Casting crowns

[bibletruth469]

If we are in Christ as He is the head and we are the body, then who are the elders that cast their crowns to His feet?

Revelation 4:9-11
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 “You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”

A great source for end times is a website called Gotquestions.org. Put in a search " who are the 24 elders of revelation ?". It is in my opinion, an awesome website!

Anyway , I believe that the 24 elders in rev 4 :4 are the raptured church in heaven . They are unlikely angels. The Greek word translated as ' elders ' always refers to men. The white garments that the elders wear is also a representation of believers in Christ. White symbolizes righteousness imputed to us at salvation .

The golden crowns translated in the Greek refers to a victor's crown . They are worn by those in Christ that have successfully won the victory. Rev2:10, 2 Tim 4:8, James 1:12.

The elders can not represent Israel but at the time of the vision, Israel as a nation hadn't been redeemed yet.

In conclusion, I believe that they represent the raptured church in heaven. The church sings a song of redemption rev5:10. The crowns of victory were prepared for them by Christ Himself. John 14:1-4.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I found this on an argument for pretrib site (in fact I can't find anything not from a pretrib site) and it just seems to me that the second argument (the church later mentioned in Rev) is consistantly used to justify the stance on the elders in the earlier mention. There is no scripturural reference from anywhere else in the bible. I've referenced scripture from other parts of the bible that I think refute these. jmho


<snip>It is likely that the twenty-four elders refer to believers also.

In the KJV, Revelation 5:9-10 reveals the twenty-four elders praising God and declaring themselves grateful for their redemption. In the NASB, the same passage shows the elders praising God for the salvation of the nations in the third person, not necessarily including themselves in the mix. Going with the idea that the KJV has it right, it makes sense also that the elders are clothed in white (Revelation 4:4) because that matches the description of the bride in Revelation 19:8 and of the promise to the church in Revelation 3:5. That they wear golden crowns is consistent with the fact that believers sit on thrones (Revelation 4:4) and rule with Christ Who has a golden crown as well (Revelation 14:14). Revelation 2:10 and James 1:15 also speak of a crown of life for believers. Revelation 4:4 depicts the elders as sitting on thrones, and then Revelation 20:4 picks up on that thought seamlessly speaking of those who sit on thrones. It makes sense if they represent believers because then they will have already been translated into their heavenly bodies at the rapture. Then the rest (Revelation 20:4), any saints who actually survived the tribulation, are harvested by angels (Mark 13:27, Matthew 24:31) and taken to the first resurrection where they are given new bodies. All saints then have new bodies and reign with Christ in the millennial period (Revelation 20:6).
Relevant Bible Teaching » Arguments for a Pre-Tribulation Rapture

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Perhaps my greatest objection is the indifference that is being paid to the authority angels have at this time, and even tho I know there is no mention of crowns for angels, the fact that they have ruling positions over most of creation at this time is beyond question imo. They have never left their position of authority as Jude says, so altho they are servants of God, messengers to earth, they still are in the position of authority. Rulers of the heavenlies, as I have stated previously with scripture.
Nevertheless, since I don`t believe the last chapter of Revelations coincides with the 4th I can`t agree with the traditional interpretation. But thanks for listening

<snip>The Biblical view of the universe is not the modern one of vast reaches of barren space interrupted every couple of million miles or so by flying dead boulders. The Biblical view of the universe is that it is teeming and throbbing with life everywhere. The cosmos is heavily populated with "legions" and "myriads" of angelic beings, of various ranks (Colossians 1:16) and "species" (see, for instance, the descriptions in Ezekiel 1:5-25 and Revelation 4:6-8). Angels are associated with astronomical phenomena throughout the Bible (Judges 5:20; Job 38:7; Isaiah 14:13; Matthew 24:29; Jude 13; Revelation 1:20; 8:10-12; 9:1;12:4) as well as with the activity of the weather: wind, storms, and lightning are spoken of in connection with the actions of God and the angels in both blessing and curse (Genesis 8:1; 41:27; Exodus 10:13,19; 14:21; 15:10; 19:16; Numbers 11:31; Psalm 18:10; 104:3,4; 107:25; 135:7; 147:18;148:8; Ezekiel 1:4ff; Matthew 24:31; John 3:8; Acts 2:2; Revelation 7:1-3; 8:5,7; 16:8, 17, 18). Clearly, the Biblical world view does not attribute changes in weather to impersonal "forces" or "processes:"

He makes the clouds his chariot
and rides on the wings of the wind.
He makes winds his messengers [angels],
flames of fire his servants. (Psalm 104:3, 4, NIV)<snip>

Therefore it must be assumed that ruling in the millennium for us can only mean a counterpart now

.


