meant when he spoke of the ‘dizziness’ of freedom.

Christianity, then, avoids the defeatism of destiny without freedom and the dizziness of freedom without destiny. The thrill of the Christian is that he is called, in his freedom, to discover his destiny.
This is the beauty of the doctrine of predestination.
http://catholicexchange.com/church-say-predestination




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kepha31

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The problem is, most RCC members come here, see what I post, and immediately jump on me like blood infested waters around a shark.

Fact of the matter is, I have studied the RCC's position on justification.

Several years ago in seminary, I did a study/paper on just this subject.
You should [deleted by me].

]Here is what I found out from the RCC perspective:

"Roman Catholic Doctrine

Before anything is said on this subject, the writer wishes to point out that many doctrines Christianity as a whole hold dear to come to us through the Catholic Church. They have retained the supernatural element of Christianity throughout. Indeed, we owe a gratitude of thankfulness to God that underneath numerous errors,
That's your opinion, there are no doctrinal errors. The Bible says the Church is infallible and indefectable, based on many indications, so doctrinal error is impossible according to the Bible.
great Gospel truths are preserved. The doctrine of the Trinity, the true Divinity of Christ, the true doctrine regarding His person as God and man in two distinct natures and one person forever, salvation through His blood, regeneration and sanctification through the almighty power of the Holy Spirit, the resurrection of the body, and eternal life are all the doctrines in which the people of God in communion live.

However, on the matter of justification, the Catholic Church has marred the truth as they have almost all other doctrines pertaining to the merits of Christ are made available to our salvation. Catholics share the same view of mankind before salvation as do Protestants. Up to the point of regeneration we can agree, it is from the moment in regeneration (as the Catholic Church teaches, i.e.: baptism) we begin to separate. According to the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 7, we read:

“…the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ…the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise,..the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance, the meritorious cause is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father, the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified finally, the single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills, and according to each one's disposition and cooperation. For though no one can be just except he to whom the merits of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ”

So according to the Catholic scheme, we can sum it up as:

1. God is the efficient cause of our justification, as it is by his power or supernatural grace that the soul is made just.
2. Christ is the meritorious cause, as it is for his sake God grants this saving grace, or influence of the Spirit to the children of men.
3. Inherent righteousness is the formal cause, since thereby the soul is made really just or holy.
4. Faith is the occasional and predisposing cause, as it leads the sinner to seek justification (regeneration) and disposes God to grant the blessing. In this respect it has the merit of congruity only, not that of congruity.
5. Baptism is the essential instrumental cause, as it is only through or by baptism that inherent righteousness is infused or justification, which makes the sinner holy.
6. Good works, all the fruits and exercises of the new life, have real merit and constitute the ground of the Christians title to eternal life.

That about sum it up?
I don't see a problem with 1 & 2, the rest are unfair oversimplifications from a biased perspective.

From an interview with Francis Beckwith, former president of the Evangelical Theological Society:

""...Then I read the Council of Trent, which some Protestant friends had suggested I do. What I found was shocking. I found a document that had been nearly universally misrepresented by many Protestants, including some friends.

I do not believe, however, that the misrepresentation is the result of purposeful deception. But rather, it is the result of reading Trent with Protestant assumptions and without a charitable disposition.

For example, Trent talks about the four causes of justification, which correspond somewhat to Aristotle’s four causes. None of these causes is the work of the individual Christian. For, according to Trent, God’s grace does all the work. However, Trent does condemn “faith alone,” but what it means is mere intellectual assent without allowing God’s grace to be manifested in one’s actions and communion with the Church. This is why Trent also condemns justification by works.

I am convinced that the typical “Council of Trent” rant found on anti-Catholic websites is the Protestant equivalent of the secular urban legend that everyone prior to Columbus believed in a flat earth.
Francis Beckwith Interview

How many non Catholics believe we are justified or saved by intellectual assent without allowing God’s grace to be manifested? Probably none. It was opposed at the Council of Trent as well.
 
