Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,327
14,493
Vancouver
Visit site
✟304,048.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
If we are in Christ as He is the head and we are the body, then who are the elders that cast their crowns to His feet?

Revelation 4:9-11
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 “You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”
 

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Mar 27, 2007
34,437
3,872
On the bus to Heaven
✟60,078.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
If we are in Christ as He is the head and we are the body, then who are the elders that cast their crowns to His feet?

Revelation 4:9-11
9 Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying:
11 “You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”

They are the 12 elders that represent the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles (also elders) which represent the Christian church.
 
Upvote 0

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,327
14,493
Vancouver
Visit site
✟304,048.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
They are the 12 elders that represent the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles (also elders) which represent the Christian church.
How can they be if we are seated with Him in the heavenlies? You are describing the New Jerusalem which is the church but how can they be the city (church) when in Rev 4 occurs where it does? Before the day of the Lord?
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Mar 27, 2007
34,437
3,872
On the bus to Heaven
✟60,078.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
How can they be if we are seated with Him in the heavenlies? You are describing the New Jerusalem which is the church but how can they be the city (church) when in Rev 4 occurs where it does? Before the day of the Lord?

All of the 24 elders are in Heaven and sitting in the thrones around the throne of God. In the New Jerusalem the gates are named after the elders of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 foundation stones are named after the 12 apostles.

The crowns are the crowns of righteousness (reward) that they obtained for finishing the race (see 2 Tim. 4:8).
 
Upvote 0

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,327
14,493
Vancouver
Visit site
✟304,048.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
All of the 24 elders are in Heaven and sitting in the thrones around the throne of God. In the New Jerusalem the gates are named after the elders of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 foundation stones are named after the 12 apostles.
In heaven but not in Christ, doesn't make sense. Everything in heaven has it's counterpart on earth...on earth as it is in heaven...I believe the elders here are angels that rule the heavenlies
The crowns are the crowns of righteousness (reward) that they obtained for finishing the race (see 2 Tim. 4:8).
We will have our crowns for many things but it's not suggested that we give them up, in fact we are a royal priesthood so would keep the crowns.

Here are a few verses as well as the main one in the op that I feel relate to angels giving up their place/crown to the bride in Christ

1 Corinthians 6:2-4
2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge?


Hebrews 1:3-5
3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Hebrews 2:4
God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying:
“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?


Some angels will keep their place

Revelation 22:7-9
7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Mar 27, 2007
34,437
3,872
On the bus to Heaven
✟60,078.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
In heaven but not in Christ, doesn't make sense. Everything in heaven has it's counterpart on earth...on earth as it is in heaven...I believe the elders here are angels that rule the heavenlies We will have our crowns for many things but it's not suggested that we give them up, in fact we are a royal priesthood so would keep the crowns.

The elders can't be angels because they are wearing white robes and have crowns of victory which implies conflict and endurance.

Here are a few verses as well as the main one in the op that I feel relate to angels giving up their place/crown to the bride in Christ

1 Corinthians 6:2-4
2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? 4 If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge?
Since "we" shall judge angels then the 24 elders in thrones cannot be angels.

Hebrews 1:3-5
3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Sure but this is speaking about Jesus.

Hebrews 2:4
God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying:
“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
Since He has not put the world to come under the subjection of angels then angels do not inhabit thrones in heaven.


Some angels will keep their place

Revelation 22:7-9
7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”
The main teaching here is that John fell on his knees and worshiped the angel but the angel corrected him by reminding him that he (the angel) is a fellow worker not a deity. I prefer the NASB translation of this verse which makes it a bit clearer.

8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me; 9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant[e] with you and your comrades[f] the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”
 
Upvote 0

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,327
14,493
Vancouver
Visit site
✟304,048.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Revelation 4:10
10 The twenty-four elders will afall before Him who sits upon the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever; and they will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
According to the preceding verses, this implies that when the redeemed saints — represented by the man among the four living creatures, who are redeemed — have been perfected and glorified to be the proper priests and kings (20:6), the temporary priests and kings, the twenty-four angelic elders, will resign from their offices. This is implied by the fact that they will cast their crowns before the throne.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

The elders are the holders of the cistern of the prayers of the saints, so they are not the saints. Also this looks like where the image of angels with harps comes from, no doubt.

Revelation 5:8
Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Judging is a thing yet to come.
 
Upvote 0

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,327
14,493
Vancouver
Visit site
✟304,048.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
From the other thread that prompted this I assume that the bride of Christ will take her rightful place and that submission of the woman (bride) to the Bridegroom (Christ) will be the platform for the angels to step down (cast their crown for the body of Christ to take up) and allow the overcomers to reign.

