Canabis ect.

[Cerberus~]

Yes, but it also says that we should obey the laws put in place by our rulers. In America pot is illegal and therefore a sin.

If Christianity was suddenly illegal tomorrow, would it be a sin to worship Christ?

As I've said before, for a free society to run, we are morally obligated to break unjust laws.

 

[Firebird73]

I used Cannabis for 12 years and contrary to the popular mantra of it leading to harder drugs, it doesnt, in most cases its the dealer who leads the person or the people they are 'hanging out' with that will instill a curiousity in harder drugs.
I think more research should be done in this area as it is now a scientific fact that the active ingredient or chemical in cannabis, THC, has pain releiving properties when used on MS sufferers.
It is no good for you though, I beleive in the legalising of this drug, but for me, my smoking days are well and truly over, thanks be to God.

 

[Cerberus~]

It is no good for you though,

Because?

 

[BibleMadeMeDoIt]

Illigal Drugs.

There is a problem with this line of thinking, some illegal drugs in our country were actually legal once and used in the medical field. And some still are being used just with different names.

In the US the most popular and most prescribed form of pain-killers are opiate based drugs. These drugs are cousins to present day illegal heroin, they are made with opium. Heroin was once legal and widely used in the medical field. Do you think those who use the legal opiate based drugs are not committing a sin versus those who use the cheaper, less refined form known as heroin?

I should also include cocaine in this topic too since it was once legal and even sold in stores. http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/coc03.htm

 

[e=mv^2]

Thanks for the response Doug,

pharmakeus, Greek 5332, Strong’s

pharmakeus,far-mak-yoos'; from pharmakon (a drug, i.e. spell-giving potion); a druggist (“pharmacist”) or poisoner, i.e. (by extension) a magician :- sorcerer.

2 definitions here as well as a source of the word.
Source: pharmakon (a drug, i.e. spell-giving potion);

1: a druggist (“pharmacist”)
2: poisoner, i.e. (by extension) a magician :- sorcerer.

The word pharmacy that we use to describe a place to go to purchase drugs is simply related to one who produces or dispenses drugs. I am sorry that you can't make the connection without my help. I mentioned that there were several Greek words that described the practice in the NT. Look at all three.

Tell me which of the TWO definitions above do you find the connection with eating cannabis? Is a person eating cannabis:
a: a pharmacist
b: a poisoner

When Paul wrote to Thessalonians and John wrote the Revelation, you are absolutely correct, they didn't go to a store to get aspirin.

Correct - who would they go to?

I am also sorry that you cannot see the connection as a principle between the sorcery of 2000 years ago and the illicit drug trade of today.

And I am sorry that you have not studied roman history as I have.

You are also correct in saying that these words refer to the drug, their compilation, and their dispensing.

Thank you.

They do not refer to the use of drugs.

Correct.

What does refer to the use is the result. That of being under a 'spell' or not thinking clearly.Perhaps the cannabis has clouded your perceptions?

Incorrect. Sin is not the result. Sin is the source. Sin happens before you take an action. Sin is the source of the action. The adulterer sins when he plans the escapade - it is from the heart that the sin takes place. Again - there is nothing natural on this planet that will cause you to sin. Nothing. Man made things might do so but the things that God put on this earth will not lead you into sin.

As for a posative application of the word, it is translated as lack in 1 Thes. 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

Wrong. Flat out wrong.
English:

That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
(I Thessalonians 4:12, KJV)

Greek (textus receptus)

ινα περιπατητε ευσχημονως προς τους εξω και μηδενος χρειαν εχητε
(I Thessalonians 4:12, TR)

Can you show me where the word φαρμακευσιν appears in that verse? It doesn't. The word is not there.

Jesus was absolutely right. Cannabis will not corrupt you or defile you. The defilment comes from within as you have said.

Good - we agree here.

And I do not condemn you or judge you.

Very good! but in your next statement you do judge it.

I simply believe that the scripture connects mind altering drugs with sorcery and the demonic.

If you don't believe that way, enjoy another brownie.

Who ever said that I eat cannabis? I am simply taking the position that it is not sinful.

Christ came to us to remove sin. Too many christians are trying to invent new ways to sin. I am simply showing that there is no scriptual basis for saying that eating cannabis (or anything else for that matter) is a sin.

