Can you have a Premillennial Kingdom with an Amillennial Christ?

[parousia70]

Right, the joke was in how you made the statement rhyme. Easy to miss though.

Maybe that's because it didn't rhyme...

 

[Timtofly]

No! Many were physically raised, like Lazurus was during Christ's ministry, in a show of the power of the cross. But the dead in Christ were caught up in spirit to heaven to reign with Christ, awaiting the physical resurrection at the end.

That is not what Revelation 20 says, not even symbolically.

Being caught up in the spirit is not in Paul's writings. Has the Holy Spirit taken you places? Paul was taken, but brought back. Phillip was taken to different places on earth, but did not die each time. John came to the present, and has not died. John, Enoch (Elijah) have been able to leave and come back at a different time. You spiritualize and symbolize verses in the Bible, yet fail to consider whole principles about God's witnesses. Jesus was not lying about John not dying until the Second Coming.

Revelation 20 can only happen after 19. It has nothing to do with the church at all. You do not even apply it properly, in forcing it into a time slot it does not belong. Your private interpretation is not doing any justice to God's Word. Changing Scripture to make theology work is not wise, nor rightly dividing the verses.

 

[BABerean2]

Revelation 20 can only happen after 19. It has nothing to do with the church at all. You do not even apply it properly, in forcing it into a time slot it does not belong. Your private interpretation is not doing any justice to God's Word. Changing Scripture to make theology work is not wise, nor rightly dividing the verses.

Where do you come up with this stuff, to present without any scripture to back it up?


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[sovereigngrace]

That is not what Revelation 20 says, not even symbolically.

Being caught up in the spirit is not in Paul's writings. Has the Holy Spirit taken you places? Paul was taken, but brought back. Phillip was taken to different places on earth, but did not die each time. John came to the present, and has not died. John, Enoch (Elijah) have been able to leave and come back at a different time. You spiritualize and symbolize verses in the Bible, yet fail to consider whole principles about God's witnesses. Jesus was not lying about John not dying until the Second Coming.

Revelation 20 can only happen after 19. It has nothing to do with the church at all. You do not even apply it properly, in forcing it into a time slot it does not belong. Your private interpretation is not doing any justice to God's Word. Changing Scripture to make theology work is not wise, nor rightly dividing the verses.

Stop fighting scripture. Let it speak for itself.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Where do you come up with this stuff, to present without any scripture to back it up?


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That is classic Pretrib and Premil.

 

[Marilyn C]

That is classic Pretrib and Premil.

I have posted my answer to you and others on my new thread - `Where will Christ reign in the New Heavens and New Earth?`

 

[Timtofly]

Where do you come up with this stuff, to present without any scripture to back it up?

Revelation 20 comes after Revelation 19. The character has not changed. I can read.

 

[Timtofly]

Stop fighting scripture. Let it speak for itself.

Stop twisting Scripture, and let the Holy Spirit speak for God’s plan of creation, set forth in Genesis 1-2. Any student of the Bible can create a narrative with dozens of Bible verses. Millions of church leaders do that billions of time each year. At least they used to. Now everything seems too standardized.

 

[BABerean2]

Revelation 20 comes after Revelation 19. The character has not changed. I can read.

And the 7th trumpet, and the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others is found before Revelation chapter 20. (Revelation 11:15-18)


Can you read that, also?


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[Timtofly]

And the 7th trumpet, and the time of the judgment of the dead, with reward for some, and destruction for others is found before Revelation chapter 20. (Revelation 11:15-18)
Can you read that, also?

I understand fully when Jesus Christ proclaims judgment on the sheep and goats and the wheat and tares.

 

[BABerean2]

I understand fully when Jesus Christ proclaims judgment on the sheep and goats and the wheat and tares.

Then you understand that Revelation 11:15-18 would be the Second Coming of Christ.



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[Timtofly]

Then you understand that Revelation 11:15-18 would be the Second Coming of Christ.

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. This time, Jesus Christ will not be here for 3.5 years, nor will there be A Cross. It will be a multiple year ministry. We cannot know the length, but Satan takes over in the Spring of 2023. Jesus Christ does not Co Rule during Satan's 3.5 years, nor does Jesus Christ and some living believers hide out somewhere on earth. Jesus is not hiding out in the earth currently, why would He hide out during Satan's 3.5 years of control?

