Catalyst to the Russian War.

[Berean Tim]

Israel was among many nations in the empire.

Ezekiel 38 and 39 is an invasion of Israel , not the Persian empire. You're twisting scripture.

 

[Marilyn C]

Of course not. But it takes lot's of reverse engineering to twist Ezekiel 38 into a prophecy of the future. It is kin to fortune telling. Have you noticed Jesus always prophesied so that they would believe when it came to pass? That is, they didn't know anything until the fulfillment connected the dots.

Hi Dave,

`But you brethren, are NOT in darkness that this Day should overtake you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)
`...exhorting one another and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

So how can you `see the day approaching` or not let the `day overtake you as a thief,` unless you know what God has prophesied concerning that Day?

Marilyn.

 

[Dave L]

Hi Dave,

`But you brethren, are NOT in darkness that this Day should overtake you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)
`...exhorting one another and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

So how can you `see the day approaching` or not let the `day overtake you as a thief,` unless you know what God has prophesied concerning that Day?

Marilyn.

How about the Russian Christians?

 

[Dave L]

Ezekiel 38 and 39 is an invasion of Israel , not the Persian empire. You're twisting scripture.

The were a nation inside the empire.

 

[Dave L]

Dave, the issue is not dispensationalism. It is your irrational thinking that Gog/Magog has taken place, when the text says in the latter years and latter days, not in Esther's time.

Latter years of the captivity?

 

[Douggg]

Latter years of the captivity?

In the latter years, latter days, gathered out of the nations.

Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Ezekiel 38:12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

 

[Dave L]

In the latter years, latter days, gathered out of the nations.

Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Ezekiel 38:12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

The empire nations. There were oodles.

 

[solid_core]

In the latter years, latter days, gathered out of the nations.

Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Ezekiel 38:12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

13 Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?

14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:

16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

Its about church taken from various nations.

Some things may be historical what happened in Israel before Christ, most things are spiritual that happened after Christ came in the first century.

The old testament must be understood spiritually and is all fullfiled, because it was about Christ. Israel was only a shadow, symbolic.

When we remember this golden rule, we cannot be trapped in some todays political futurism.

 

[Douggg]

Its about church taken from various nations.

Ezekiel 38 is not talking about the church, because of what it says in Ezekiel 39:23. It is actually Jesus Himself speaking in retrospect in that verse, having returned to earth in Ezekiel 39:21 (future at the end of the 7 years).

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

 

[solid_core]

Ezekiel 38 is not talking about the church, because of what it says in Ezekiel 39:23. It is actually Jesus Himself speaking in retrospect in that verse, having returned to earth in Ezekiel 39:21 (future at the end of the 7 years).

Ezekiel 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

Not sure what you mean.

 

[Douggg]

Not sure what you mean.

Ezekiel 38 and the first part of Ezekiel 39 is about the Gog/Magog invasion on Israel in the latter days.

Following that attempted invasion and subsequent destruction of Gog's army (a feast on the dead in Ezekiel 39:4), there are 7 years, Ezekiel 39:9. The Gog/Magog account ends in Ezekiel 39:16.

That 7 years following Gog/Magog is the 7 years initiated by the Antichrist, as the Jews will make the big error of thinking he is their messiah... which will turn into the disaster of the great tribulation... when he betrays them and goes evil, becoming the beast.

At the end of the 7 years, is Armageddon which the nations of the world attempt to stop Jesus's return and make war on Him. They will be destroyed which is Ezekiel 39:17-20, which corresponds to Revelation 19:17-21.

In Ezekiel 39:21-29, it is Jesus Himself speaking in the text, future of us*, of him having returned to earth, and having just destroyed those armies. In Ezekiel 39:22-29, Jesus, in the future, is recounting why the Jews were scattered into the nations, but have been restored and at that time will be believers that Jesus is the Lord their God, who had entered the world to take on the form of a man to die for their sins, and is the true messiah.

Nothing in Ezekiel 38-39 applies to the church.

* I say future - but not too far into the future.

________________________________________________

Over-view of the end times:

Gog/Magog, Ezekiel 38-39:16
then the seven years.
then Armageddon, Ezekiel 39:17-20
at Jesus's return, Ezekiel 39:21-29

 

[solid_core]

Ezekiel 38 and the first part of Ezekiel 39 is about the Gog/Magog invasion on Israel in the latter days.

Following that attempted invasion and subsequent destruction of Gog's army (a feast on the dead in Ezekiel 39:4), there are 7 years, Ezekiel 39:9. The Gog/Magog account ends in Ezekiel 39:16.

That 7 years following Gog/Magog is the 7 years initiated by the Antichrist, as the Jews will make the big error of thinking he is their messiah... which will turn into the disaster of the great tribulation... when he betrays them and goes evil, becoming the beast.

At the end of the 7 years, is Armageddon which the nations of the world attempt to stop Jesus's return and make war on Him. They will be destroyed which is Ezekiel 39:17-20, which corresponds to Revelation 19:17-21.

In Ezekiel 39:21-29, it is Jesus Himself speaking in the text, future of us*, of him having returned to earth, and having just destroyed those armies. In Ezekiel 39:22-29, Jesus, in the future, is recounting why the Jews were scattered into the nations, but have been restored and at that time will be believers that Jesus is the Lord their God, who had entered the world to take on the form of a man to die for their sins, and is the true messiah.

Nothing in Ezekiel 38-39 applies to the church.

* I say future - but not too far into the future.

