Can't decide between Christianity and Judaism, help!

[Decanus]

Hi guys, I was just wondering if anybody could help me a little.

My problem is this:

I grew up in a Christian family (Catholic) however I was really the only one that took it seriously. All I relied on when I was younger was Catholic School to get my religious education. I have been a Christian all my life and I love the Christian faith. I love the teachings of Jesus, I love the History, the Worship, the music etc. However, there are some things I find incredibly hard to believe and it has lead me to looking into Judaism.

My main argument is Jesus' claim to be the Messiah. Having looked at the prophecies regarding the Messiag in the old testament, there are many ways in which Jesus simply does not fit the description. There is also the question of Jesus being the son of God. The Messiah was meant to be an ordinary man, not Gods son. The coming of the Messiah was meant to usher in the Messianic age, an age of peace. Jesus did not bring that. Yes there is talk of the second coming, but to me, that just seems like a bit of a cop out. The OT never mentioned a second coming.

Then there is God becoming man in the form of Jesus. Why did God feel the need to make Mary conceive, then spend 9 months growing inside of her, then go through infancy, childhood, adolescence and adulthood when God could have just come down as a man without going through all those stages and wasting so much time? I just don't get why God had to be born in order to come to earth. This makes no sense to me. Also, the word that translates to Virgin, in the Hebrew Bible it actually means "maiden". So the whole concept of the Virgin Birth falls into doubt for me.

Then we have Jesus as a descendant from King David. In those times, as it is a lot of the time now in Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism, ones tribe would be determined by the Mother. It was Joseph who was said to be from the line of David, however since Jesus is the son of God and does not have a biological father, then that would mean Jesus was not a descendant of King David, which the Messiah was said to descend from.

Lastly there is the concept of the Trinity. While I understand the concept in it's simplest explanation, I really find it hard to comprehend further. The OT never mentions such a trinity. It only ever talks about ONE God and ONE essence. However in the New Testament we have the SON of God who actually IS God and then we have the Holy Spirit. 3 parts of the same one God. This to me doesn't seem like pure monotheism. If Jesus WAS God, then who did Jesus pray to? If Jesus WAS God, why did he pray to himself?

I'm not here to bash Christianity, on the contrary i'm hoping someone can explain this to me in a way I can understand and help me believe. I do not want to leave Christianity and go to Judaism without first really truly understanding the religion I was born into and the Religion I love.

I am a Liberal person, so I am open to a wide variety of opinions. My current choice of Church would be Church of England (Anglican) or if I was to convert to Judaism, it would be with the Reform Synagogue. So I am open to any interpretation, explanation, you get the jist

Thanks Guys! I'm going to post this in one or two other forums as well, just in case not many people see it here.

 

[CanadianAnglican]

I would suggest considering attending an Alpha Course as it explores each of the issues you're raising and would allow you to discuss them face-to-face with other people rather than dealing with them through the impersonal medium of the Internet.

 

[Liberasit]

Hi guys, I was just wondering if anybody could help me a little.

My problem is this:

I grew up in a Christian family (Catholic) however I was really the only one that took it seriously. All I relied on when I was younger was Catholic School to get my religious education. I have been a Christian all my life and I love the Christian faith. I love the teachings of Jesus, I love the History, the Worship, the music etc. However, there are some things I find incredibly hard to believe and it has lead me to looking into Judaism.

My main argument is Jesus' claim to be the Messiah. Having looked at the prophecies regarding the Messiag in the old testament, there are many ways in which Jesus simply does not fit the description. There is also the question of Jesus being the son of God. The Messiah was meant to be an ordinary man, not Gods son. The coming of the Messiah was meant to usher in the Messianic age, an age of peace. Jesus did not bring that. Yes there is talk of the second coming, but to me, that just seems like a bit of a cop out. The OT never mentioned a second coming.

Then there is God becoming man in the form of Jesus. Why did God feel the need to make Mary conceive, then spend 9 months growing inside of her, then go through infancy, childhood, adolescence and adulthood when God could have just come down as a man without going through all those stages and wasting so much time? I just don't get why God had to be born in order to come to earth. This makes no sense to me. Also, the word that translates to Virgin, in the Hebrew Bible it actually means "maiden". So the whole concept of the Virgin Birth falls into doubt for me.

