Can you lose your salvation

createdtoworship · Jul 10, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I must have missed the post. I did not see you disproving the points I made on Matthew 12:31-32. The context is Matthew 12:37 that says we can be condemned by our words. You did not disprove that to my knowledge. You also did not explain what the speaking a word against the Son of Man means. You did not explain what "the world to come" means in reference to speaking a word against the Holy Ghost. What is the world to come in your view? Do you think there will be unbelievers committing the unforgivable sin in the Millennium with Christ reigning?

Mormons pray for a burning in the belly to confirm what thy desire to be true, it doesn't mean they are correct by this method. Prayer alone is not the foundation of our faith. People can have false visions of Jesus, etc. So I would say that you need to prove your case with the Bible and not just prayer alone. When God answers my prayer sometimes, it is in the form of Scripture.

Your life experience is not above what God's Word says.

Anyways, I have come to learn that believers must believe the Bible at face value (instead of trying to insert beliefs that are not there into it). Believers also cannot justifying sin and evil on any level. Job 28:28 says that to forsake evil is understanding. 1 Timothy 6:3-4 says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ, and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing.

If one is saved while abiding in grievous sin, then it does not really matter if we overcome grievous sin. Maybe I misunderstood you, but by what you said so far, it leads me to believe that a Christian can live carnal on some small level and they can still be saved. If such is the case, then why bother to work out one's salvation with fear and trembling? That is why I have a hard time believing anything that you say, dear sir. If one does not believe how sin can cause a loss of salvation as per Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, 1 John 3:15, and Revelation 21:8, there is not much I can do to convince them otherwise (unless God talks to their heart about it). But what scares me is that some will never want to hear what God wants to say to them about living holy the correct way.

May God's love and peace be upon you and your family.

here is where I refute your view that blasphemy of the holy spirit is basically cursing out the holy spirit, and not refusing the spirits work of the Gospel message.

so you cannot provide any known examples of someone blaspheming the Holy Spirit according to your definition. So you prove my point, that it is the wrong interpretation. Why would God only have one sin that was unforgivable, yet we can provide no examples of anyone doing such an action? For example if I tell you that if you jump to the moon, that sin will cause you to forfeit salvation. It is a meaningless warning because it is not applicable to the Human race. Secondly this is a contradiction. Because a lack of faith in Christ is an unforgivable sin. Yet is says in Mark 3:28 and Math 12:23 that "all sin will be forgiven." So if all sin, even lack of faith in Christ are forgiven, then everyone would be saved, which is universalism. The only other interpretation is that it's talking about sins other than lack of faith, because most don't view lack of faith as a sin. But in many places in the Bible lack of faith is considered a sin. Romans 14:23. So again your view contradicts. So in order not to contradict, one must also view blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as lack of faith in Christ, in addition to actual blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This will do two things this will make the verse practical, as in, there are examples of it being done. And secondly, it will allow the scripture not to contradict other scripture.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 10, 2019

gradyll said:
here is where I refute your view that blasphemy of the holy spirit is basically cursing out the holy spirit, and not refusing the spirits work of the Gospel message.

so you cannot provide any known examples of someone blaspheming the Holy Spirit according to your definition. So you prove my point, that it is the wrong interpretation. Why would God only have one sin that was unforgivable, yet we can provide no examples of anyone doing such an action? For example if I tell you that if you jump to the moon, that sin will cause you to forfeit salvation. It is a meaningless warning because it is not applicable to the Human race. Secondly this is a contradiction. Because a lack of faith in Christ is an unforgivable sin. Yet is says in Mark 3:28 and Math 12:23 that "all sin will be forgiven." So if all sin, even lack of faith in Christ are forgiven, then everyone would be saved, which is universalism. The only other interpretation is that it's talking about sins other than lack of faith, because most don't view lack of faith as a sin. But in many places in the Bible lack of faith is considered a sin. Romans 14:23. So again your view contradicts. So in order not to contradict, one must also view blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as lack of faith in Christ, in addition to actual blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This will do two things this will make the verse practical, as in, there are examples of it being done. And secondly, it will allow the scripture not to contradict other scripture.

Well, you are not dealing with the text within Matthew 12:31-32. You are not looking at and explaining the actual points of the words from the actual passage I brought up. You are inserting a belief into this portion of the text and not addressing the actual words in what they say.

