Catalonian independence

[DogmaHunter]

From Madrid's reaction, one could almost be forgiven for thinking so.

From where I'm looking, I can't see much difference. Tear gas and rubber bullets do the same thing under liberal democracy as under communism. And I'm not even a sympathizer of the Catalonian independence movement...

I don't think I commented on how the police force handled it.

Although it would be interesting to see how the US police would handle such a situation when, let's say, a few million people from some city/regions/state decide that they want to be independent from the US and hold illegal referendums and stuff.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Who is "us", and who gets to define "us" or "them"?

"us" would be en ever expanding group until it encompasses all humans.

I don't think of my fellow humans as "them" per say. It's seperatism and tribalism that is obsessed with the "them" part.

 

[ananda]

"us" would be en ever expanding group until it encompasses all humans.

I don't think of my fellow humans as "them" per say. It's seperatism and tribalism that is obsessed with the "them" part.

So you'd be OK with Islamics (the group with the highest growth & multiplication rate) to dictate their centralization plans to the rest of us?

 

[DogmaHunter]

So you'd be OK with Islamics (the group with the highest growth & multiplication rate) to dictate their centralization plans to the rest of us?

We are talking about Catalonians. These are european spanish people with mostly the same judeo-christian cultural background as the rest of us west europeans.

They live in a secular democracy and aren't calling for dismantling the secular west and install a brutal fundamentalist religious dictatorship.

Your comparision does not add up and its only intent seems to be to try and make me look bad by implying I agree with such nonsense, perhaps in an effort to not discuss the actual topic?
Well, that, and off course, some good ol' badly hidden islam-bashing.

 

[ananda]

We are talking about Catalonians. These are european spanish people with mostly the same judeo-christian cultural background as the rest of us west europeans.

They live in a secular democracy and aren't calling for dismantling the secular west and install a brutal fundamentalist religious dictatorship.

Your comparision does not add up and its only intent seems to be to try and make me look bad by implying I agree with such nonsense, perhaps in an effort to not discuss the actual topic?

The concept is exactly the same; and, after all, you wrote in reference to "all humans", not "all Judaeo-Christians".

Well, that, and off course, some good ol' badly hidden islam-bashing.

I find Islam to be an abhorrent ideology that would fit under "wrong view" in Buddhism.

 

[DogmaHunter]

The concept is exactly the same; and, after all, you wrote in reference to "all humans", not "all Judaeo-Christians".

It is not. Catalonians aren't religious terrorists who want to destroy Europe, America and secular democracy along with it.

And yes, I said "all humans". I also said "the ever expanding group".
Which means that there are people around, still not part of the "us" group.

And it's not that I don't wish to include them in "us". It's they that wish to not be part of "us" and instead refer to us as "them".

I'm not the one who is tribal minded. It's the tribalistic people who set themselves apart.
I'm all for freedom, solidarity, equal opportunity and inclusion of all people, using the simple principles of "live and let live" and mutual respect for eachothers freedoms.

I invite everyone to join in and do so indiscriminantly.
It is the choice of tribalistic minded people to oppose this freedom, solidarity and mutual respect.

I can't change that. I can only try and convince them that such division can and will only lead to misery and suffering.

In the case of jihadists, not only are they not going in on the offer, they are spitting on it, declaring themselves an enemy and calling for our destruction. That's quite different from what catalonians are doing.

I find Islam to be an abhorrent ideology that would fit under "wrong view" in Buddhism.

I find most all religions to be abhorrent ideologies.
But I can easily find a way to coexist with people who believe abhorrent things as long as they can return that favor.

I also realise that it is the ONLY way to build a functional, peacefull and free society which can provide well-being and prosperity to ALL its citizens - regardless of religion, race, culture, language, hair style, etc.

Jihadists are "easy" in that sense because they are diametrically opposed to overall western thought. But as we see in Catalonia, people don't require being on opposite side of the fence in order to have disagreement or tribalistic mentalities to completely run out of control to the detriment of society.


The way forward, is together.
Separatism and nationalism are the cancer of today's western societies.

 

[ananda]

It is not. Catalonians aren't religious terrorists who want to destroy Europe, America and secular democracy along with it.

And yes, I said "all humans". I also said "the ever expanding group".
Which means that there are people around, still not part of the "us" group.

And it's not that I don't wish to include them in "us". It's they that wish to not be part of "us" and instead refer to us as "them".

I'm not the one who is tribal minded. It's the tribalistic people who set themselves apart.
I'm all for freedom, solidarity, equal opportunity and inclusion of all people, using the simple principles of "live and let live" and mutual respect for eachothers freedoms.

I invite everyone to join in and do so indiscriminantly.
It is the choice of tribalistic minded people to oppose this freedom, solidarity and mutual respect.

I can't change that. I can only try and convince them that such division can and will only lead to misery and suffering.

In the case of jihadists, not only are they not going in on the offer, they are spitting on it, declaring themselves an enemy and calling for our destruction. That's quite different from what catalonians are doing.



I find most all religions to be abhorrent ideologies.
But I can easily find a way to coexist with people who believe abhorrent things as long as they can return that favor.

I also realise that it is the ONLY way to build a functional, peacefull and free society which can provide well-being and prosperity to ALL its citizens - regardless of religion, race, culture, language, hair style, etc.

Jihadists are "easy" in that sense because they are diametrically opposed to overall western thought. But as we see in Catalonia, people don't require being on opposite side of the fence in order to have disagreement or tribalistic mentalities to completely run out of control to the detriment of society.


The way forward, is together.
Separatism and nationalism are the cancer of today's western societies.

Do the Catalonians possess the right and freedom to "live & let live" as they wish, as a free Republic, apart from the Monarchy of Spain?