1 Corinthians 11:9-11
9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,327
14,493
Vancouver
Visit site
✟304,048.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Whether this is a clear explanation of those that cast crowns I'm not certain, but I thought I would share.
Notes

A. Who are these elders?
Twelve represent the true believers of Israel and twelve represent the faithful church. By having them seated together the unity of God’s people is affirmed. Saved men and women from both covenants will be joined into one new family in heaven. This same truth is expressed in Revelation 21:12-14: The New Jerusalem will have twelve gates named for the twelve tribes of Israel (21:12) and twelve foundation stones named for the twelve apostles of Christ (21:14).
This is the traditional believe
1) Note: “Angels are never said to be given crowns though believers are (2Ti 4:8; Jas 1:12; 1Pt 5:4; Rev 2:10)” (Ryrie Study Bible, footnote).
Believers receiving crowns is not in question.
2) Exactly who these people are is uncertain (Mt 20:17-28), but I believe I know at least two names (Mt 17:1-3).
This says nothing.
If there is further that you think pertains I didn't see it. I don't usually do peoples homework by looking things up but this subject is the heart of gospel.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,327
14,493
Vancouver
Visit site
✟304,048.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I think the casting of crowns represents the surrendering of ego and the acknowledging of the Lamb as the object of all glory and praise.
so you think it's completely symbolic?
 
Upvote 0

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,327
14,493
Vancouver
Visit site
✟304,048.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Yes, I would go along with that. Remember that it was ego that got Lucifer booted out.
Booted out of heaven but do I hear you saying you think the elders in the heavens are just symbols of surrender to the lamb now away from self?
 
Upvote 0

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,327
14,493
Vancouver
Visit site
✟304,048.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Here is the reason for confusion about who is doing what. Check out all the bible references using them compared to the one KJV using us. The elders are singing

Revelation 5:9-10
New International Version (NIV)
9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

Revelation 5:9-10
American Standard Version (ASV)
9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth

Revelation 5:9-10
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 5:9-10
The Message (MSG)
6-10 So I looked, and there, surrounded by Throne, Animals, and Elders, was a Lamb, slaughtered but standing tall. Seven horns he had, and seven eyes, the Seven Spirits of God sent into all the earth. He came to the One Seated on the Throne and took the scroll from his right hand. The moment he took the scroll, the Four Animals and Twenty-four Elders fell down and worshiped the Lamb. Each had a harp and each had a bowl, a gold bowl filled with incense, the prayers of God’s holy people. And they sang a new song:
Worthy! Take the scroll, open its seals.
Slain! Paying in blood, you bought men and women,
Bought them back from all over the earth,
Bought them back for God.
Then you made them a Kingdom, Priests for our God,
Priest-kings to rule over the earth.

Revelation 5:9-10
New International Version (NIV)
9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

Revelation 5:9-10
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
9 They sing a new song:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God
saints from[a] every tribe and language and people and nation;
10 you have made them to be a kingdom and priests serving our God,
and they will reign on earth.”
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,327
14,493
Vancouver
Visit site
✟304,048.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I did not have the answer you were looking for so I just did a little surfing to help. I'm so sorry you had to be so condescending. I will not intrude on your Study any longer. Have a Godly day.
No m'bad. I'm not used to a forum that looks up references. Usually snips are supplied to cover the basics. Sorry you feel that way.
 
Upvote 0

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,327
14,493
Vancouver
Visit site
✟304,048.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The elders can't be angels because they are wearing white robes and have crowns of victory which implies conflict and endurance.
Dressed in white robes, with golden crowns on their heads is not the same as fine linen nor is there mention of a golden crown for us. We have an incorruptable crown, crown of righteousness, crown of life, crown of glory, crown of life....something added to salvation. A reward.

The golden crown is seen in connection with the angels reaping the harvest.

Rev 14:14 And I saw, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud one sitting like [the] Son of man, having upon his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send thy sickle and reap; for the hour of reaping is come, for the harvest of the earth is dried.
16 And he that sat on the cloud put his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which [is] in the heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out of the altar, having power over fire, and called with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send thy sharp sickle, and gather the bunches of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripened.


Since "we" shall judge angels then the 24 elders in thrones cannot be angels.

Sure but this is speaking about Jesus.
We shall judge angels...the white robes would denote they are above sin.. fallen angels are not. But elders throwing down their crowns is a taking up of our crowns imo

Since He has not put the world to come under the subjection of angels then angels do not inhabit thrones in heaven.
The world is not under subjection to angels but the heavenly bodies are. Psalm 8:3,6 shows that mankind will rule moon and stars.


The main teaching here is that John fell on his knees and worshiped the angel but the angel corrected him by reminding him that he (the angel) is a fellow worker not a deity. I prefer the NASB translation of this verse which makes it a bit clearer.

