Can you fall from being saved?

[Lynn73]

Then what do you make of this passage:

2Pet 2: 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (notice that the Bible says they really knew Him) and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[f]and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

Seriously. How do OSAS twist this Scripture passage?

Don't let men's teachings interpret Scripture for you. Let Scripture interpret itself.

Notice the sow is still a sow and the dog is still a dog. They aren't Christ's sheep and never have been. They were in contact with Christ and knew the way of righteousness. But they turned away, they were never saved.

 

[soldout]

Which species of butterflies turn themselves back into catapillars before they die?


Funny. I can't think of even one.

 

[Jim Woodell]

Notice the sow is still a sow and the dog is still a dog. They aren't Christ's sheep and never have been. They were in contact with Christ and knew the way of righteousness. But they turned away, they were never saved.

This was stated in reference to 2 Peter 2:20-22. "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: 'A dog returns to its vomit,' and , 'a sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

Peter is not talking about "dogs" and "hogs" in this text. He is talking about people that "escaped" "corruption" by "knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." The people (Christians) are "entangled" in the world again. IF they are "overcome" they are worse off than not to have known the gospel of Christ. They are lost and need to be saved (James 5:19-20;Gal. 6:1-2) The dog and the sow are used to illustrate the nature of those folks.

Check out the parable of the sower: Luke 8:11-15. The seed that did not bear fruit sprung up, it just didn't last. "They believe for awhile, but in the time of testing they fall away."

To say that people who fall away were never saved is a "cop out."

 

[Godzchild]

Why are there scriptures that contradict each other?

On one hand you have the scriptures that so "No man can pluck them out of my father's hand" and "Now unto him who is able to keep you from falling...." etc etc (there are a lot) then you have scripture like the above that totally contradict the other scriptures. Some of these scriptures were spoken by Jesus himself and yet there are scriptures that contradict what he says.

 

[Stinker]

This was stated in reference to 2 Peter 2:20-22. "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: 'A dog returns to its vomit,' and , 'a sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

Peter is not talking about "dogs" and "hogs" in this text. He is talking about people that "escaped" "corruption" by "knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." The people (Christians) are "entangled" in the world again. IF they are "overcome" they are worse off than not to have known the gospel of Christ. They are lost and need to be saved (James 5:19-20;Gal. 6:1-2) The dog and the sow are used to illustrate the nature of those folks.

Check out the parable of the sower: Luke 8:11-15. The seed that did not bear fruit sprung up, it just didn't last. "They believe for awhile, but in the time of testing they fall away."

To say that people who fall away were never saved is a "cop out."

On the word 'escaped' from (2Pet.2:20) it is important to know that this Koine Greek word is only used here in 2Pet.2:18,20 and 2Pet.1:4
It does not have the same meaning as 'escape' in other New Testament passages. As it is used in 2Pet.2 it means that even an infidel can for a while 'escape' from the defilements of the world that he and his ilk have produced, by becoming a church member. Here is what the Koine Greek word means in 2Pet.2..............(apopheugo) word #668 in Strong's Exaustive Concordance and Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the N.T. Thayer's says of this word: to flee from, escape.

Notice that it does not mean (escape to safety). In the Koine Greek New Testament where a different Greek word is used, it does mean escape to safety. (Acts 27:44) word #1295 "And the rest, some on boards, and some on broken pieces of the ship. And so it came to pass, that they all escaped all safe to land."

 

[Lynn73]

This was stated in reference to 2 Peter 2:20-22. "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: 'A dog returns to its vomit,' and , 'a sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

Peter is not talking about "dogs" and "hogs" in this text. He is talking about people that "escaped" "corruption" by "knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." The people (Christians) are "entangled" in the world again. IF they are "overcome" they are worse off than not to have known the gospel of Christ. They are lost and need to be saved (James 5:19-20;Gal. 6:1-2) The dog and the sow are used to illustrate the nature of those folks.

Check out the parable of the sower: Luke 8:11-15. The seed that did not bear fruit sprung up, it just didn't last. "They believe for awhile, but in the time of testing they fall away."

To say that people who fall away were never saved is a "cop out."

Difference of opinion. I choose to believe these are not truly saved people. Is God contradicting Himself? The Bible says no one can snatch us out of His hand and that Christ will lose nothing that belongs to Him. There are too many Scriptures that say that you can't lose salvation so unless God is contradicting Himself, one side is misinterpeting the Scripture. And each side probably thinks it's the other side so round and round we go and get nowhere.

If the dog is still a dog and the sow still a sow what is shows is that their nature was never changed. They didn't experience the new birth nor receive the new nature.

 

[SoulFly51]

I don't think God is contradicting Himself at all - I believe other people are contradicting God.

 

[ronmathison]

Whoever eats this bread will live forever.

 

[ronmathison]

This was stated in reference to 2 Peter 2:20-22. "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command

The above means people who are not Christians, who
know of the way to God, and then reject it. I feel that
this is mirrored in scripture, where we see teachers, who
for greed, willfully teach lies, and willfully send people to hell.

Those people, will never accept Christ. Those people will also
go to a worse place in hell than the average Joe. This is because of how evil
their choice is.

True Christians are indeed saved forever.

 

[GTchick12]

If you are truly saved, you will not reject Christ. Why would someone who no longer wanted a part of Christ even want to go to heaven?