​

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

dang I can't seem to let this go
Proof that angels have thrones:

Isaiah 14:12-14
12 &#8220;How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!
13 &#8220;But you said in your heart,
&#8216;I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne above the stars of God,
And I will sit on the mount of assembly
In the recesses of the north.
14 &#8216;I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.&#8217;

Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth,
visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities&#8212;
all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Ok, I quit lol

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

A great source for end times is a website called Gotquestions.org. Put in a search " who are the 24 elders of revelation ?". It is in my opinion, an awesome website!

Anyway , I believe that the 24 elders in rev 4 :4 are the raptured church in heaven . They are unlikely angels. The Greek word translated as ' elders ' always refers to men. The white garments that the elders wear is also a representation of believers in Christ. White symbolizes righteousness imputed to us at salvation .

The golden crowns translated in the Greek refers to a victor's crown . They are worn by those in Christ that have successfully won the victory. Rev2:10, 2 Tim 4:8, James 1:12.

The elders can not represent Israel but at the time of the vision, Israel as a nation hadn't been redeemed yet.

In conclusion, I believe that they represent the raptured church in heaven. The church sings a song of redemption rev5:10. The crowns of victory were prepared for them by Christ Himself. John 14:1-4.

I'm just going to go one more in saying that angels have been introduced as men wearing white. I have addressed the other issues in various places in the thread.

matthew
After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow

Luke
While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here; he has risen!


Elders

<snip>
Rev 4:2 The elders here are not the elders of the church but the elders of the angels, because here, before the Lord's second coming, they are sitting on thrones already (cf. Matt. 19:28; Rev. 20:4). Among God's creation the angels are the most ancient ones. Their elders are the elders of the whole creation of God. That they sit on thrones with golden crowns on their heads indicates that they must be the ones who rule the universe until the millennial kingdom, when the authority to rule the earth will be given to the overcoming saints (Heb. 2:5-9; Rev. 2:26-27; 20:4). That they are clothed in white garments and have a harp and golden bowls full of incense (5:8) indicates that now they are also priests before God; in the millennial kingdom, however, the reigning overcomers will be the priests of God and of Christ (20:6). The elders' golden crowns indicate that they are also ruling ones. Therefore, they are priests serving God and kings reigning over His creation. <snip>
.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

If the term elder means men then would that not make all the church elders and more importantly that Greek definition is used to not ordain women.

The One who sits on the throne is the Father and Christ is standing. Why do the saints sit while Christ stands? And if saints why are they already crowned and Christ has to wait until chap 20? The church cannot recieve the glory before the Lord.

After Rev 19:4 there's no more mention of the elders, if it's the church where did they go?

Ok, so now I'm getting really bored with talking to myself hehe

.

 

[Bible2]

maid in His image said in post 1:

If we are in Christ as He is the head and we are the body, then who are the elders that cast their crowns to His feet?

The 24 elders (Revelation 4:4) could be 24 chief angels, who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish chief priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.

At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and the 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and the 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as human singers on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which are the words of a female millworker).

The 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.

Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12).

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The 24 elders (Revelation 4:4) could be 24 chief angels, who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish chief priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven.

At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and the 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and the 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as human singers on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which are the words of a female millworker).

The 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns.

Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12).

Yes, there's so much to refute the traditional belief that is based SOLELY on IF the KJV translation is correct and every other translation is wrong.
(see post 15 then check your own bible)

 

[heavenlessstar]

Use the Blue Letter Bible online which will give you the original language of the scripture. The King James Version is the best translation to go by but others are useful too. Here is the word used for "us" in Revelation 5:9

h&#275;mas
&#7969;&#956;&#8118;&#962;

Greek Lexicon :: G2248 (KJV)

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Use the Blue Letter Bible online which will give you the original language of the scripture. The King James Version is the best translation to go by but others are useful too. Here is the word used for "us" in Revelation 5:9

h&#275;mas
&#7969;&#956;&#8118;&#962;

Greek Lexicon :: G2248 (KJV)

It's a good place to go to confirm that KJV is the only one holding to that interpretation. There's a lot of conflict/ discussion of the Greek knowledge at the time of King James. Nevertheless the Greek meaning can place both interpretations as correct according to Hertenza, I didn't look it up myself. Kinda moot as proof unfortunately. The Stronge's concordance is a supplement to KJV isn't it?
Anyway I have no idea how any of this affects anything. They're just things that I find that make you wanna go hmnnnn