Again for your review:

The Points you are ignoring are:

#1. Context: Matthew 12:37 that says: -

"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." (Matthew 12:37).

[My Comment: Being condemned by one's words is the context.]
How do you explain this?

#2. Part of the Passage: Matthew 12:32 that says:

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him," (Matthew 12:32).

[My Comment: What does speaking a word against the Son of man (with the potential to be forgiven) mean?]
Please answer this question.

#3. Part of the Passage: Matthew 12:32 that says:

"...neither in this world, neither in the world to come." (Matthew 12:32).

[My Comment: What does "the world to come" mean?]
Please answer this question.

If you continue to ignore the words from the Scriptures in the points I brought forth, then there is no basis for us to have a discussion on what God's' Word says because you are disregarding the actual words from the Bible I brought up.

Good day to you, dear sir.

createdtoworship · Jul 10, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, you are not dealing with the text within Matthew 12:31-32. You are not looking at and explaining the actual points of the words from the actual passage I brought up. You are inserting a belief into this portion of the text and not addressing the actual words in what they say.

Again for your review: The Points you are ignoring are:

Context: Matthew 12:37 that says: - "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Being condemned by one's words is the context.

Part of the Passage: Matthew 12:32 that says: - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him," What does speaking a word against the Son of man (with the potential to be forgiven) mean?

Part of the Passage: Matthew 12:32 that says: - "...neither in this world, neither in the world to come." What does "the world to come" mean?

If you continue to ignore the words from the Scriptures in the points I brought forth, then there is no basis for us to have a discussion on what God's' Word says because you are disregarding the actual words from the Bible I brought up.

Good day to you, dear sir.

the point i bring up is that you are quoting two contradictory passages according to your view. Only my perspective allows those two verses not to contradict.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 10, 2019

gradyll said:
the point i bring up is that you are quoting two contradictory passages according to your view. Only my perspective allows those two verses not to contradict.

You are still not addressing the points I brought up in the Word of God itself.

Good day to you, sir.

createdtoworship · Jul 10, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
You are still not addressing the points I brought up in the Word of God itself.

Good day to you, sir.

sir I am addressing all points, it's just that your view contradicts itself, and the word of God both. I can post the two verses that contradict if you want, but you probably won't want me to. Because of the fact you know your view contradicts, and/or you are scared that it may contradict you wish to flee this conversation. Again, look up cognitive dissonance. It is the fear you have right now of holding contradictory views simultaneously. This fear is making you flee this conversation prematurely.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 10, 2019

gradyll said:
sir I am addressing all points, it's just that your view contradicts itself, and the word of God both. I can post the two verses that contradict if you want, but you probably won't want me to. Because of the fact you know your view contradicts, and/or you are scared that it may contradict you wish to flee this conversation. Again, look up cognitive dissonance. It is the fear you have right now of holding contradictory views simultaneously. This fear is making you flee this conversation prematurely.

Please refer to the actual post # you believed you addressed my 3 specific points in Post #342.

Important Note: Please refresh the webpage. I edited my post to hopefully be a little clearer on a visual level.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 10, 2019

@gradyll

As for your comment about me fleeing prematurely:

Well, I would only leave this conversation on the basis that you will not continue to address the actual specific points I brought up in Scripture, and not for the reason that you say. So again, please show me where in this thread you specifically answered, explained, or addressed the points I made in Scripture. If you have not done so, please do so now.

Thank you;
And may God's goodness be upon you.

createdtoworship · Jul 10, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
@gradyll

As for your comment about me fleeing prematurely:

Well, I would only leave this conversation on the basis that you will not continue to address the actual specific points I brought up in Scripture, and not for the reason that you say. So again, please show me where in this thread you specifically answered, explained, or addressed the points I made in Scripture. If you have not done so, please do so now.

Thank you;
And may God's goodness be upon you.

logically speaking if an argument is refuted with logic do I need to reply to your posts at all? See I proved your viewpoint contradicts scripture. So unless you quote the scripture I did, no argument will be able to make it not contradict, unless you address the root cause of the problem. So my point is I don't need to address your post, when it already is self refuted.