________________________________________________

Over-view of the end times:

Gog/Magog, Ezekiel 38-39:16
then the seven years.
then Armageddon, Ezekiel 39:17-20
at Jesus's return, Ezekiel 39:21-29

Why do you think its still relevant to study Ezekiel, in our era? Also, how can you be sure that you have its text well preserved?

 

[Douggg]

Why do you think its still relevant to study Ezekiel, in our era? Also, how can you be sure that you have its text well preserved?

I am not sure about what you mean, but one of the givens of this forum is that the bible is accurate and true.

Our era is the generation that will see Ezekiel 38-39 come to pass.

There are collaborating other text in the bible that support the contents of Ezekiel 38-39. Of Israel becoming a nation again in a single day, Isaiah 66:8, May 14, 1948. And Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews in 1967, signaling the generation that will not pass away in the parable of the fig tree, without witnessing Jesus's return.

And that the alignment of nations that seek Israel's destruction are the muslim nations which militarily are supported by Russia.

Iran's, Persia in the text of Ezekiel 38:5, disposition fits the profile of the Gog/Magog nations.

 

[solid_core]

I am not sure about what you mean, but one of the givens of this forum is that the bible is accurate and true.

Our era is the generation that will see Ezekiel 38-39 come to pass.

There are collaborating other text in the bible that support the contents of Ezekiel 38-39. Of Israel becoming a nation again in a single day, Isaiah 66:8, May 14, 1948. And Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews in 1967, signaling the generation that will not pass away in the parable of the fig tree, without witnessing Jesus's return.

And that the alignment of nations that seek Israel's destruction are the muslim nations which militarily are supported by Russia.

Iran's, Persia in the text of Ezekiel 38:5, disposition fits the profile of the Gog/Magog nations.

My first point is:
Why do you think that Ezekiel is about modern era, about Russia, Iran, Israel etc? Its a book 3,000 years old, why would they written about our days and not something more close to them.

My secont point is:
Have you heard about textual criticism? The New Testament is carefully examined, various manuscripts are discovered that differ from each other so best scholars in the world are compiling them to reconstruct the text close to original. Its evident that the text was changed by copying. There is no such work done with the Old Testament and its quite impossible to do such work because we do not have any old enough manuscripts, so its impossible to reconstruct a text that is close to original with certainity.

My third point is:
Do you believe that "law and prophets till John the baptist"? If so, why do you study it today and try to see our events in it?

 

[Douggg]

There is no such work done with the Old Testament and its quite impossible to do such work because we do not have any old enough manuscripts, so its impossible to reconstruct a text that is close to original with certainity.

The topic you are wanting to introduce is inappropriate for this forum. This forum is based on the bible being accurate and true - to discuss the topic of eschatology.

In the case of Ezekiel 38-39, we can be ascertain of the validity of the text because we are living in the latter days, and the nations given, including Israel a nation again, all line up, with the odds of coincidence are beyond astronomical.

Jesus referenced Daniel (regarding the abomination of desolation standing in holy place, that them in Judea should flee) and the prophets, and the scriptures (writings). The Jews call their bible the Tanach, which is an acronym, from the Hebrew letters of its three components: Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim. Torah is the first five books of what we are referring to as the old testament. Nevi'im are the prophets. Ketuvim are the writings.

In the New Testament, the very statements by Jesus which began Christianity referred to the Tanach's three same components -

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

 

[Douggg]

Do you believe that "law and prophets till John the baptist"? If so, why do you study it today and try to see our events in it?

Some people, at high noon, can stare directly up to the sun, and still cannot see the light.

 

[Douggg]

Why do you think that Ezekiel is about modern era, about Russia, Iran, Israel etc? Its a book 3,000 years old, why would they written about our days and not something more close to them.

Jesus said that the law of Moses (the Torah), the prophets (like Ezekiel), the psalms (the writings) speak of Him. Luke 24:44.

Jesus Himself is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, having returned to earth, 7 years following Gog/Magog. The content of the prior verses, Ezekiel 39:17-21, for a Christian, familiar with Revelation 19:17-21, that it is Jesus Himself speaking in the text of Ezekiel 39:21-29 should be obvious, once it has been point out.

Have you done that yet, comparing Revelation 19:17-21 with Ezekiel 39:17-20 ?

___________________________________________________

Understanding of the over-view of the end times, can be gained by understanding the timeline of Ezekiel 38-39.

Over-view of the end times:

Gog/Magog, Ezekiel 38-39:16
then the seven years.
then Armageddon, Ezekiel 39:17-20
at Jesus's return, Ezekiel 39:21-29

 

[Douggg]

@ solid_core

Here is a chart I made that puts the major end times events in order.

 

[Marilyn C]

How about the Russian Christians?

Hi Dave,

They are part of the Body of Christ, `not in darkness,` and are also pilgrims on this earth. We are NOT of the nations but `called out` of the nations and of Israel. That is the meaning of ekklesia, `called out ones.`

Hope that helps, Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

Its about church taken from various nations.

Some things may be historical what happened in Israel before Christ, most things are spiritual that happened after Christ came in the first century.

The old testament must be understood spiritually and is all fullfiled, because it was about Christ. Israel was only a shadow, symbolic.

When we remember this golden rule, we cannot be trapped in some todays political futurism.

The Body of Christ revelation was not revealed in the Old Testament. And Israel is certainly very real and only held by God amid all the surrounding nations that want to annihilate it.

If you spiritualize the Old Testament you end up with all sorts of nonsense.