How many people have been chased away from christianty because they used cannabis? Because they were not circumcised? For whatever reason? It is time for us to stop making up new rules and to stop chasing people away. The person that is smoking a joint today might move on to more productive things tomorrow.

Yes, but it also says that we should obey the laws put in place by our rulers. In America pot is illegal and therefore a sin.

WhiteWolf76 - Do you drive? If so it is good to know that there is exactly one person that never exceeds the speeding limit. The rest of us are imperfect in many other ways that we have to worry about.

Hello kettle? This is pot. You are black.

-e

 

[Firebird73]

Because?

It can lead to mental health problems such as depression and schizophrenia.

 

[Cerberus~]

It can lead to mental health problems such as depression and schizophrenia.

Sources?

 

[e=mv^2]

I can see where marijuana could possibly be a catalyst for someone that is already prone to depresion but schizophrenia? I really can not see how that is possible.

Achohol - is - a depressant. By definition. But drinking alcohol is not a sin is it?

 

[one love]

http://education.jlab.org/qa/history_03.html

An atom can mean group of particles or a single particle itself. In this case the group of particles can sometimes come together to form elements such as iron.

 

[Doug45]

e=mv^2,

You justified the consumption of cannabis by the fact that it is a seed bearing plant. Do you also justify the use of opium and cocaine by the same reasoning?

Very good! but in your next statement you do judge it. e=mv^2

So when you declare your belief that something is a sin, it isn't judgmental, but when someone else does it is? Sorry. I stand by my statment. Whether you determine (judge) me to be judgmental or not.



Granted, a person's perception of truth isn't always = to the truth. Therefore I could be wrong in my perception, nevertheless, it is currently my perception.

Doug

 

[John16:2]

Drugs have always played a part in religious practices.

There is no basis for you connection of drugs and Satanism. Most drug users are not Satanists, in fact, many of the ppl I know what smoke pot, most of them are Christian.

And it's cannabis.

I tried to run a thread on this topic that was swiftly censored, so I must restrict my freedom of speech/press/info/religion somewhat. Brain waves are relevant when a substance like herb can alter the waves to a more meditative state. It can't be separated from a religious context, if used in that context, except by courts.

Genesis 1:29, Ezekiel 34:29, Romans 14:2-4 KJV or old Bible version wordings. Newer tampered with Bibles censor the word HERB and replace it with a word that makes no sense in that context; vegetables.

It violates Rev 22 about adding or subtracting from scripture, like the way the name Lucifer has been erased from newer Bibles in Isaiah 14:12. The prizewinner is 2 Thessalonians 2, about the fate of the lawless one; versions range from the Lord removing him with the breath of his mouth and bringing to an end by the visible manifestation of his coming, to the Lord shall consume and destroy him. One of the many versions are certainly fallable.

God gave us EVERY green herb bearing seed in Genesis 1:29-30. I don't like Bible tamperers trying to take away what God gave us by cheating with Romans 14:2-4.

 

[Doug45]

John 16:2,

Are you saying that cannabis, opium and cocaine, all seed bearing plants, are the mind of the Lord for His body and flock? Are you suggesting as a shepherd that this is good forage for a flock?

The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want. He makes me lie down in pastures of cannabis, poppies and coca; He leads me beside quiet waters. He restores my soul; He guides me in the paths of righteousness For His name's sake.

Please, give me a break.

Sin is the violation and nature of God and His character. Quite honestly I don't see God snorting, smoking or chomping away His consciousness and I believe that you tamper with the spirit of what is written far more than myself or others who qualify what is said in a few isolated verses upon the basis of the breadth of scripture.

Perhaps drugs are a part of worship in most cases. The issue is what god is being worshipped. Like I said, there is a demonic connection here.

Doug

 

[In A Perfect World]

John 16:2,

Are you saying that cannabis, opium and cocaine, all seed bearing plants, are the mind of the Lord for His body and flock? Are you suggesting as a shepherd that this is good forage for a flock?

The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want. He makes me lie down in pastures of cannabis, poppies and coca; He leads me beside quiet waters. He restores my soul; He guides me in the paths of righteousness For His name's sake.

Please, give me a break.