here I provide the paragraph where I show your view of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit contradicts known scripture here: ( I even underlined it for you)

you cannot provide any known examples of someone blaspheming the Holy Spirit according to your definition. So you prove my point, that it is the wrong interpretation. Why would God only have one sin that was unforgivable, yet we can provide no examples of anyone doing such an action? For example if I tell you that if you jump to the moon, that sin will cause you to forfeit salvation. It is a meaningless warning because it is not applicable to the Human race. Secondly this is a contradiction. Because a lack of faith in Christ is an unforgivable sin. Yet is says in Mark 3:28 and Math 12:23 that "all sin will be forgiven." So if all sin, even lack of faith in Christ are forgiven, then everyone would be saved, which is universalism. The only other interpretation is that it's talking about sins other than lack of faith, because most don't view lack of faith as a sin. But in many places in the Bible lack of faith is considered a sin. Romans 14:23. So again your view contradicts. So in order not to contradict, one must also view blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as lack of faith in Christ, in addition to actual blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This will do two things this will make the verse practical, as in, there are examples of it being done. And secondly, it will allow the scripture not to contradict other scripture.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 10, 2019

gradyll said:
logically speaking if an argument is refuted with logic do I need to reply to your posts at all? See I proved your viewpoint contradicts scripture. So unless you quote the scripture I did, no argument will be able to make it not contradict, unless you address the root cause of the problem. So my point is I don't need to address your post, when it already is self refuted.

here I provide the paragraph where I show your view of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit contradicts known scripture here: ( I even underlined it for you)

you cannot provide any known examples of someone blaspheming the Holy Spirit according to your definition. So you prove my point, that it is the wrong interpretation. Why would God only have one sin that was unforgivable, yet we can provide no examples of anyone doing such an action? For example if I tell you that if you jump to the moon, that sin will cause you to forfeit salvation. It is a meaningless warning because it is not applicable to the Human race. Secondly this is a contradiction. Because a lack of faith in Christ is an unforgivable sin. Yet is says in Mark 3:28 and Math 12:23 that "all sin will be forgiven." So if all sin, even lack of faith in Christ are forgiven, then everyone would be saved, which is universalism. The only other interpretation is that it's talking about sins other than lack of faith, because most don't view lack of faith as a sin. But in many places in the Bible lack of faith is considered a sin. Romans 14:23. So again your view contradicts. So in order not to contradict, one must also view blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as lack of faith in Christ, in addition to actual blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This will do two things this will make the verse practical, as in, there are examples of it being done. And secondly, it will allow the scripture not to contradict other scripture.

We cannot prove that God created the Earth in six literal 24 hour days, but we know it is true based on what Scripture says. Again, the basis of our faith is God's Word and not by sight or what I eyes can witness.

Moving on (because you are not dealing with the actual words in the Bible I brought forth).

May God bless you.

Dr. Jack · Jul 10, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Circumcision Salvationism:

Most misunderstand Paul on Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Galatians 3:1-13, and Romans 4:1-5; This is because they do not realize that Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

God's Grace [Jesus] is the Foundation of our Faith:

Believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ). It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are not ultimately saved by works of righteousness we have done alone without God's mercy (Titus 3:5). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5).

Obedience to God [An Outpouring of our Faith] is Essential to Eternal Life:

The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

Make no mistake, Scripture is also abundantly clear in that it teaches we are saved by "works of faith" after we are saved by God's grace, too. Simply click on the following spoiler button to check out the verses.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

First of all, I really don't think you understand why people perish.

People take verses such as this ...

21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation

... and promote the idea that being "liars" and the like, are the "why" behind people perishing. This is not so.

The cause for people perishing is "unbelief".

Now as unbelievers, people commit various sorts of sin, such as those listed in Revelation 21:8

Above, Matthew 19 was referenced:

In verses 16 - 22 Jesus deals with a young man that had "great possessions".

Let's cut to the chase and address what really took place here. Jesus knew the heart of this young man. What he really wanted was his current life to continue forever. He wasn't looking for what Jesus was offering. This is where the real story is!

First, you cannot have even a real meaningful physical life apart from following God's Commandments. But this rich young man, only wanted what he already had, to never end.

Jesus indeed established the fact that one cannot enter even this life without keeping His commandments, if one wants purpose in life.

But what about "eternal life"?

Jesus said this,

19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. Matthew

What was Jesus saying? Was Jesus teaching that all Christians must sell all their possessions, and sware to a life of poverty to have "eternal life"?

Not at all.

Then what was Jesus teaching?

Jesus was actually saying, "Repent, or perish"!

The rich young man believed in his own possessions to secure his future. Jesus was saying, Repent, STOP believing in your possessions to secure your future, and START believing that I AM your future!