 

[BABerean2]

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal. This time, Jesus Christ will not be here for 3.5 years, nor will there be A Cross. It will be a multiple year ministry. We cannot know the length, but Satan takes over in the Spring of 2023. Jesus Christ does not Co Rule during Satan's 3.5 years, nor does Jesus Christ and some living believers hide out somewhere on earth. Jesus is not hiding out in the earth currently, why would He hide out during Satan's 3.5 years of control?

I cannot make enough sense of the above to even respond to it...


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[Jamdoc]

I only see 2 visions of the end times in Revelation.

2 different perspectives of the events of tribulations -> rapture -> wrath of God -> Christ's Kingdom -> final judgement.
chapter 6-7 tribulation and rapture and start of the wrath of God, chapter 8-11 wrath of God, declaration of Christ's Kingdom, and final judgement.
chapter 13 tribulation, chapter 14 rapture and start of the wrath of God, chapter 15-18 wrath of God, chapter 19 declaration of Christ's Kingdom, chapter 20 final judgement.

I've seen the amillennialists try to chop it down into more different chronologies, claiming that chapter 18 is just another view of the same picture, but chapter 16 shows AFTER the 7th vial that Babylon comes into God's rememberance, so it is something that happens AFTER the vials Revelation 16:19. 17 is obviously an explanation as to what Babylon is and represents, and the beast. 18 is the events that happen to it.. AND there are worldly merchants mourning over the loss of Babylon, indicating there is STILL more cleanup and wrath to come. Revelation 19 REFERS to the fall of Babylon so it is Chronlolgical in order still!
The only breaks in Chronology I see, is debatably Chapter 10, sandwiched in the 3 woes, Chapter 12, which begins the 2nd vision of the same events from chapters 6-11, and Chapter 17, which is an aside to illuminate the characters of the beast and the harlot.

To chop it down further makes some things make no sense, like in Chapter 7 the angels were told not to hurt the earth until the sealing of the 144,000. Then the 7th seal is released, then come the 7 trumpets in Chapter 8. If you break it down to where chapter 6 is the end of the end right there, then you have no 7th seal and it's a nothingburger, and the angels were held back from hurting the earth and the 144,000 sealed to protect against what? Just silence?
So only way it makes sense is if the 7 trumpets ARE the wrath of God, that comes AFTER Jesus comes in the clouds after the 6th seal but before the 7th, AFTER there is a multitude in white robes in heaven and 144,000 sealed on the earth, then, after the sealing, the 7 trumpets come out and the angels hurt the earth.

So.. 6-11, is one vision. Chapter 12-19, is one vision.

You could MAYBE argue that chapter 20 is a separate vision, but seeing that the 2 other visions gave a pre wrath rapture, after the 6th seal in Chapter 6 and before the 7 trumpets, and before the 7 vials in chapter 14, and the rapture is a resurrection... and people die after that....

I can't place Chapter 20 as happening any time in the past. Because there is a 1000 year period after a resurrection, and a "the rest of the dead" that would not be resurrected until final judgement. There were 2 resurrections given, not 3.
Revelation 6 cannot be that final judgement resurrection, because people die in the wrath of God that proceeds AFTER Jesus comes in the clouds after the 6th seal, bare minimum 5 months of people dying before final judgement, AFTER Jesus has come in the clouds, because of the 7 trumpet judgements.
Jesus described that coming in the clouds as a gathering of His saints. Paul went a step further and said it was also a resurrection as well.
To see the first resurrection referred to in Revelation 20 as being the resurrection of Jesus in the past and the 1000 years is not literal, is to declare 3 resurrections. the Resurrection of Jesus in the past, the rapture resurrection in Revelation 6 and 14, and the final judgement resurrection in Revelation 20 that'd also have to take place at the end of Revelation 11. Resurrecting the wicked and then releasing the wrath to kill them again would necessitate a 2nd resurrection of the wicked for them to stand before the throne of Judgement.

So either Paul was lying about the dead in Christ rising first when Jesus comes in the clouds, because first He has to destroy everything and then resurrect EVERYONE for final judgement... or the wicked have to be resurrected twice once before the wrath and once after the wrath to stand judgement, but Hebrews 9:27 has us die once and then judgement.

OR
the first resurrection referred to in Revelation is a rapture, followed by the wrath of God, which is then followed by the second resurrection 1000 years later and final judgement.