Then we have Jesus as a descendant from King David. In those times, as it is a lot of the time now in Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism, ones tribe would be determined by the Mother. It was Joseph who was said to be from the line of David, however since Jesus is the son of God and does not have a biological father, then that would mean Jesus was not a descendant of King David, which the Messiah was said to descend from.

Lastly there is the concept of the Trinity. While I understand the concept in it's simplest explanation, I really find it hard to comprehend further. The OT never mentions such a trinity. It only ever talks about ONE God and ONE essence. However in the New Testament we have the SON of God who actually IS God and then we have the Holy Spirit. 3 parts of the same one God. This to me doesn't seem like pure monotheism. If Jesus WAS God, then who did Jesus pray to? If Jesus WAS God, why did he pray to himself?

I'm not here to bash Christianity, on the contrary i'm hoping someone can explain this to me in a way I can understand and help me believe. I do not want to leave Christianity and go to Judaism without first really truly understanding the religion I was born into and the Religion I love.

I am a Liberal person, so I am open to a wide variety of opinions. My current choice of Church would be Church of England (Anglican) or if I was to convert to Judaism, it would be with the Reform Synagogue. So I am open to any interpretation, explanation, you get the jist

Thanks Guys! I'm going to post this in one or two other forums as well, just in case not many people see it here.

I think you are over thinking it. It's very unusual for someone to adopt Judaism independently (ie not marrying into it).

Very simplistically Judaism promises salvation by obedience rather than salvation by grace. Do you think that you could stick by all the kosher rules and rules surrounding the Shabbat?

It is absolutely fine to attend a CofE church for services and midweek activities being unsure of your faith. We are fairly respectful of those who are exploring and do our best to nurture you. My church, and I am sure many others, are very conscious of our Jewish heritage and will use this to help us to apply bible teaching to our own lives.

My advice would be to tag onto a student or young adult ministry of a vibrant CofE church and take it from there.

 

[Decanus]

I think you are over thinking it. It's very unusual for someone to adopt Judaism independently (ie not marrying into it).

Very simplistically Judaism promises salvation by obedience rather than salvation by grace. Do you think that you could stick by all the kosher rules and rules surrounding the Shabbat?

It is absolutely fine to attend a CofE church for services and midweek activities being unsure of your faith. We are fairly respectful of those who are exploring and do our best to nurture you. My church, and I am sure many others, are very conscious of our Jewish heritage and will use this to help us to apply bible teaching to our own lives.

My advice would be to tag onto a student or young adult ministry of a vibrant CofE church and take it from there.

Well, I may be over thinking it, but I think they are valid questions for someone who has found themselves questioning the legitimacy of Christianity. Believe me, i'd be much happier if I didn't have these questions. Ideally i'd love to remain Christian.

I have spoken to a few people who have converted by their own choice, not because of marriage. The Synagogue which i'd be converting with (should I choose to) is with Liberal Judaism, known as Reform in the US. Conversions with them are very common practice these days. They are not Halachic and they place a great emphasis on our own understanding of things. Some remain Kosher, some are semi kosher and some see no need for it. I guess it's like the Anglicanism of Judaism. As for me staying Kosher, i'd give it a good go and I would try my absolute best and eventually i'm sure i'd achieve it. Again with Shabbat, they are not as strict as Orthodox. They recognise that some people have to work on Saturdays and do all sorts of other things.

I have attended a Shabbat service this week and I will attend again either this week or sometime soon. But I shall also try and do the same with attending a Church of England service.

 

[CanadianAnglican]

Again, I would suggest not simply attending a service. That isn't going to resolve your questions about Christianity. You must believe Jesus Christ both as son of God (fully God and fully man) and as the Messiah if you wish to be Christian. You must accept the Trinity. I'm not sure what you mean precisely when you say you're 'liberal' because Liberal Christianity still accepts all of these things; all Christians do. If it was in reference to your politics, then that shouldn't particularly matter in regards to where you end up.

