Catalonian independence

[mindlight]

Is this really happening?

Anti-police strike grips Catalonia

 

[MyOwnSockPuppet]

Looks like. And it has to be said that bussing in 6,000 extra police (loyal to Madrid) to suppress the referendum with all the grace and subtlety of Sheriff Jim Clark on Edmund Pettus Bridge isn't going to calm the situation down.

If the Catalans can't hold a peaceful referendum without the Guardia Civil putting 800+ people in the emergency room then I don't hold out much hope that they'll remain unmolested, or that they'll remain peaceful for many more of these.
The neighbouring (smaller and less populaced) Basque Country's struggle for independence lasted more than 50 years with more than a thousand killed. How bad would a full-scale Balkanisation of northern Spain be?

Bad enough.

 

[Douger]

A lot of dialogue is needed right now. Both sides are acting stupidly and undemocratically IMO.
Puigdemont seems like an activist using his powers as president to push his independence agenda through regardless of what the Catalan people may or may not actually want.

 

[mindlight]

A lot of dialogue is needed right now. Both sides are acting stupidly and undemocratically IMO.
Puigdemont seems like an activist using his powers as president to push his independence agenda through regardless of what the Catalan people may or may not actually want.

It does seem that the People in Catalonia are more divided on this issue than he is suggesting. Also the full independence option is not necessarily the one they want. More autonomy might be enough. Afterall if Catalonia declares independence Real Madrid will automatically win the league every year without Barcelona to stop them.

 

[mindlight]

Looks like. And it has to be said that bussing in 6,000 extra police (loyal to Madrid) to suppress the referendum with all the grace and subtlety of Sheriff Jim Clark on Edmund Pettus Bridge isn't going to calm the situation down.

If the Catalans can't hold a peaceful referendum without the Guardia Civil putting 800+ people in the emergency room then I don't hold out much hope that they'll remain unmolested, or that they'll remain peaceful for many more of these.
The neighbouring (smaller and less populaced) Basque Country's struggle for independence lasted more than 50 years with more than a thousand killed. How bad would a full-scale Balkanisation of northern Spain be?

Bad enough.

Wisdom is definitely needed right now. But the Catalonian local government seem determined to declare independence and these are not the days of general Franco. How can Spain stop this without making themselves look like the bad guy.

 

[Douger]

Seems like things are calming a little. The Spanish government has apologized for the police brutality and Puigdemont seems to be backing off from declaring independence.

Afterall if Catalonia declares independence Real Madrid will automatically win the league every year without Barcelona to stop them.

Independence would have fascinating ramifications on the European football landscape. So many possible scenarios.

 

[MyOwnSockPuppet]

Wisdom is definitely needed right now. But the Catalonian local government seem determined to declare independence and these are not the days of general Franco. How can Spain stop this without making themselves look like the bad guy.

Not doing things like arresting the head of the Mossos d'Esquadra (the autonomous police in Catalonia) and charging him (in a Madrid court) with sedition for their failure to support the Guardia Civil crackdown?

The only way that I can see for Spain to retain Catalonia is a hell of a lot of carrot, a total abscence of stick and the desparate hope that none of the thousands of very unwelcome Guardia Civil do anything else stupid

 

[DogmaHunter]

I don't understand all these divisive, nationalist "seperation" movements.

What we need going forward is more unity and less de-centralization.
Populists are steering for the exact opposite.

De-centralisation is a never-ending cesspool of going smaller and smaller.
Suppose catalonia becomes independent. What's next? Barcelone who wants to be its own state?

It's ridiculous. Instead of trying to break up Spain... perhaps instead try working towards a more unified Europe instead.

These people are LITERALLY moving in the opposite direction.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Independence would have fascinating ramifications on the European football landscape. So many possible scenarios.

If there is one thing that you can be absolute certain of, is that a separation would change absolutely nothing about soccer.

Catalonians will continue playing in the Spanish national team, because they need Pique and some others.

FC Barcelona, along with all other soccer teams in catalonia, will continue playing in La Liga because there is way to much money involved.

And then there are things like tourism etc.

Which is why this whole separation thingy is simply symbolic nonsense.
They pretend (and lie) about how it would be better for all parties, but just like we have seen with the Brexit (which I still don't believe is actually really going to happen), it ends up with a financial hangover and the realisation that it actually just isn't very realistic.

 

[ananda]

I don't understand all these divisive, nationalist "seperation" movements.

What we need going forward is more unity and less de-centralization.
Populists are steering for the exact opposite.

De-centralisation is a never-ending cesspool of going smaller and smaller.
Suppose catalonia becomes independent. What's next? Barcelone who wants to be its own state?

It's ridiculous. Instead of trying to break up Spain... perhaps instead try working towards a more unified Europe instead.

These people are LITERALLY moving in the opposite direction.

What's wrong with "smaller"? Sounds great to me.

 

[MyOwnSockPuppet]

Suppose catalonia becomes independent. What's next?

The Basques doing the same, and if Madrid acts the same way as it did with the largely peaceful Catalonians I'd be very much surprised if they didn't get more of an eye-for-an-eye reaction.

 

[Douger]

If there is one thing that you can be absolute certain of, is that a separation would change absolutely nothing about soccer.

Catalonians will continue playing in the Spanish national team, because they need Pique and some others.