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Revelation Commentary : Chapter Four
<snip>
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Revelation 4:10-11[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](1) The twenty-four elders (2) will (a) fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and (b) will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and (c) will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, "worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for (3) You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1. The twenty-four elders = this will be the response of the twenty-four elders to the praise, honor and glory of the living creatures.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2. Will = indicates a future event. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]a. Fall down before Him = this is the first of a two-part action.
b. Worship Him = this is the second of a two-part action. In ancient worship, one both bowed and offered verbal praise.
c. Cast their crowns before the throne = some in misidentifying the twenty-four elders have suggested that believers will cast their crowns before the throne of God. However, this is poorly defended in Scripture.[/FONT]
​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3. You created all things = of all the possible comments available to the twenty-four elders, they focus on the fact that God alone is creator of all that is. This statement can be dismissed, but it cannot be discredited. Creation is a work of God, the Father and not an accident or the result of random chance.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It is clear that chapter 4 is dedicated to the exalted God who sits on the throne. This is none other than God, the Father. Chapter 5 will focus on the Lamb, who is none other than God, the Son.<snip>[/FONT]
​

. The twenty-four elders = this will be the response of the twenty-four elders to the praise, honor and glory of the living creatures.
You can see the response of the elders to the multitudes in Rev 19:1,4

It seems one can go on and on in favor of the ancient ones as elders. I know some things I looked up were off a bit, but I won't say anything if you won't...lol....

 

[Clay Vessel]

Maid, you said: In heaven but not in Christ, doesn't make sense. Everything in heaven has it's counterpart on earth...on earth as it is in heaven...I believe the elders here are angels that rule the heavenlies

It is not true that everything in Heaven has its counterpart on earth. When Jesus prayed what we know as the Lord's Prayer, He said to His Father, "Let Your Kingdom come. Let Your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven." That doesn't equate to what you said.

Since you referred me to this thread from the other one, Maid, let me just say that the four beasts and the 24 elders are all greatly honored Christians who served God at sometime in history, whose holy lives allowed them to be in the Throne Room of Heaven. It could be that they are the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles, but the Bible doesn't make that clear. It doesn't matter.

We know they were people of God and not angels because Revelation 5:9 says "And they sang a new song, saying, 'You are worthy to take the book and to open the seals thereof: for You were slain and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and have made us unto our God, kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.'"

This verse negates your premise that they are giving up their crowns so others can take them up. They take off their crowns in homage to the King of kings and Lord of lords. It is an act of honor, not a giving up of their reward. They had already been told that they would rule on the earth. They could not sing the song of the redeemed unless they had actually been saved from sin, because only truth can be spoken in Heaven.

You said: " How can they be if we are seated with Him in the heavenlies?" We are in the spiritual "heavenlies" with the Lord. We worship Him in spirit and in truth. We are not actually sitting in Heaven with Him right now. That day will come and it will be wonderful!

Maid, you said: "You are describing the New Jerusalem which is the church but how can they be the city (church) when in Rev 4 occurs where it does? Before the day of the Lord?

The New Jerusalem is not the Church, but it is the Holy City that comes down out of Heaven, found in Revelation 21:2 and 21:10. It is also known as the Tabernacle of God. I believe we will be in it when it comes down to the earth. Verses 10 through 25 describes what the New Jerusalem looks like, so it definitely is not the "church" made up of God's saints. It is the city from which Jesus will rule during the thousand years of His reign on earth.

Maid, you said: "From the other thread that prompted this I assume that the bride of Christ will take her rightful place and that submission of the woman (bride) to the Bridegroom (Christ) will be the platform for the angels to step down (cast their crown for the body of Christ to take up) and allow the overcomers to reign."

It is strange that you would presume that the angels will step down from their positions so we can step into their angelic shoes. That supposition is not scripturally based. The verse you quoted doesn't say what you are implying. The angels have been in Heaven serving God for eons. Their duties and positions in Heaven will not stop because we arrive there.

Hebrews 1:3-5 is talking about Jesus, Who is far better than the angels. He is GOD. There is nothing in this verse that says they will no longer retain their positions and duties in Heaven.

Hebrews 2:5 is saying that in the world to come, it is the saints that will rule and reign with Jesus on the earth and the angels will maintain their positions in Heaven. We will be back on the earth serving as kings and priests unto God.

1 Corinthians 11:10 is best understood in the New Living Translations. It says: "So a woman should wear a covering on her head as a sign of authority because the angels are watching. This covering is her hair, since it was talking in an earlier verse that it was a shame for a woman to cut or shave her head. There is nothing in this verse that says the angels will be stepping down from their jobs in Heaven.

When it is talking about the saints judging angels, it refers to us judging the fallen angels who rebelled against God. The ones in Heaven chose to serve God and will not be judged, so they will not give up their duties to God.