Some apologies, like CS Lewis's Mere Christianity might also be helpful to you. Given the specifics of your questions, there might be some other more scholarly works that you would find helpful, though I would again suggest something like an Alpha Course would be an excellent venue for you to be able to explore these and other questions.

Attending a service can be beneficial. Beyond the superficial of deciding whether or not you enjoy the style of the service, you may well have an encounter with God that helps you to resolve some of these questions. It isn't necessarily the best way of deciding what to do, and since you've essentially narrowed yourself down to Anglicanism for Christianity and Liberal Judaism for Judaism, I would strongly suggest against deciding based on whether or not you like the services, as those are essentially superficial matters.

You need to resolve your questions about the divinity of Christ and the nature of the Holy Trinity, then you can decide where God is calling you.

 

[Decanus]

Again, I would suggest not simply attending a service. That isn't going to resolve your questions about Christianity. You must believe Jesus Christ both as son of God (fully God and fully man) and as the Messiah if you wish to be Christian. You must accept the Trinity. I'm not sure what you mean precisely when you say you're 'liberal' because Liberal Christianity still accepts all of these things; all Christians do. If it was in reference to your politics, then that shouldn't particularly matter in regards to where you end up.

I agree. I know that in order to be a Christian I must wholeheartedly believe in the Trinity and Jesus as fully God and Human. The Alpha course would be a good idea, however having looking them up, the ones close to me are coming to an end soon, so I would have to wait for the next one.

What I mean by Liberal is just that I am open to a wide variety of ideas and interpretations, also that my views are more suited to the more socially Liberal denominations such as Anglican or Liberal Judaism.

Attending a service can be beneficial. Beyond the superficial of deciding whether or not you enjoy the style of the service, you may well have an encounter with God that helps you to resolve some of these questions. It isn't necessarily the best way of deciding what to do, and since you've essentially narrowed yourself down to Anglicanism for Christianity and Liberal Judaism for Judaism, I would strongly suggest against deciding based on whether or not you like the services, as those are essentially superficial matters.

You need to resolve your questions about the divinity of Christ and the nature of the Holy Trinity, then you can decide where God is calling you.

Of course, while the aesthetics are important to me as I believe the right style of worship helps me connect to God better, it's not the most essential thing for me. I'm looking for the answers to very specific questions which is my primary concern. Anything after that such as the style of worship is secondary.

 

[CanadianAnglican]

Drat, that's too bad about the Alphas near you ending. I think my next suggestion would be reading, then, or maybe even ask in the Christian Apologetics board? The questions you haven't don't particularly relate to Anglicanism, and I have to apologize I'm not sure about the best resources for addressing your specific concerns. As in I know some that speak to things like the Trinity, Christ's divinity, etc, but not necessarily resources that address those issues in relation to the specific questions you had.

Someone might know of a resource or be able to directly provide the answer here, but it's likely you might get a better response in one of the broader forums.

Lastly, I might mention that Liberal Christianity is a specific way of looking at Christianity, and doesn't necessarily mean exactly what you mean when you describe Anglicanism as a liberal fellowship. The definition you provided--that it holds to a number of essential values but otherwise allows for diversity of opinion and views on non-essential issues--is quite true, but that doesn't directly relate to Liberal Christianity.

I'll keep trying to think up any resources which might directly address your questions regarding Jesus as Messiah, etc, but nothing has come to mind so far. Sorry I couldn't be of more help!

 

[HeartThatLongs]

There are several websites that are Christian and with a Jewish background like Jews for Jesus that have excellent apologetic material answering how and why Jesus is the messiah and God.

 

[graceandpeace]

Hi guys, I was just wondering if anybody could help me a little.

My problem is this:

I grew up in a Christian family (Catholic) however I was really the only one that took it seriously. All I relied on when I was younger was Catholic School to get my religious education. I have been a Christian all my life and I love the Christian faith. I love the teachings of Jesus, I love the History, the Worship, the music etc. However, there are some things I find incredibly hard to believe and it has lead me to looking into Judaism.