People who oppose this simplicity attach works to salvation. But when you attach works to salvation, that Salvation is no longer a salvation of grace.

Let's now consider the words of James.

James isn't saying that works are part of our justification. But he does support the idea that works of service occur after salvation is secure.

To teach anything else would contradict salvation by grace.

I am OSAS, yet, I have tried to be a good ambassador for Christ. However, none of what I have done, nor anything of what I may do in the future is attached to maintaining my salvation. I simply cannot help to maintain that which has already been both purchased, and secured by, the work of God.

What I do to glorify God is out of worship and appreciation, but it has absolutely no value of merit before God, to place against the payment for my salvation. That would be blasphemous. For me to think that I could compare anything I have done, to that which He has done on my behalf.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 10, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
First of all, I really don't think you understand why people perish.

People take verses such as this ...

21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation

... and promote the idea that being "liars" and the like, are the "why" behind people perishing. This is not so.

The cause for people perishing is "unbelief".

Now as unbelievers, people commit various sorts of sin, such as those listed in Revelation 21:8

Above, Matthew 19 was referenced:

In verses 16 - 22 Jesus deals with a young man that had "great possessions".

Let's cut to the chase and address what really took place here. Jesus knew the heart of this young man. What he really wanted was his current life to continue forever. He wasn't looking for what Jesus was offering. This is where the real story is!

First, you cannot have even a real meaningful physical life apart from following God's Commandments. But this rich young man, only wanted what he already had, to never end.

Jesus indeed established the fact that one cannot enter even this life without keeping His commandments, if one wants purpose in life.

But what about "eternal life"?

Jesus said this,

19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. Matthew

What was Jesus saying? Was Jesus teaching that all Christians must sell all their possessions, and sware to a life of poverty to have "eternal life"?

Not at all.

Then what was Jesus teaching?

Jesus was actually saying, "Repent, or perish"!

The rich young man believed in his own possessions to secure his future. Jesus was saying, Repent, STOP believing in your possessions to secure your future, and START believing that I AM your future!

People who oppose this simplicity attach works to salvation. But when you attach works to salvation, that Salvation is no longer a salvation of grace.

Let's now consider the words of James.

James isn't saying that works are part of our justification. But he does support the idea that works of service occur after salvation is secure.

To teach anything else would contradict salvation by grace.

I am OSAS, yet, I have tried to be a good ambassador for Christ. However, none of what I have done, nor anything of what I may do in the future is attached to maintaining my salvation. I simply cannot help to maintain that which has already been both purchased, and secured by, the work of God.

What I do to glorify God is out of worship and appreciation, but it has absolutely no value of merit before God, to place against the payment for my salvation. That would be blasphemous. For me to think that I could compare anything I have done, to that which He has done on my behalf.

Are you justified by faith in God?
This is what James is saying in the latter half of James 2:24. So if you are to consistent with James 2:24, you have to believe we are justified by works before God. For James 2:24 does not say we are justified by works before men and justified by works before God. It merely uses the word “justified” in relation to both works and faith. Seeing we can only be justified by faith in God and not men, this first part of the verse must also mean that we are justified by works before God. Proof? James tells us Abraham was justified by works by offering Isaac. No man was present to witness Abraham’s faith in action, and God blesses Abraham and his descendants on the account of his obedience.

More proof?

Jesus says that those believers who did wonderful works were told to depart from Him because they worked iniquity or sin (See Matthew 7:23). Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). According to James, God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

Dr. Jack · Jul 10, 2019

gradyll said:
That is why I don't believe you can lose salvation through sin. Because Jesus paid for our sin. However one sin He did not pay for that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. And even after you have been saved, if you commit that sin, then you get Hell. But it is not about sin, as in the traditional sense of sin. It's about losing faith. Disbelief. You have to believe that every one doubts eventually. They doubt miracles, they doubt God's existence, they doubt the validity of prophecy or the inspiration of the Bible. Doubts are a normal part of Christianity. But when a sin deceives us into defending it, against God. We tend to think "Would God really spoil my fun?" If I enjoy my sin so much, why would God say no to it? And the doubt starts. It starts as a small seed, and if it is watered it grows. The end result is apostacy. Leaving the faith all together. But it starts as a permissive sin. Another type of apostacy is getting saved at a crusade and not getting fed. Soon philosophy class at college gets to you. And your teacher told you about some contradictions in the Bible, and you believed them without studying them. Soon simply because you were not planted, you lost your faith. There are several types of apostacy. None of it is about sin. But it is about losing faith, and eventually you no longer believe in Jesus, and this is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

I don't agree with "loosening faith" being blasphemy.