I, too, believe that we will retain our crowns which are a reward for service, but in the presence of the God of the Universe, I will be more than willing to cast it down at His beautiful feet so that I can honor Him.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Here is the reason for confusion about who is doing what. Check out all the bible references using them compared to the one KJV using us. The elders are singing

Revelation 5:9-10
New International Version (NIV)
9 And they sang a new song, saying:
&#8220;You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.&#8221;

Revelation 5:9-10
American Standard Version (ASV)
9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth

Revelation 5:9-10
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 5:9-10
The Message (MSG)
6-10 So I looked, and there, surrounded by Throne, Animals, and Elders, was a Lamb, slaughtered but standing tall. Seven horns he had, and seven eyes, the Seven Spirits of God sent into all the earth. He came to the One Seated on the Throne and took the scroll from his right hand. The moment he took the scroll, the Four Animals and Twenty-four Elders fell down and worshiped the Lamb. Each had a harp and each had a bowl, a gold bowl filled with incense, the prayers of God&#8217;s holy people. And they sang a new song:
Worthy! Take the scroll, open its seals.
Slain! Paying in blood, you bought men and women,
Bought them back from all over the earth,
Bought them back for God.
Then you made them a Kingdom, Priests for our God,
Priest-kings to rule over the earth.

Revelation 5:9-10
New International Version (NIV)
9 And they sang a new song, saying:
&#8220;You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.&#8221;

Revelation 5:9-10
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
9 They sing a new song:
&#8220;You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God
saints from[a] every tribe and language and people and nation;
10 you have made them to be a kingdom and priests serving our God,
and they will reign on earth.&#8221;

It seems you may not have read the whole thread. Since this is the point referenced in the other thread I stand by what I said as well as my disclaimers

 

[Clay Vessel]

I looked the word "us" (which is what the KJV says) up in the original Greek and the word is "hemas" pronounced "hay-mas" which is a personal plural ie: we, us, our...in this case US and WE. The other translations have written it incorrectly. I'm not a KJV-only person, but the original language in which the Bible was written is correct.

Blessings to you, dear one. Time will reveal all and in the long run, what our relationship is with Jesus is all that matters.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I looked the word "us" (which is what the KGV says) up in the original Greek and the word is "hemas" pronounced "hay-mas" which is a personal plural ie: we, us, our...in this case US and WE. The other translations have written it incorrectly. I'm not a KGV-only person, but the original language in which the Bible was written is correct.

Blessings to you, dear one. Time will reveal all and in the long run, what our relationship is with Jesus is all that matters.

Yes that's also been brought up in the thread but if you think logically about that the translators of all other bibles other than the KJV considered the verse as meaning them and not us.

 

[Interplanner]

I don't know what happened here, it is not a textual note in the UBS / Metger Greek text. Instead there is a question on "for God" in v9 and a few texts say "we will reign" on v10 even though the same texts have "them" for "made them a kingdom."

'hemon' would be pronounced HAY-mone

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I don't know what happened here, it is not a textual note in the UBS / Metger Greek text. Instead there is a question on "for God" in v9 and a few texts say "we will reign" on v10 even though the same texts have "them" for "made them a kingdom."

'hemon' would be pronounced HAY-mone

It's a unique interpretation held by King James principle being that "we" will reign that forces any pretribber to become a KJ only adherent. No other interpretor of the bible believed that. The rest of the intrepators obviously adhered to the belief that "they" will reign.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The 24 elders seem to be what the NT refers to as - elect angels.
We are charged before, but only up to about when Jesus Christ
returns from being seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven.

When He returns - the kingdoms will become of our Lord and of His Christ.

Rev. 11 refers then back to the set of 24 elders that was seen as seated
in Rev. 4.

There is more than one set of 24 elders in Revelation.

Rev. 5 does not use the definite article, so a new set has shown up.

Did John see the sealed book in Rev. 4, but first just describes the
throne scene?
How would the sealed book just suddenly appear?
John didn't say that he saw it being given to the One seated on the
throne.

The elders in Rev 4 appear to be the elder of angels, the most ancient ones, already seated on thrones before the Lord's second coming. (Matt. 19:28; Rev. 20:4) Thrones with golden crowns must indicate that they are the ones who rule the universe until the millennial kingdom, when the authority to rule the earth will be given to the overcoming saints (Heb. 2:5-9; Rev. 2:26-27; 20:4) That they are clothed in white garments and have a harp and golden bowls full of incense (5:8) indicates that now they are also priests before God; in the millennial kingdom, however, the reigning overcomers will be the priests of God and of Christ (20:6). The elders' golden crowns indicate that they are also ruling ones. Therefore, they are priests serving God and kings reigning over His creation
It's been a few years since I was studying this but it hinges many beliefs systems that may be gaining more perspective than the former traditional systems.