Do you love Jesus - not just the teachings, history, etc - but actually love Jesus?

For me, my answer to that question would settle the decision. I can understand having questions & doubts, though & I agree that it's important for you to try to find answers - or to at least find hope.

I don't think all questions of religion in Christianity can be fully answered, but I could easily say the same of Judaism, Islam, & so on. At some point, we understand we are following faith even though we can't see around the bend. Some matters are left to mystery.

My main argument is Jesus' claim to be the Messiah. Having looked at the prophecies regarding the Messiag in the old testament, there are many ways in which Jesus simply does not fit the description. There is also the question of Jesus being the son of God. The Messiah was meant to be an ordinary man, not Gods son. The coming of the Messiah was meant to usher in the Messianic age, an age of peace. Jesus did not bring that. Yes there is talk of the second coming, but to me, that just seems like a bit of a cop out. The OT never mentioned a second coming.

This really comes down to how one interprets the Old Testament, I think. Jesus clearly offers a different take on being Messiah than what the various "messiahs" of the time were offering.

I do think Jesus has brought peace, though not fully realized on a cosmic scale yet. It does exist & has existed between God & God's people (the Church) through the ages, though again perhaps not in a complete manner at this time. The cross changed everything, yet we are not in a new "Eden" right now.

That's a tension that I think is part of Christianity: the Kingdom is here now, but all things are not yet new; it's living in the "now, but not yet."

Then there is God becoming man in the form of Jesus. Why did God feel the need to make Mary conceive, then spend 9 months growing inside of her, then go through infancy, childhood, adolescence and adulthood when God could have just come down as a man without going through all those stages and wasting so much time? I just don't get why God had to be born in order to come to earth. This makes no sense to me.

I don't know why, though I don't think God "had to" do anything the way He did. My speculation is that the Incarnation (including the whole process of development, birth, etc) was a means of God fully identifying & becoming part of His creation, a complete "normal" human being. The answers to why, or how that worked - now that's getting into mystery. Maybe one day He'll tell us.

Also, the word that translates to Virgin, in the Hebrew Bible it actually means "maiden". So the whole concept of the Virgin Birth falls into doubt for me.

I think this is a false dilemma. Just because an OT verse doesn't translate as virgin (a verse that was not about Jesus any way, IMO - though I know some may think differently) doesn't mean the Christian doctrine of the Virgin birth is untenable. If the verse didn't exist, the Virgin birth still would.

Then we have Jesus as a descendant from King David. In those times, as it is a lot of the time now in Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism, ones tribe would be determined by the Mother. It was Joseph who was said to be from the line of David, however since Jesus is the son of God and does not have a biological father, then that would mean Jesus was not a descendant of King David, which the Messiah was said to descend from.

I think I'll let someone else help answer this one - I'm terrible with genealogy type questions.

Lastly there is the concept of the Trinity. While I understand the concept in it's simplest explanation, I really find it hard to comprehend further. The OT never mentions such a trinity. It only ever talks about ONE God and ONE essence. However in the New Testament we have the SON of God who actually IS God and then we have the Holy Spirit. 3 parts of the same one God. This to me doesn't seem like pure monotheism. If Jesus WAS God, then who did Jesus pray to? If Jesus WAS God, why did he pray to himself?

The Trinity is not "parts" of God, it is understood as three distinct co-equal & co-eternal Persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Jesus prayed to the Father.

Christianity is monotheistic, as we confess belief in only one God. The Trinity is a doctrine about how God has revealed Himself - His identity.

In short, the Trinity doctrine is an attempt at understanding a mystery.
I would think a god that can be fully comprehended would not really be a god.

I'm not here to bash Christianity, on the contrary i'm hoping someone can explain this to me in a way I can understand and help me believe. I do not want to leave Christianity and go to Judaism without first really truly understanding the religion I was born into and the Religion I love.

No offense taken.

Perhaps you could sit down & meet with an Anglican priest to discuss some of your questions?