Sin is the violation and nature of God and His character. Quite honestly I don't see God snorting, smoking or chomping away His consciousness and I believe that you tamper with the spirit of what is written far more than myself or others who qualify what is said in a few isolated verses upon the basis of the breadth of scripture.

Perhaps drugs are a part of worship in most cases. The issue is what god is being worshipped. Like I said, there is a demonic connection here.

Doug

So the fact that Catholics drink alcohol at mass, and Coptic Christianity uses marijuana as incense in their masses leads to to believe that demons are present in these ceremonies too?

 

[Doug45]

Thanks for proving my point. It's a real stretch to compare the use of a little wine in communion with the use of the substances I mentioned. Your going a long way beyond reason to prove the point.

Personally, I would have no trouble with declaring the use of marijuana as inscense in a mass as being an errant misuse, i.e. strange incense. Quite honestly, OT use of inscense was very specific even to the point of dictating exact ingrediants and proportions and God warned of using strange incense as a part of worship.

The altar of incense was a type in the Ot and is foreshadowing the prayers and praise of the saints in NT worship so I find it unbiblical to use incense in Christian worship at all.

Surprise, there is nothing in the walls of a building that can keep demons out. Jesus encountered one in the Luke 4 account right in a Jewish synagogue.

And to expose this sort of twisting and tampering with the word is not judgment. God will be the judge.

Doug

 

[Cerberus~]

Are you saying that cannabis, opium and cocaine, all seed bearing plants, are the mind of the Lord for His body and flock? Are you suggesting as a shepherd that this is good forage for a flock?

Cocaine isn't a plant. It's derived from a plant. The same plant that makes your candy bars, caffee, and hot chocolate. Cocaine is also a schedule II substance because of it's recognized medical value.

Opium is used for morphine as well and other painkillers. Cannabis also has an array of medicinal uses.

Sin is the violation and nature of God and His character. Quite honestly I don't see God snorting, smoking or chomping away His consciousness and I believe that you tamper with the spirit of what is written far more than myself or others who qualify what is said in a few isolated verses upon the basis of the breadth of scripture.

God isn't human. I'm sure just being God feels like a constant X trip, so He wouldn't need drugs.

 

[psychedelicist]

Thanks for proving my point. It's a real stretch to compare the use of a little wine in communion with the use of the substances I mentioned. Your going a long way beyond reason to prove the point.

Personally, I would have no trouble with declaring the use of marijuana as inscense in a mass as being an errant misuse, i.e. strange incense. Quite honestly, OT use of inscense was very specific even to the point of dictating exact ingrediants and proportions and God warned of using strange incense as a part of worship.

The altar of incense was a type in the Ot and is foreshadowing the prayers and praise of the saints in NT worship so I find it unbiblical to use incense in Christian worship at all.

Surprise, there is nothing in the walls of a building that can keep demons out. Jesus encountered one in the Luke 4 account right in a Jewish synagogue.

And to expose this sort of twisting and tampering with the word is not judgment. God will be the judge.

Doug

I'm not sure if you've read this in the thread already, but in Exodus 30:22 it talks about making an incense using approx. 9 pounds of cannabis oil (the KJV obviously did not like this so they changed the name to "fragrant cane" but if you read the Hebrew text it can only be interpreted as Calamus or Cannabis, both are psychoactive anyways, so it doesn't matter either way). Cannabis was used in the same way wine is used in the sacrament.

 

[e=mv^2]

It is 30:23 and the KJV reads sweet calamus

Take thou also unto thee principal spices, of pure myrrh five hundred shekels , and of sweet cinnamon half so much, even two hundred and fifty shekels , and of sweet calamus two hundred and fifty shekels ,
(Exodus 30:23, KJV)

sweet calamus in hebrew is:

qaneh besem

Not a real hard stretch there.

As far as the strange comment goes - have a look at the word used. It means something foreign or "put away". It refers to disobedience not to a specific type of incense. There were very specific instructions given on how the proceedings should take place. The fire was to be taken from a specific place. To take the fire from someplace else would make it "strange fire" to use incense from another place would make it "strange incense". If you were told to go and get the 99 toyota camry out of a garage and you got a 99 toyota camry from the parking lot - it would be a "strange car".