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98cwitr

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You should go back to that seminary and demand a refund.

That's your opinion, there are no doctrinal errors. The Bible says the Church is infallible and indefectable, based on many indications, so doctrinal error is impossible according to the Bible. I don't see a problem with 1 & 2, the rest are unfair oversimplifications from a biased perspective.

From an interview with Francis Beckwith, former president of the Evangelical Theological Society:

""...Then I read the Council of Trent, which some Protestant friends had suggested I do. What I found was shocking. I found a document that had been nearly universally misrepresented by many Protestants, including some friends.

I do not believe, however, that the misrepresentation is the result of purposeful deception. But rather, it is the result of reading Trent with Protestant assumptions and without a charitable disposition.

For example, Trent talks about the four causes of justification, which correspond somewhat to Aristotle’s four causes. None of these causes is the work of the individual Christian. For, according to Trent, God’s grace does all the work. However, Trent does condemn “faith alone,” but what it means is mere intellectual assent without allowing God’s grace to be manifested in one’s actions and communion with the Church. This is why Trent also condemns justification by works.

I am convinced that the typical “Council of Trent” rant found on anti-Catholic websites is the Protestant equivalent of the secular urban legend that everyone prior to Columbus believed in a flat earth.
Francis Beckwith Interview

How many non Catholics believe we are justified or saved by intellectual assent without allowing God’s grace to be manifested? Probably none. It was opposed at the Council of Trent as well.

BTW, have you read the SOP of this [Baptist] forum and the CF rules? Tread lightly, sir. You're more than welcome to come ask questions and be communal, but don't come into the Baptist forum and try to debate. Thanks.
 
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kepha31

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BTW, have you read the SOP of this [Baptist] forum and the CF rules? Tread lightly, sir. You're more than welcome to come ask questions and be communal, but don't come into the Baptist forum and try to debate. Thanks.
Noted. I offer my apologies and delete the offending line.
 
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PeaceB

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Here again, just as before, just as was for centuries before the Reformation, our "justification" lies in something you do.

Have you ever read and studies what the word "imputed" means?

Evidently not.

God Bless

Till all are one.
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

The problem is, most RCC members come here, see what I post, and immediately jump on me like blood infested waters around a shark.

Fact of the matter is, I have studied the RCC's position on justification.

Several years ago in seminary, I did a study/paper on just this subject.

Here is what I found out from the RCC perspective:

"Roman Catholic Doctrine

Before anything is said on this subject, the writer wishes to point out that many doctrines Christianity as a whole hold dear to come to us through the Catholic Church. They have retained the supernatural element of Christianity throughout. Indeed, we owe a gratitude of thankfulness to God that underneath numerous errors, great Gospel truths are preserved. The doctrine of the Trinity, the true Divinity of Christ, the true doctrine regarding His person as God and man in two distinct natures and one person forever, salvation through His blood, regeneration and sanctification through the almighty power of the Holy Spirit, the resurrection of the body, and eternal life are all the doctrines in which the people of God in communion live.

However, on the matter of justification, the Catholic Church has marred the truth as they have almost all other doctrines pertaining to the merits of Christ are made available to our salvation. Catholics share the same view of mankind before salvation as do Protestants. Up to the point of regeneration we can agree, it is from the moment in regeneration (as the Catholic Church teaches, i.e.: baptism) we begin to separate. According to the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 7, we read:

“…the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ…the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise,..the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance, the meritorious cause is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father, the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which no man was ever justified finally, the single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills, and according to each one's disposition and cooperation. For though no one can be just except he to whom the merits of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ”

So according to the Catholic scheme, we can sum it up as:

1. God is the efficient cause of our justification, as it is by his power or supernatural grace that the soul is made just.
2. Christ is the meritorious cause, as it is for his sake God grants this saving grace, or influence of the Spirit to the children of men.
3. Inherent righteousness is the formal cause, since thereby the soul is made really just or holy.
4. Faith is the occasional and predisposing cause, as it leads the sinner to seek justification (regeneration) and disposes God to grant the blessing. In this respect it has the merit of congruity only, not that of congruity.
5. Baptism is the essential instrumental cause, as it is only through or by baptism that inherent righteousness is infused or justification, which makes the sinner holy.
6. Good works, all the fruits and exercises of the new life, have real merit and constitute the ground of the Christians title to eternal life.