 

[Decanus]

Drat, that's too bad about the Alphas near you ending. I think my next suggestion would be reading, then, or maybe even ask in the Christian Apologetics board? The questions you haven't don't particularly relate to Anglicanism, and I have to apologize I'm not sure about the best resources for addressing your specific concerns. As in I know some that speak to things like the Trinity, Christ's divinity, etc, but not necessarily resources that address those issues in relation to the specific questions you had.

Someone might know of a resource or be able to directly provide the answer here, but it's likely you might get a better response in one of the broader forums.

Lastly, I might mention that Liberal Christianity is a specific way of looking at Christianity, and doesn't necessarily mean exactly what you mean when you describe Anglicanism as a liberal fellowship. The definition you provided--that it holds to a number of essential values but otherwise allows for diversity of opinion and views on non-essential issues--is quite true, but that doesn't directly relate to Liberal Christianity.

I'll keep trying to think up any resources which might directly address your questions regarding Jesus as Messiah, etc, but nothing has come to mind so far. Sorry I couldn't be of more help!

No worries! Thank you for trying to help me! I really do appreciate it. And I shall indeed post this in the Apologetics forum. I don't know why I didn't do that in the first place. It's probably because I haven't been on here much recently and i'm trying to remember it all!

Thank you again!

 

[Decanus]

Do you love Jesus - not just the teachings, history, etc - but actually love Jesus?

For me, my answer to that question would settle the decision. I can understand having questions & doubts, though & I agree that it's important for you to try to find answers - or to at least find hope.

I don't think all questions of religion in Christianity can be fully answered, but I could easily say the same of Judaism, Islam, & so on. At some point, we understand we are following faith even though we can't see around the bend. Some matters are left to mystery.

I suppose I do love Jesus, but that could be because I grew up loving him. Breaking away from Christianity would indeed be very hard for me.

Maybe this is a bad analogy, but I could also love someone as a Mother, but that doesn't actually make them my mother. Just like with Jesus, I might love him as the Messiah, but that doesn't really mean he is. Does that make sense?

This really comes down to how one interprets the Old Testament, I think. Jesus clearly offers a different take on being Messiah than what the various "messiahs" of the time were offering.

I do think Jesus has brought peace, though not fully realized on a cosmic scale yet. It does exist & has existed between God & God's people (the Church) through the ages, though again perhaps not in a complete manner at this time. The cross changed everything, yet we are not in a new "Eden" right now.

That's a tension that I think is part of Christianity: the Kingdom is here now, but all things are not yet new; it's living in the "now, but not yet."

He definitely offers a different take on being the Messiah, but weren't the prophecies in the old testament there for a reason? That reason being able to fully identify the Messiah with enough certainty to believe he is.

Since Jesus came, there has been war on a terrible scale. The Church itself persecuted and was in turn persecuted. There have been Christians against Christians etc. Again, not bashing, but that for me just makes me feel, well the "Messiah" came yet look at the mess we're still in.

I don't know why, though I don't think God "had to" do anything the way He did. My speculation is that the Incarnation (including the whole process of development, birth, etc) was a means of God fully identifying & becoming part of His creation, a complete "normal" human being. The answers to why, or how that worked - now that's getting into mystery. Maybe one day He'll tell us.

I do like the idea of God becoming part of his creation, because that really makes me feel that God does indeed love us enough to actually come down and live as we do. But again, why did he need to come down? Why did he have to die a horrible death for our sins to be forgiven? Why couldn't he just forgive the sins? I know i'm coming across as pessimistic, but I am just trying to understand and i'm sorry if i'm creating questions you don't know how to answer

Indeed one day maybe he will tell us, hopefully soon!

I think this is a false dilemma. Just because an OT verse doesn't translate as virgin (a verse that was not about Jesus any way, IMO - though I know some may think differently) doesn't mean the Christian doctrine of the Virgin birth is untenable. If the verse didn't exist, the Virgin birth still would.

I have nothing much to say to this other than that that is very true, I can see how that could be.

The Trinity is not "parts" of God, it is understood as three distinct co-equal & co-eternal Persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Jesus prayed to the Father.