I believe that God would take us home as a disobedient child before we could do such a thing.

Dr. Jack · Jul 10, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Are you justified by faith in God?
This is what James is saying in the latter half of James 2:24. So if you are to consistent with James 2:24, you have to believe we are justified by works before God. For James 2:24 does not say we are justified by works before men and justified by works before God. It merely uses the word “justified” in relation to both works and faith. Seeing we can only be justified by faith in God and not men, this first part of the verse must also mean that we are justified by works before God. Proof? James tells us Abraham was justified by works by offering Isaac. No man was present to witness Abraham’s faith in action, and God blesses Abraham and his descendants on the account of his obedience.

Where was Isaac when Abraham's faith was in action?

2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James

James himself said, "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness".

Was righteousness imputed by God because of "belief", or because of "works"?

Does not even James agree with Paul that it was "belief"?

Step 1) Abraham believed God. What did Abraham believe?

22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. Genesis

Abraham told his young men, "Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you".

1) Now keep in mind, Isaac was born of Sarah who was past the time (age) of child bearing. (Isaac was born from a dead womb.) That was a miracle in itself.

2) God had previously told Abraham ...

13:7 And there was a strife between the herdmen of Abram's cattle and the herdmen of Lot's cattle: and the Canaanite and the Perizzite dwelled then in the land.12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee.12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing. Genesis

This means that Abraham knew that God must A) either bring Isaac back to life after he sacrificed him; or B) raise him up another son to replace Isaac. But due to the words Abraham used with his men, God guided Abraham's words to the former.

Abraham was justified the moment he believed God in Ur of the Chaldees. Works are the result and yes, even proof of our faith, not to God (He see's our heart already), but A) to ourselves that God continues to work in our lives; and B) to others, that indeed, God is working in our lives.

James said ...

2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. James

Here is the purpose of James' words ...

When a person claims to be a believer, but shows no outward evidence of belief; we are just in questioning that belief. Why?

5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinthians

Years ago, I knew of the famous evangelist Carl Hatch. He often gave his testimony. He spoke of how after receiving Christ as Saviour, he shared his new faith with a fellow worker. This fellow worker told Carl Hatch that he had been saved for years! Carl Hatch was quick to tell his fellow worker that he (the fellow worker) hadn't received the same salvation as he (Carl Hatch) had ... why? Because there was a severe lack of evidence of it in the man's life.

This is the message of James ... faith causes us to be a new creature! But be clear, works indicate salvation, they do not earn salvation.

Hence, works follow salvation as a means of establishing to both ourselves, and others, that our faith is real. God doesn't need to see our works, He sees our hearts perfectly.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 10, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
Where was Isaac when Abraham's faith was in action?

2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James

James himself said, "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness".

Was righteousness imputed by God because of "belief", or because of "works"?

Does not even James agree with Paul that it was "belief"?

Step 1) Abraham believed God. What did Abraham believe?

22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. Genesis

Abraham told his young men, "Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you".

1) Now keep in mind, Isaac was born of Sarah who was past the time (age) of child bearing. (Isaac was born from a dead womb.) That was a miracle in itself.

2) God had previously told Abraham ...

13:7 And there was a strife between the herdmen of Abram's cattle and the herdmen of Lot's cattle: and the Canaanite and the Perizzite dwelled then in the land.12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee.12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing. Genesis

This means that Abraham knew that God must A) either bring Isaac back to life after he sacrificed him; or B) raise him up another son to replace Isaac. But due to the words Abraham used with his men, God guided Abraham's words to the former.

Abraham was justified the moment he believed God in Ur of the Chaldees. Works are the result and yes, even proof of our faith, not to God (He see's our heart already), but A) to ourselves that God continues to work in our lives; and B) to others, that indeed, God is working in our lives.

James said ...

2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. James

Here is the purpose of James' words ...

When a person claims to be a believer, but shows no outward evidence of belief; we are just in questioning that belief. Why?

5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinthians

Years ago, I knew of the famous evangelist Carl Hatch. He often gave his testimony. He spoke of how after receiving Christ as Saviour, he shared his new faith with a fellow worker. This fellow worker told Carl Hatch that he had been saved for years! Carl Hatch was quick to tell his fellow worker that he (the fellow worker) hadn't received the same salvation as he (Carl Hatch) had ... why? Because there was a severe lack of evidence of it in the man's life.

