Can you know you are saved?

[Dominus Fidelis]

In Orthodoxy, can you know you are in a state of salvation or is it undetermined until you die and are judged?

 

[prodromos]

I suspect the one who believes he has "made it" is the one who is deluding himself and is in great danger. Even the Apostle Saint Paul considered himself the worst of sinners and this same attitude comes out loud and clear in the lives of many of the saints in the church. We keep on struggling and trust in God's mercy, else we can easily fall into pride.

Saint Silouan the Athonite was given the following wisdom;
"Keep your mind in hell, and do not despair"

John.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

I suspect the one who believes he has "made it" is the one who is deluding himself and is in great danger. Even the Apostle Saint Paul considered himself the worst of sinners and this same attitude comes out loud and clear in the lives of many of the saints in the church. We keep on struggling and trust in God's mercy, else we can easily fall into pride.

Saint Silouan the Athonite was given the following wisdom;
"Keep your mind in hell, and do not despair"

John.

I agree that we shouldn't always assume we are standing firm, lest we fall.

 

[Iacobus]

In Orthodoxy, can you know you are in a state of salvation or is it undetermined until you die and are judged?

Is this the salvation thread back for an encore?

Look at it this way. If you do much baking, you know that there are two ways of doing it. One is to follow written instructions to the letter, bake at a specified temperature for a precise time, and then remove the loaf because -- well, because it must be done. This is how I see the RC approach specifically and the west in general approaching the question of salvation. "Hmmmm..I've done A, B and C. Yep, I'm saved."

The EO approach is more like the baker who has a general recipe in mind, but doesn't assume that after 45 minutes is up the creation is necessarily done. This baker tests the loaf, and may leave it in a little longer. The baker might even have varied the recipe a little bit. This approach is less by the book, and more the product of heart knowledge and, indeed, of pure love for the loaf.

See, our perception is that God views the heart of the individual to determine the state of the soul. That is way different than him going down a checklist. We are preparing our hearts, not meeting criteria. This isn't a scary thing, because we know that if we persevere and don't turn our backs on God, we will eventually enter the joy of His presence. As I said yesterday sometime, I am personally more comfortable and more joyful as an Orthodox Christian than I ever was before.

Finally, a quick note on one other thing. I don't have time to get into some of the new threads you've started, but I would caution about proof-texting the early fathers. Remember that the Fathers disagree among themselves on many things. The mind of the church is not discovered by prooftexting the Fathers any more than it is found proof texting the scriptures. If you want to really seriously discuss things like purgatory or the like, start with the seven ecumenical councils, instead of a prooftexting campaign. It is in the ECs that we find the mind of the Orthodox Church.

James

 

[Rilian]

Do we forgive our neighbors their trespasses? God also forgives us in His mercy. Do we refuse to forgive? God, too, will refuse to forgive us. As we treat our neighbors, so also does God treat us. The forgiveness, then, of your sins or unforgiveness, and hence also your salvation or destruction, depend on you yourself, man. For without forgiveness of sins there is no salvation. You can see for yourself how terrible it is.

-- St. Tikhon of Zadonsk

 

[NewToLife]

In orthodoxy we do not so much know that we are 'saved' as that through Christ and His church God has given to us the means by which we may be saved.

It seems to me that this is enough and that any effort expended on the question 'Am I saved?' would be better spent ensuring that the eventual answer to that question is yes.

 

[Rilian]

I see both Purgatory and classes of sins have come up in OBOB, so I though I would post this extract from this page.

What about Purgatory?

Purgatory was developed in the West to explain how the dead can work off the residual "debt" due to sin prior to the Second Coming. The assumption is that the slate needs to be clean before a person can come before the judgement seat. The Orthodox view of salvation is more process-oriented, and does not assume that sin and grace are quantifiable "substances" that must somehow be in balance before someone can enter God's Kingdom. There is just sin, and although some are more serious than others, Orthodox do not make the distinction between mortal and venial sins that Roman Catholics do. All sin is believed to be serious in Orthodoxy. We work toward holiness (deification or theosis), and this is a process that will not be completed in this lifetime. Indeed, the work of holiness is an eternal one, since God's holiness is limitless and hence forever beyond us! So we are in the middle of the process of sanctification at the moment of our deaths. How do we know we are ready? It is our jobs to make sure we are prepared for our deaths, and to make sure that we have spent a life working toward holiness. As a consequence of these differences, the doctrine of Purgatory is considered unnecessary in Orthodoxy.

Purgatory itself I don't think was declared dogma in the Catholic Church until the 15th century.

 

[Photini]

Do we forgive our neighbors their trespasses? God also forgives us in His mercy. Do we refuse to forgive? God, too, will refuse to forgive us. As we treat our neighbors, so also does God treat us. The forgiveness, then, of your sins or unforgiveness, and hence also your salvation or destruction, depend on you yourself, man. For without forgiveness of sins there is no salvation. You can see for yourself how terrible it is.

-- St. Tikhon of Zadonsk

I was just reading this section in that book (Journey to Heaven) last night.

 

[Rilian]

Jiiinnnxxxxx!

I like your new avatar by the way, is that St. Mary Magdalene on the Mount of Olives?

 

[Photini]

Yes it is.

 

[MariaRegina]

I see both Purgatory and classes of sins have come up in OBOB, so I though I would post this extract from this page.

What about Purgatory?

Purgatory was developed in the West to explain how the dead can work off the residual "debt" due to sin prior to the Second Coming. The assumption is that the slate needs to be clean before a person can come before the judgement seat. The Orthodox view of salvation is more process-oriented, and does not assume that sin and grace are quantifiable "substances" that must somehow be in balance before someone can enter God's Kingdom. There is just sin, and although some are more serious than others, Orthodox do not make the distinction between mortal and venial sins that Roman Catholics do. All sin is believed to be serious in Orthodoxy. We work toward holiness (deification or theosis), and this is a process that will not be completed in this lifetime. Indeed, the work of holiness is an eternal one, since God's holiness is limitless and hence forever beyond us! So we are in the middle of the process of sanctification at the moment of our deaths. How do we know we are ready? It is our jobs to make sure we are prepared for our deaths, and to make sure that we have spent a life working toward holiness. As a consequence of these differences, the doctrine of Purgatory is considered unnecessary in Orthodoxy.

Purgatory itself I don't think was declared dogma in the Catholic Church until the 15th century.

Purgatory was declared a doctrine in the Catholic Church at least by the Council of Florence. It was one of the doctrines held by the Latins that lead to the Great Schism of 1054. In addition to the Filioque, the Council of Florence required the Greeks to believe in the doctrine of Purgatory. this of course upset the laity of Constantinople and the reunion was very brief.

Reference: The Church Teaches, by the Jesuits of St. Mary, available through TAN books.