Christianity is monotheistic, as we confess belief in only one God. The Trinity is a doctrine about how God has revealed Himself - His identity.

In short, the Trinity doctrine is an attempt at understanding a mystery.
I would think a god that can be fully comprehended would not really be a god.

If Father, Son and Holy Spirit are essentially one, then why did the Son pray to the Father? Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are one, so i'm not sure how this works.

No offense taken.

Perhaps you could sit down & meet with an Anglican priest to discuss some of your questions?

That is also an option and I shall get onto this as soon as! Thank you for your help and I hope I haven't troubled you too much!

 

[MKJ]

Roxy Pops - with regard to your question about why God became man, the Christian teaching says:

THe basic idea is this - we humans once, in the time of our innocence, had a close relationship with God, who is Truth. We aligned ourself with that Truth, and because we allowed the Source of Life to live in us completely, we did not suffer death - in fact, there was no death.

The Fall however represents a deliberate turning away from Truth, and so the link between us and the source of Life becomes compromised. We - and the rest of the physical creation with us - begin to die in that moment, we are no longer able to communicate clearly with God, we are no longer to see always what to do even when we want to be good, we no longer have complete control even over our bodies.

In fact, a gulf appears between ourselves, who are finite creatures, and God, who is infinite. And the distance of a gulf between the finite and infinite is itself infinite - we are not able, whatever we do, to bridge the gap.

the answe is that somehow, God and creation must again become really nified, despite our limitations, despite the fact that we continue to go the wrong way and turn away. It is not just a matter of God saying - oh, I'll forgive what you have done. It is actually a matter of allowing him to reanimate creation fully.

That is, it can't just be some sort of abstraction - it has to be real - and a real reunification of the physical creation and God is going to mean that the two elements need to actually meet. You can't have a reunion with the physical world that doesn't include the physical.

So - we are taught that what happened is that reunion occures in the person of Jesus Christ, where through God's action God and man meet and we again are reignited with the source of Life. In his death Christ decends to the dead, to those shades of the dead that remain though their bodies have died, and preaches to them and breaks down the doors of Hell and conquers death.

In a way, you could understand it as a kind of healing. As if our DNA had become infected, or as if a computer virus had infected a whole program. The fix isn't just for God to ignore the error, it is for him to repair the error in the most fundamental way possible.

This also is why in orthodox Christianity we talk about the sacraments being physical and spiritual - they are a way we on an individual level can access that Grace which is given to our whole selves, not just the immaterial parts.

 

[Basil the Great]

"Here, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One." I understand that practicing Jews recite the Shema twice daily, at bedtime and upon rising in the morning.

Yes, Reform Judaism has many appealing attributes. I recommend much study and prayer. The risky part of converting is that if most Christians are correct, forsaking the Christian faith would be putting your eternal soul in jeopardy. Having said that, if you become convinced that Judaism is God's will for you, I guess you would not care too much about the ancient Christian doctrine, "Outside the Church, There is no Salvation".

Researching the history of Anti-Semitism within the Christian Church can make for a very disturbing reading for a Christian. It has caused me to wonder at times if there were moments in history when the Jews were more faithful to the teachings of Jesus than Christians.

 

[Decanus]

Roxy Pops - with regard to your question about why God became man, the Christian teaching says:

THe basic idea is this - we humans once, in the time of our innocence, had a close relationship with God, who is Truth. We aligned ourself with that Truth, and because we allowed the Source of Life to live in us completely, we did not suffer death - in fact, there was no death.

The Fall however represents a deliberate turning away from Truth, and so the link between us and the source of Life becomes compromised. We - and the rest of the physical creation with us - begin to die in that moment, we are no longer able to communicate clearly with God, we are no longer to see always what to do even when we want to be good, we no longer have complete control even over our bodies.

In fact, a gulf appears between ourselves, who are finite creatures, and God, who is infinite. And the distance of a gulf between the finite and infinite is itself infinite - we are not able, whatever we do, to bridge the gap.

the answe is that somehow, God and creation must again become really nified, despite our limitations, despite the fact that we continue to go the wrong way and turn away. It is not just a matter of God saying - oh, I'll forgive what you have done. It is actually a matter of allowing him to reanimate creation fully.