8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me; 9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant[e] with you and your comrades[f] the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”
I agree with this. This thread is slightly sporatic but I wasn't planning on doing a "study" and am having difficulty finding all the scripture references. But I wanted to point out Rev 14 in reference to the golden crown at harvest time especially and also call your attention to the difference between white robes and fine linen.
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Mar 27, 2007
34,437
3,872
On the bus to Heaven
✟60,078.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Here is the reason for confusion about who is doing what. Check out all the bible references using them compared to the one KJV using us. The elders are singing

Revelation 5:9-10
New International Version (NIV)
9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

Revelation 5:9-10
American Standard Version (ASV)
9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,
10 and madest them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests; and they reign upon earth

Revelation 5:9-10
Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 5:9-10
The Message (MSG)
6-10 So I looked, and there, surrounded by Throne, Animals, and Elders, was a Lamb, slaughtered but standing tall. Seven horns he had, and seven eyes, the Seven Spirits of God sent into all the earth. He came to the One Seated on the Throne and took the scroll from his right hand. The moment he took the scroll, the Four Animals and Twenty-four Elders fell down and worshiped the Lamb. Each had a harp and each had a bowl, a gold bowl filled with incense, the prayers of God’s holy people. And they sang a new song:
Worthy! Take the scroll, open its seals.
Slain! Paying in blood, you bought men and women,
Bought them back from all over the earth,
Bought them back for God.
Then you made them a Kingdom, Priests for our God,
Priest-kings to rule over the earth.

Revelation 5:9-10
New International Version (NIV)
9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased for God
persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
10 You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God,
and they will reign on the earth.”

Revelation 5:9-10
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
9 They sing a new song:
“You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slaughtered and by your blood you ransomed for God
saints from[a] every tribe and language and people and nation;
10 you have made them to be a kingdom and priests serving our God,
and they will reign on earth.”


The Greek word αὐτοὺς is a possessive pronoun rendered here in the 3rd person plural so it can be rendered as us, them, or they. Either way the pronoun is referring to the saints in verse 9 which IS us (those ransomed by the blood of Christ).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Mar 27, 2007
34,437
3,872
On the bus to Heaven
✟60,078.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Dressed in white robes, with golden crowns on their heads is not the same as fine linen nor is there mention of a golden crown for us. We have an incorruptable crown, crown of righteousness, crown of life, crown of glory, crown of life....something added to salvation. A reward.

The Greek word ἱματίοις means a garment, usually a cloak or robe. It makes no allusion to the material used in the garment in this verse so fine linen, or any other material, cannot be ruled out. The golden crown is only used to describe the crowns worn by the 24 elders and Christ. Angels are not ever depicted in scripture wearing a crown.

The golden crown is seen in connection with the angels reaping the harvest.

Rev 14:14 And I saw, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud one sitting like [the] Son of man, having upon his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send thy sickle and reap; for the hour of reaping is come, for the harvest of the earth is dried.
16 And he that sat on the cloud put his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which [is] in the heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out of the altar, having power over fire, and called with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send thy sharp sickle, and gather the bunches of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripened.

Jesus is wearing the golden crown not the angels.


We shall judge angels...the white robes would denote they are above sin.. fallen angels are not. But elders throwing down their crowns is a taking up of our crowns imo

The elders cast their crowns before the throne because the crowns are not for their glory but for the Lord's glory. We will do the same.


The world is not under subjection to angels but the heavenly bodies are. Psalm 8:3,6 shows that mankind will rule moon and stars.

Please don't stray into Mormon theology. Believers are not going to rule the moon or the stars or any planet in the universe. Psalms 8:

O Lord, our Lord,
How majestic is Your name in all the earth,
Who have [a]displayed Your splendor above the heavens!
2 From the mouth of infants and nursing babes You have established [b]strength
Because of Your adversaries,
To make the enemy and the revengeful cease. 3 When I [c]consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,The moon and the stars, which You have [d]ordained;
4 What is man that You [e]take thought of him,
And the son of man that You care for him?
5 Yet You have made him a little lower than [f]God,
And You crown him with glory and majesty!
6 You make him to rule over the works of Your hands;
You have put all things under his feet,

7 All sheep and oxen,
And also the [g]beasts of the field,
8 The birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea,
Whatever passes through the paths of the seas.

9 O Lord, our Lord,
How majestic is Your name in all the earth!


This psalm is a Christological psalm, plainly referring to Jesus (see Hebrews 2 which quotes a portion of this psalm). The pronouns "you" or "your" refer to God while the pronoun "him" refers to Christ.





I agree with this. This thread is slightly sporatic but I wasn't planning on doing a "study" and am having difficulty finding all the scripture references. But I wanted to point out Rev 14 in reference to the golden crown at harvest time especially and also call your attention to the difference between white robes and fine linen.

1. The golden crown in Rev. 14 is worn by Jesus not by the angels. There are no references in scripture depicting angels wearing crowns.

2. As I stated above, the garments worn by the 24 elders are only described by their color not by the material used, consequently, it is possible that the garments are made of fine linen.
 
Upvote 0