This is the message of James ... faith causes us to be a new creature! But be clear, works indicate salvation, they do not earn salvation.

Hence, works follow salvation as a means of establishing to both ourselves, and others, that our faith is real. God doesn't need to see our works, He sees our hearts perfectly.

Basically you are saying that "works" is a conditon of being saved. I heard this excuse a bunch of times before. But it is not biblical. The Bible says we need to endure, be faithful unto death, overcome, continue, etc.

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
Continue in his goodness otherwise we can be cut off (like the Jews) (Se ROmans 11:21-22).

James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
A dead faith cannot save anyone.
Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness no man shall see the Lord.
By the way, we are also told to follow after peace with all men as a part of... "no man shall see the Lord.", as well.

In other words, I just do not see a sin and still be saved type belief taught in the Bible.
You shouldn't need a Bible to tell you that such a thing is wrong, but if you do, it is clearly taught on almost every page of the New Testament. Jesus warns us about how looking at a woman in lust can cause our whole body to be destroyed in hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if you don't forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Jesus said we can be condemned by our words (Matthew 12:37). John says that if we hate our brother, we are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. (1 John 3:15). John says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). John does not say there is another group of liars who are going to miss out on the Lake of Fire. He said ALL liars. Why else would Jesus tell certain believers who did sin or iniquity to depart from Him? (See Matthew 7:23).

For these reasons (among many others) I find your belief hard to work when reading the New Testament. It just doesn't exist. I am sorry. Belief Alone-ism is a forced interpretation upon the Bible. We are saved by "God's grace through faith + Works of Faith." That is how it works. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we need both a belief in the truth, and Sanctification of the Spirit as a part of God choosing us to salvation. For if a person lives after the flesh (sin), they will die, but if they put to death the deeds of the body (sin) via by the power of the Spirit, they will live (live eternally) (Romans 8:13). So if a person lives one way, they are going to die spiritually, and if they live another way, they are going to live spiritually. It is as simple as that.

Dr. Jack · Jul 10, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Alexander Severus. you are saying that "works" is a conditon of being saved. I heard this excuse a bunch of times before. But it is not biblical. The Bible says we need to endure, be faithful unto death, overcome, continue, etc.

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
Continue in his goodness otherwise we can be cut off (like the Jews) (Se ROmans 11:21-22).

James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
A dead faith cannot save anyone.
Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness no man shall see the Lord.
By the way, we are also told to follow after peace with all men as a part of... "no man shall see the Lord.", as well.

In other words, I just do not see a sin and still be saved type belief taught in the Bible.
You shouldn't need a Bible to tell you that such a thing is wrong, but if you do, it is clearly taught on almost every page of the New Testament. Jesus warns us about how looking at a woman in lust can cause our whole body to be destroyed in hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if you don't forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Jesus said we can be condemned by our words (Matthew 12:37). John says that if we hate our brother, we are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. (1 John 3:15). John says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). John does not say there is another group of liars who are going to miss out on the Lake of Fire. He said ALL liars. Why else would Jesus tell certain believers who did sin or iniquity to depart from Him? (See Matthew 7:23).

For these reasons (among many others) I find your belief hard to work when reading the New Testament. It just doesn't exist. I am sorry. Belief Alone-ism is a forced interpretation upon the Bible. We are saved by "God's grace through faith + Works of Faith." That is how it works. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we need both a belief in the truth, and Sanctification of the Spirit as a part of God choosing us to salvation. For if a person lives after the flesh (sin), they will die, but if they put to death the deeds of the body (sin) via by the power of the Spirit, they will live (live eternally) (Romans 8:13). So if a person lives one way, they are going to die spiritually, and if they live another way, they are going to live spiritually. It is as simple as that.

No, I'm not saying that at all. Salvation is by grace through faith. And I subscribe to OSAS.

I do believe that the Holy Spirit will change our 'wants' to align with His 'wants'.

I did not say that "that "works" is a conditon of being saved. I did say that "works" give evidence of salvation.

Precisely, I stated ...

Dr. Jack said:
But be clear, works indicate salvation, they do not earn salvation.

createdtoworship · Jul 10, 2019

duplicate

createdtoworship · Jul 10, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
We cannot prove that God created the Earth in six literal 24 hour days, but we know it is true based on what Scripture says. Again, the basis of our faith is God's Word and not by sight or what I eyes can witness.