The point is clear. We have permission to eat whatever we like. We are specifically ordered not to judge anyone on what they eat or drink. We have been given all seed bearing plants and herbs.

Stop the legalism.

 

[Doug45]

I read the passage that you refered (Ex 30:22) to and it is speaking about making the anointing oil rather than incense. It is used for its fragrance and applied externally more like a salve, smeared onto the skin than an oil. It was also used to anoint objects.

Also noted, the Hebrew definition of the word in question did not suggest that it was the same as cannabis. The English definition of the word in a modern dictionary made no reference to any commonality with cannabis so I remain unconvinced on both counts, that is the substance itself and what it was used for.

I will look further into it.

Thanks for the bit of humor, Cerberus~. I'm sure God is high on life, too.

Yes, I agree that there are posative uses for all of those substances and I understand that cocaine is a derivative, not the original form from the coca leaf. I think the posative uses of these substances are the answer to the statement that God pronounced the seed bearing plants as good for food (consumption) in Gen 1:29.

It is a stretch however to compare the opium dens of the orient to the medicinal use of morphine under a controlled environment. I also realize that it is a stretch to compare the social use of marijuana or cannabis to the opium dens. Where is the line to be drawn?

Sex is sacred, but there is a line. A heterosexual relationship in marriage is God blessed while an adulterous relationship is sinful. There is a line.

Where is the line drawn with respect to the use of such substances?

Perhaps there is little difference between a little wine and a little cannabis. Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, And whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise. But there is obviously a real and present danger in their use.

The stronger illicit drugs like cocaine, heroin, speed, crack and the like leave a trail of damaged discarded wasted lives. The devil came to steal, kill, and destroy; Jesus came to bring life and life more abounding.

So we search the scriptures dilligently to justify our own indiscretions and encourage others to follow us in our indiscretions so that we feel better about ourselves and all the time miss Jesus. I believe that this discussion has served to clarify my use of alcohol. It is lawful, but not always expedient.

Doug

 

[e=mv^2]

Also noted, the Hebrew definition of the word in question did not suggest that it was the same as cannabis.

qaneh besem

You do not see any suggesstion that qaneh besem could be cannabis? Cana bishem? Nothing?

I think the posative uses of these substances are the answer to the statement that God pronounced the seed bearing plants as good for food (consumption) in Gen 1:29.

How about using cannabis as food? Are you now willing to admit that eating cannabis is not sinful?

It is a stretch however to compare the opium dens of the orient to the medicinal use of morphine under a controlled environment. I also realize that it is a stretch to compare the social use of marijuana or cannabis to the opium dens. Where is the line to be drawn?

THIS IS THE REAL QUESTION! WELL DONE! Herein lies the meat of the topic.

Sex is sacred, but there is a line. A heterosexual relationship in marriage is God blessed while an adulterous relationship is sinful. There is a line.

Where is the line drawn with respect to the use of such substances?

Use vs abuse. You draw it in the exact same place that you draw it with alcohol. If you are using the substance as a replacement for God it is sinful. If you worship the substance then it is sinful. If you give the substance power over your life then it is sinful.

The stronger illicit drugs like cocaine, heroin, speed, crack and the like leave a trail of damaged discarded wasted lives. The devil came to steal, kill, and destroy; Jesus came to bring life and life more abounding.

I challenge you Doug - point blank - tell me how many people die from using alcohol every year (do not include motor vehicle accidents as they could be caused by outside events) and tell me how many people have died from using cannabis in the past 50 years. 1 year with alcohol vs 50 with cannabis. Tell me which number is greater. Tell me what steals kills and destroys. Yet alcohol is not a sin and cannabis is?

So we search the scriptures dilligently to justify our own indiscretions and encourage others to follow us in our indiscretions so that we feel better about ourselves and all the time miss Jesus. I believe that this discussion has served to clarify my use of alcohol. It is lawful, but not always expedient.

There ya go. There is a big difference in doing something that is lawful but not profitable and somehting that is sin. The wages of sin are death - the wages of lawful unprofitable behavior is that it was... well.. unprofitable.

Herein lies the issue - in converting to christianity we have to repent our sin. Adding things that we have to repent of adds to the difficulty of the conversion. Jesus said that his yoke was light - it is. We should never do anything that places added weight on that yoke.