FC Barcelona, along with all other soccer teams in catalonia, will continue playing in La Liga because there is way to much money involved.

I'm sure they'll have their own national team. Why wouldn't they?
I think it would be super cool if Catalonia had their own league, but it would go against the spirit of this independence movement which seems to be "squeeze out a few more euros".
Barcelona FC will probably express it's nationalism by knocking on the doors of foreign leagues in the order of the size of their Television contracts, starting with England, then France, Spain, Italy etc.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

I don't understand all these divisive, nationalist "seperation" movements.

What we need going forward is more unity and less de-centralization.
Populists are steering for the exact opposite.

De-centralisation is a never-ending cesspool of going smaller and smaller.
Suppose catalonia becomes independent. What's next? Barcelone who wants to be its own state?

It's ridiculous. Instead of trying to break up Spain... perhaps instead try working towards a more unified Europe instead.

These people are LITERALLY moving in the opposite direction.

Was that your attitude to the break up of the USSR?

 

[DogmaHunter]

What's wrong with "smaller"? Sounds great to me.

In today's reality, it's detrimental for all aspects of society.
More bureaucracy, more "government officials" (because very "level" needs its people), more complexity in social structures, etc etc.

It's just in its entirety more expensive to operate/govern and less efficient in every way.

And thus also very divisive, which can't be taken lightly.
All these seperation / nationalistic movements have an engrained tribal mentality of "us versus them". Going forward, there is only "us" and no "them".

That's the goal. That's the road to peace and freedom for all.

 

[DogmaHunter]

The Basques doing the same, and if Madrid acts the same way as it did with the largely peaceful Catalonians I'd be very much surprised if they didn't get more of an eye-for-an-eye reaction.

You kind of missed the point of my comment.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I'm sure they'll have their own national team. Why wouldn't they?

Because they want to win world cups and european cups, and the money that comes with it.

I think it would be super cool if Catalonia had their own league

You might think that. That catalonian and the other spanish soccer teams, most definatly would not. FC Barcelona would see its revenue cut in half at the very least.

General quality of the entire league would go down.

This would not just hurt spanish economy, it would also hurt spanish and european soccer in general. It would even change the face of the "regulars" in the champions league.

Superstars like Messi would suddenly be stuck in "small leagues" and see their paychecks go down. These guys would then transfer to other clubs like the premier league, which in turn would be another hit to spanish football. It would spiral down into a league class comparable to greece or poland or something.

I think you don't really have an idea just HOW MUCH money is involved here and how big a portion this is of the local economy.
Spanish soccer is even a rather big portion of spanish tourism. A lot of people combine a long weekend in Barcelona, with picking up some match against Real Madrid or Atletico or whatever.

Barcelona FC will probably express it's nationalism by knocking on the doors of foreign leagues in the order of the size of their Television contracts, starting with England, then France, Spain, Italy etc.

The size of television contracts are in direct proportion to the quality of the league.
What is there in catalonia of big clubs, besides Barcelona?
The other big ones are not in catalonia. They are in madrid en elsewhere in the rest of spain.

A catalonian league = no Ronaldo, Carrasco, Griezman, Modric, Kroos, ....
All that would be left would be the couple of stars in FC Barcelona. And most of them (Messi and Suarez first) would move on to other leagues rather fast. As explained above.

I fully expect a typical arrogant Brexit situation... where "independence" actually REALLY means "we want to get rid of the downsides that cost money, but would like to keep all the advantages because you know... they are nice".

 

[DogmaHunter]

Was that your attitude to the break up of the USSR?

Right, right...

Because catalonia is a "satellite" state that is "occupied by force" by the spanish dictator and of which the citizens who like freedom are put in concentration camps / goulags....

Perhaps you should make comparisions that actually make sense.
We aren't talking about a fundamentalist communist authoritarian regime where human rights mean jack. We are talking about Spain. A western european democratic country.

 

[Douger]

The size of television contracts are in direct proportion to the quality of the league.
What is there in catalonia of big clubs, besides Barcelona?
The other big ones are not in catalonia. They are in madrid en elsewhere in the rest of spain.

Barca has been supportive of the independence movement which I'm sure means that they want to play in a homely Scotland style all Catalan league with four games a year against Girona, Espanyol and L Hospitalet and other quaint, yet Catalan, clubs.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Right, right...

Because catalonia is a "satellite" state that is "occupied by force" by the spanish dictator and of which the citizens who like freedom are put in concentration camps / goulags....

From Madrid's reaction, one could almost be forgiven for thinking so.

We aren't talking about a fundamentalist communist authoritarian regime where human rights mean jack. We are talking about Spain. A western european democratic country.

From where I'm looking, I can't see much difference. Tear gas and rubber bullets do the same thing under liberal democracy as under communism. And I'm not even a sympathizer of the Catalonian independence movement...

 

[ananda]

In today's reality, it's detrimental for all aspects of society.
More bureaucracy, more "government officials" (because very "level" needs its people), more complexity in social structures, etc etc.

It's just in its entirety more expensive to operate/govern and less efficient in every way.

And thus also very divisive, which can't be taken lightly.
All these seperation / nationalistic movements have an engrained tribal mentality of "us versus them". Going forward, there is only "us" and no "them".

That's the goal. That's the road to peace and freedom for all.

Who is "us", and who gets to define "us" or "them"?