Moving on (because you are not dealing with the actual words in the Bible I brought forth).

May God bless you.

what does proving a literal creation have to do with salvation doctrines? Your all over the place.

let me repost a previous post, if you are done with this debate, I want the readers to have the section that contradicts your view fresh in their memory:

here is where I refute your view that blasphemy of the holy spirit is basically cursing out the holy spirit, and not refusing the spirits work of the Gospel message.

a lack of faith in Christ is an unforgivable sin. Yet is says in Mark 3:28 and Math 12:23 that "all sin will be forgiven." So if all sin, even lack of faith in Christ are forgiven, then everyone would be saved, which is universalism. The only other interpretation is that it's talking about sins other than lack of faith, because most don't view lack of faith as a sin. But in many places in the Bible lack of faith is considered a sin. Romans 14:23. So again your view contradicts. So in order not to contradict, one must also view blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as lack of faith in Christ, in addition to actual blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This will do two things this will make the verse practical, as in, there are examples of it being done. And secondly, it will allow the scripture not to contradict other scripture.

createdtoworship · Jul 10, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
I don't agree with "loosening faith" being blasphemy.

I believe that God would take us home as a disobedient child before we could do such a thing.

again let me post the contradiction that arises when you don't believe lack of faith is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:

a lack of faith in Christ is an unforgivable sin. Yet is says in Mark 3:28 and Math 12:23 that "all sin will be forgiven." So if all sin, even lack of faith in Christ are forgiven, then everyone would be saved, which is universalism. The only other interpretation is that it's talking about sins other than lack of faith, because most don't view lack of faith as a sin. But in many places in the Bible lack of faith is considered a sin. Romans 14:23. So again your view contradicts. So in order not to contradict, one must also view blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as lack of faith in Christ, in addition to actual blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This will do two things this will make the verse practical, as in, there are examples of it being done. And secondly, it will allow the scripture not to contradict other scripture.

Dr. Jack · Jul 10, 2019

gradyll said:
again let me post the contradiction that arises when you don't believe lack of faith is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit:

a lack of faith in Christ is an unforgivable sin. Yet is says in Mark 3:28 and Math 12:23 that "all sin will be forgiven." So if all sin, even lack of faith in Christ are forgiven, then everyone would be saved, which is universalism. The only other interpretation is that it's talking about sins other than lack of faith, because most don't view lack of faith as a sin. But in many places in the Bible lack of faith is considered a sin. Romans 14:23. So again your view contradicts. So in order not to contradict, one must also view blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as lack of faith in Christ, in addition to actual blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This will do two things this will make the verse practical, as in, there are examples of it being done. And secondly, it will allow the scripture not to contradict other scripture.

Can you provide a Scripture that equates "loosing faith" with "blasphemy"?

createdtoworship · Jul 10, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
Can you provide a Scripture that equates "loosing faith" with "blasphemy"?

look at it this way.

if you don't equate the two, you have a contradiction within the Bible. a real contradiction, that you can email to athiests, and sell to the highest bidder causing people to lose faith in scripture. Do you want that on your head. I realize your faith is stronger than a contradiction. But can we honestly say that we don't have blind faith, when our scriptures contradict? Are we any better than the mormons and the Jehovah's witnesses, when we prove their books contradict logically, if ours does too?

The trinity was developed as the first systematic theology. I think one can error too far in the realm of theology, agreed. But it was originally developed to incorporate the trinity. A word which cannot be found in the Bible. There is not one verse that proves the trinity. 1 John 5:9 I use because I believe the TR is a valid manuscript and superiour. But FF bruce and most modern translations omit that verse as a spurious late addition. So without that verse there is no single verse that prove the three in one of the trinity.

you have verses that prove Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God , but those are dualities not a trinity.

so again. Just because I cannot quote a verse that says blasphemy of the Holy spirit is not believing the Gospel, it is very obvious what it is.

and besides I actually believe it to mean two things, cursing out the Holy Spirit, and believing Christ did miracles by the power of the Devil, which is sort of like, not having faith.

But anyway, I am going to put together a list of commentaries that I respect, and some of them will be for my view and others will be for your view.

I do this to save time, I feel most of the observations of the text will be brought forth in the commentaries and we can discuss them at that point.

thanks

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