That is, it can't just be some sort of abstraction - it has to be real - and a real reunification of the physical creation and God is going to mean that the two elements need to actually meet. You can't have a reunion with the physical world that doesn't include the physical.

So - we are taught that what happened is that reunion occures in the person of Jesus Christ, where through God's action God and man meet and we again are reignited with the source of Life. In his death Christ decends to the dead, to those shades of the dead that remain though their bodies have died, and preaches to them and breaks down the doors of Hell and conquers death.

In a way, you could understand it as a kind of healing. As if our DNA had become infected, or as if a computer virus had infected a whole program. The fix isn't just for God to ignore the error, it is for him to repair the error in the most fundamental way possible.

This also is why in orthodox Christianity we talk about the sacraments being physical and spiritual - they are a way we on an individual level can access that Grace which is given to our whole selves, not just the immaterial parts.

Wow, thank you for all this info MKJ! It's really helped me in my journey and I will continue to look back at this!

 

[Decanus]

"Here, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One." I understand that practicing Jews recite the Shema twice daily, at bedtime and upon rising in the morning.

Yes, Reform Judaism has many appealing attributes. I recommend much study and prayer. The risky part of converting is that if most Christians are correct, forsaking the Christian faith would be putting your eternal soul in jeopardy. Having said that, if you become convinced that Judaism is God's will for you, I guess you would not care too much about the ancient Christian doctrine, "Outside the Church, There is no Salvation".

Researching the history of Anti-Semitism within the Christian Church can make for a very disturbing reading for a Christian. It has caused me to wonder at times if there were moments in history when the Jews were more faithful to the teachings of Jesus than Christians.

Thank you Basil, I will definitely continue to pray and study.

Reform is a very welcoming and loving atmosphere I found. People actually talk to you and are genuinely happy you're there. Unlike my many experiences in different Churches where people go in, go out, and there is no interaction at all. A packed Church can also be a very lonely place. It seems many only go their purely for their own purposes and not to engage with the Christian community, which is very sad.

I must confess, there is always that feeling in the back of my head that says "What if you don't go to heaven if you leave Christianity". But as you say, if I become completely convinced, that won't bother me, which shows I am not yet convinced of either faith. Pray for me

 

[everbecoming2007]

Hi guys, I was just wondering if anybody could help me a little.

My problem is this:

I grew up in a Christian family (Catholic) however I was really the only one that took it seriously. All I relied on when I was younger was Catholic School to get my religious education. I have been a Christian all my life and I love the Christian faith. I love the teachings of Jesus, I love the History, the Worship, the music etc. However, there are some things I find incredibly hard to believe and it has lead me to looking into Judaism.

My main argument is Jesus' claim to be the Messiah. Having looked at the prophecies regarding the Messiag in the old testament, there are many ways in which Jesus simply does not fit the description. There is also the question of Jesus being the son of God. The Messiah was meant to be an ordinary man, not Gods son. The coming of the Messiah was meant to usher in the Messianic age, an age of peace. Jesus did not bring that. Yes there is talk of the second coming, but to me, that just seems like a bit of a cop out. The OT never mentioned a second coming.

Then there is God becoming man in the form of Jesus. Why did God feel the need to make Mary conceive, then spend 9 months growing inside of her, then go through infancy, childhood, adolescence and adulthood when God could have just come down as a man without going through all those stages and wasting so much time? I just don't get why God had to be born in order to come to earth. This makes no sense to me. Also, the word that translates to Virgin, in the Hebrew Bible it actually means "maiden". So the whole concept of the Virgin Birth falls into doubt for me.

Then we have Jesus as a descendant from King David. In those times, as it is a lot of the time now in Orthodox Judaism and Conservative Judaism, ones tribe would be determined by the Mother. It was Joseph who was said to be from the line of David, however since Jesus is the son of God and does not have a biological father, then that would mean Jesus was not a descendant of King David, which the Messiah was said to descend from.