That about sum it up?

God Bless

Till all are one.
Session 6 of the Council of Trent contains the official teaching of the Catholic Church on justification. It is not a long document.

Have a nice week.
 
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DeaconDean

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Augustine made a mistake and confessed it. The Church teaches predestination, but not Calvin's model.
Chapter 7 [III.]— Augustine Confesses that He Had Formerly Been in Error Concerning the Grace of God.
Calvin invented the heresy of double predestination and it never went away.

Please chose your words more carefully.

According to the rules:

"Flaming and Goading
  • Please treat all members with respect and courtesy through civil dialogue.
  • Do not personally attack (insult, belittle, mock, ridicule) other members or groups of members on CF. Address only the content of the post and not the poster.
  • NO Goading. This includes images, cartoons, or smileys clearly meant to goad. Quoting and then editing another members post to change the original meaning, commonly referred to as "fixed it for you" (FIFY), is considered goading.
  • Offensive derogatory nicknames and egregious inflammatory comments about public figures may be considered goading.
  • Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members, are not Christian is not allowed.
  • If you are flamed, do not respond in-kind. Alert staff to the situation by utilizing the report button."
I would ask that you refrain from using such remarks outside your own forum.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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I think you are just another angry anti-Catholic that misrepresents what the CC teaches, looking at them through biased lenses. Salvation or justification by works apart from the grace of Christ is a dead give-away you don't know what you are talking about. It seems every Protestant on line falls for that myth.

To restate predestination in more personal terms:
this doctrine means that God has a plan for each one of us who is open to such a possibility and willing to accept it. This means that each of us who intends on following the will of God has a destiny laid out before us. This divine plan was not something God made up as he went along. It isn’t something he drafted and amended as we grew into adulthood. Rather, as Ephesians tells us, this destiny was set before the foundations of the world. Wow.

Here’s where predestination and free will meet: God has a plan for us, but we must cooperate in that plan. We must choose to accept a destiny that God has set out for us. The fact that we retain freedom in the face of such destiny is one marked difference between the Christian worldview and that of the ancient Romans and Greeks, who grimly resigned themselves to what they saw as the crushing inevitability of an impersonal fate.

In Christianity, destiny is not something that weighs upon us because we retain free will. With free will, then, destiny instead becomes something that lifts us up. Destiny gives us something to choose. It points the way forward to what we are called to do in our freedom.

In this aspect, Christianity is also at odds with the modern view of freedom as an end in itself. Our culture tends to idolize freedom. What matters is not so much what one chooses as the fact that one is allowed to choose. Our society celebrates the right to choose without offering any moral framework in which to guide those choices. (Think I’m exaggerating or over-generalizing? This recent op-ed shows just how far we’ve gone.) With little outside guidance and no absolute standards of behavior, freedom falls back on itself. Perhaps this is what Soren Kirkegaard meant when he spoke of the ‘dizziness’ of freedom.

Christianity, then, avoids the defeatism of destiny without freedom and the dizziness of freedom without destiny. The thrill of the Christian is that he is called, in his freedom, to discover his destiny.
This is the beauty of the doctrine of predestination.
http://catholicexchange.com/church-say-predestination




FIfkTdp.jpg

So says you.

I know how to interpret the Greek.

Took it in seminary.

So please don't label me as "just another anti-Catholic".

I know what it says.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Plus, no matter how you dance around it, heaven being offered as a reward, as it says plainly, is a works based message.

Plain and simple.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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PeaceB

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Plus, no matter how you dance around it, heaven being offered as a reward, as it says plainly, is a works based message.

Plain and simple.

God Bless

Till all are one.
True, unless God rewards the things that are his own gifts.
 
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