And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
We should not make hoops for people to jump through! Do not add any requirements to what is required.

and just what was required?

And after they had held their peace, James answered,

This is JAMES of all people saying this! This is the brother of Christ!

saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Idols - fornicaiton - things strangled - blood.

Does it say cannabis? How about Drugs? Any mention of alcohol? Anything?
These things were good enough for James and the apostles.

What is it that is the common theme with those 4 things? How is it that those things were relevant to roman society? What were the apostles trying to accomplish by stating those 4 rules?

Turn away from the idols. Do not eat the meat that was offered to the idols. Do not go to the orgies that were held in the temples of the idols. Do not drink blood for the idols. Do not strangle animals for idols.
Why was the word φαρμακευσιν used? How was that word relevant to the average roman? Guess what? If your pig got sick you could go visit a φαρμακευσιν and get a potion brewed by an oracle and the spirits would heal your pig.

That is the issue - it is man again relying on things other than God to do godly things. It is just another way of man turning away. I do not care if it is pure water - if you believe that the spirits have been distilled in order to work some miracle then guess what? It is sinful! That comes out of the HEART. That is sin.

I think that it is also interesting to note how it is that cannabis became illegal in the US.
It was not until the jazz era that people became concerend with it. Remember the father of our country George Washington said: "Make the most of the hemp seed, sow it everywhere". Thomas Jefferson grew it as well as tobbacco.

So why was cannabis outlawed?
The first law against marijuana was passed in Utah as a result of mormons returning from mexico and smoking it. The mormon church frowned upon it's use and effectively passed the law there. From that point on the law was used as a device to repel mexican immigration in the west and it was used to oppress blacks and specifically the jazz culture in the east.

A 1934 newspaper read:

"Marihuana influences Negroes to look at white people in the eye, step on white men's shadows and look at a white woman twice."

Harry Anslinger, a very ambitious man who effectively built the bureau of narcotics, made the following statements:

"There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos, and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz, and swing, result from marijuana use. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers, and any others."

"...the primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races."

"Marijuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death."

"Reefer makes darkies think they're as good as white men."

"Marihuana leads to pacifism and communist brainwashing"

"You smoke a joint and you're likely to kill your brother."

"Marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind."

Now tell me - why is cannabis illegal? Is it because it was sinful or is it because statements like the above were spread? Read them again. That evil reefer makes the darkies think they are as good as white men! Smoke a joint and you will kill your own brother!!! The main reason to outlaw grass was it's effect on the degenerate races.

Nevermind that Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and many many others grew the stuff en mass. Nevermind that the first ever marijuana law was a requirement to grow the stuff!:

America's first marijuana law was enacted at Jamestown Colony, Virginia in 1619. It was a law "ordering" all farmers to grow Indian hempseed. There were several other "must grow" laws over the next 200 years (you could be jailed for not growing hemp during times of shortage in Virginia between 1763 and 1767), and during most of that time, hemp was legal tender (you could even pay your taxes with hemp -- try that today!) Hemp was such a critical crop for a number of purposes (including essential war requirements - rope, etc.) that the government went out of its way to encourage growth.

So remember! The next time a darkie steps on a white man's shadow or looks him in the eye it is the result of MARIJUANA!

 

[Doug45]

I took a look at some writings by the Coptic church concerning marijuana and its use in their worship. I understand where you're coming from. Feel it is futile to continue the discussion.

If what they say is true, that it takes cannabis in the form of incense to encounter God and that cannabis is the sacrement described as the last supper experience of Jesus with His disciples then my faith would be most shaken.

But, I don't believe it for a minute, Their claims are so twisted and outrageous, unorthodox and in addition are judgmental about other aspects of life that they hinder your cause to legalize it. If you base your thoughts and position on them, the foundation of your spiritual heritage is not even sand, but more like a vapour or smoke if you'll forgive the pun. For your sake, don't openly admit to an affinity with the Coptic church.

For all those who might be taken in by this line of thinking, please search out even a little information about the church that claims to have such exclusive right to the truth. Gnosticism or special knowledge that only the enlightened can obtain was the entire focus of Paul's letter to the Colassians. There is only Christ and He is everything. You don't need cannabis.

You can track me down other places in these forums, but I'll leave you to your deceptions in this matter.

Doug