Lastly there is the concept of the Trinity. While I understand the concept in it's simplest explanation, I really find it hard to comprehend further. The OT never mentions such a trinity. It only ever talks about ONE God and ONE essence. However in the New Testament we have the SON of God who actually IS God and then we have the Holy Spirit. 3 parts of the same one God. This to me doesn't seem like pure monotheism. If Jesus WAS God, then who did Jesus pray to? If Jesus WAS God, why did he pray to himself?

I'm not here to bash Christianity, on the contrary i'm hoping someone can explain this to me in a way I can understand and help me believe. I do not want to leave Christianity and go to Judaism without first really truly understanding the religion I was born into and the Religion I love.

I am a Liberal person, so I am open to a wide variety of opinions. My current choice of Church would be Church of England (Anglican) or if I was to convert to Judaism, it would be with the Reform Synagogue. So I am open to any interpretation, explanation, you get the jist

Thanks Guys! I'm going to post this in one or two other forums as well, just in case not many people see it here.

Some of your questions have already been well answered by others in the thread. I don't have much to add as far as specifics, but can say that sometimes with the Old Testament prophecies and how they are quoted in the New Testament -- well, it can get complicated. One way to think of it, though, is that even if an Old Testament prophecy is interpreted differently in Judaism, or fulfilled in some way without reference to Jesus, that doesn't mean that it doesn't have an underlying meaning that points to Jesus. Scripture can be read on more than one level. It can have a surface level and also contain a deeper meaning. Often times scripture from the Old Testament, when quoted in the New, is being interpreted in a new light, but that doesn't have to abrogate the older meaning or the literal meaning.

When it comes down to it, no one can really prove that Christianity is true or that Jesus is the Messiah, though some try. It really comes down to faith. If you do embrace Judaism, there will likewise be some element of faith to it, at least if you embrace any of the traditional beliefs -- the divine inspiration of the Torah, the reality of God, the fulfillment of prophecy. Which ever religion you put your faith in it, all I can really suggest is to study much, talk to other people of both faiths, get an experience of both traditions, and pray. But whichever tradition you choose, faith will be a part of it.

 

[Albion]

Lastly, I might mention that Liberal Christianity is a specific way of looking at Christianity, and doesn't necessarily mean exactly what you mean when you describe Anglicanism as a liberal fellowship. The definition you provided--that it holds to a number of essential values but otherwise allows for diversity of opinion and views on non-essential issues--is quite true, but that doesn't directly relate to Liberal Christianity.

It looks like you and I had similar reactions to our friend's comment there about liberal religion. Liberal Judaism doesn't even believe in an afterlife; it's more like Unitarianism if we were to seek a Christian parallel. That's not usually what "Liberal" means when anyone is speaking of Anglicanism.

 

[Decanus]

It looks like you and I had similar reactions to our friend's comment there about liberal religion. Liberal Judaism doesn't even believe in an afterlife; it's more like Unitarianism if we were to seek a Christian parallel. That's not usually what "Liberal" means when anyone is speaking of Anglicanism.

I didn't make any comment about Liberal Religion?

I said I was a Liberal person so I was open to a wide variety of opinions. That means that I am a liberal minded person and open to different interpretations. I wasn't commenting on any denominations religious liberalism. I am aware within Anglicanism there are conservative Anglicans and there are actually conservative Reform Jews also.

Sorry if I caused any confusion there.

 

[Albion]

I didn't make any comment about Liberal Religion?

You did say this: "my views are more suited to the more socially Liberal denominations such as Anglican or Liberal Judaism."

Now, I get that you want to draw a distinction between "liberal" in the sense of broadly tolerant of diverse beliefs and the kind of religious liberalism that revises or demythologizes all traditional doctrines, BUT I believe many of us would say that there is a connection and, even if that's denied, it remains an odd choice--Reformed Judaism and Anglicanism--considering how structurally and doctrinally different they are.

As I was saying to CanadianAnglican, it just struck me as a peculiar proposition.


I

 

[MKJ]

Wow, thank you for all this info MKJ! It's really helped me in my journey and I will continue to look back at this!

Great, I'm so glad it was helpful.