 

[Jim Woodell]

Why are there scriptures that contradict each other?

On one hand you have the scriptures that so "No man can pluck them out of my father's hand" and "Now unto him who is able to keep you from falling...." etc etc (there are a lot) then you have scripture like the above that totally contradict the other scriptures. Some of these scriptures were spoken by Jesus himself and yet there are scriptures that contradict what he says.

Note that the Father/Shepherd did not cause the "lost sheep" (Luke 15) to be lost, nor did he invite the "prodigal son" to leave home. It was through their carelessness or choice that they left security and went into lostness.

There is no contradiction here. "No man can pluck them out of my Father's hand...", but every Christian has the choice of staying or leaving (John 6:66-69). You can choose to jump out of the Father's hand. Unfortunately many have (Matt. 7:13-14).

 

[Godzchild]

Note that the Father/Shepherd did not cause the "lost sheep" (Luke 15) to be lost, nor did he invite the "prodigal son" to leave home. It was through their carelessness or choice that they left security and went into lostness.

There is no contradiction here. "No man can pluck them out of my Father's hand...", but every Christian has the choice of staying or leaving (John 6:66-69). You can choose to jump out of the Father's hand. Unfortunately many have (Matt. 7:13-14).

But see these things are contradictory. It says that NO MAN can pluck them out of my father's hand and I feel that means 'us' as well since we are 'man' right? Also if it says that he will keep us from falling then the prodigal son and the 'sheep' that walk away do NOT fall away but they do come back though. what makes them come back? What makes a Christian who walks away come back?

 

[James1979]

I agree with the rest that once a person is sealed by the Holy Spirit, the seal can never be broken because God has his promises and God keeps his promises. God will not contradict himself as some people say thus saith the Lord and the Lord has not said it.

If people had loss their salvation, Christ would had endure extra payment for these dear indiviuals for nothing because supposely they were saved but falled from grace and now are eternally condemned. That would mean these people had frustrated God's salvation plan.

It's all contrary and God says it himself in the bible that men are liars and let God be true. Once saved, always saved.

 

[Apologetic]

I agree with the rest that once a person is sealed by the Holy Spirit, the seal can never be broken because God has his promises and God keeps his promises. God will not contradict himself as some people say thus saith the Lord and the Lord has not said it.

If people had loss their salvation, Christ would had endure extra payment for these dear indiviuals for nothing because supposely they were saved but falled from grace and now are eternally condemned. That would mean these people had frustrated God's salvation plan.

It's all contrary and God says it himself in the bible that men are liars and let God be true. Once saved, always saved.

Saying that one can fall away from being a Christian has nothing with accusing God of not being true! The Bible says that every person who acknowledges the truthfulness of Jesus Christ as God and (perfect) Man, only Savior and Redeemer, has acknowledged the truthfulness of God and is therefore justified by faith.

Your logic concerning the suffering of Christ is refuted by the Bible. The Bible does not say that Jesus only suffered for those who would accept Him, but for every person in the world. Besides Christ's suffering is over. No one can add to it or take away from it. The major suffering for Christ was NOT the physical suffering, but being seperated from His Father, by being held responsible for all sins ever done and to be done.

Have people even read the links I gave? The Bible is CLEAR that it is possible to fall away from the faith. It even gives examples! So what are you gonna say then? That they weren't really converted? Well, the Bible doesn't pass such a judgement on them, but a much worse one - having known Christ and then deliberately turning away from Him again causes the person to receive a much worse judgement than they would get had they never known Christ.

Listen, Christianity has been asleep, and more and more are falling into slumber. Extra-biblical (that means not found in the Bible) doctrines such as OSAS, does NOT help people stay awake! Why do people have such a hard time trusting the Lord without Him saying - "now you can do whatever you want! as long as you accepted Jesus once, it doesn't matter what you do from now on! Let grace become an excuse for sin - doesn't matter - just sin along. Fruits of the Spirit? Nah - not needed. Staying in Christ? Not needed either!! What do you mean the warnings I gave you in the Bible? Oh - right... no don't worry about them, or false teachers seducing you, or false prophets ruining your faith..."

Can't you see that the OSAS-doctrine is completely contrary to God's Word, to His holiness?

What do you make of chapters like Matthew 24 and Luke 13, which are - in essence - just HUGE warnings from Jesus to STAY ALERT and not fall into slumber, sleeping on a pillow false safety? If you're still in Christ when you die, you can shout for joy and THEN you are saved forever - but here - in this age of darkness, we are fighting to keep the faith by which we are justified in God's eyes.

By grace we are saved - through faith! If you turn from your faith in Jesus, you turn your back on the justification by grace through faith as well!
Is this really so hard to understand, or is it just too costy to accept?

Now to you who says that "no one can pluck me from My Father's hand" contradicts 1Tim4: 1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Yes, it may seem like a contradiction, just like many other things in the Bible, but let me tell you all something:

SCRIPTURE INTEPRETS SCRIPTURE

That's why you need to look at more before saying these things. It's clear, from the rest of the Bible, that those who are in the hand of the Father, are those who are taking refuge in Christ from the curse of sin! These words are meant to comfort those who strive and are weary with lack of assurance of salvation so they can rest in God's word - confident of His care and love, and not to be some sleeping pillow for Christians living in sin!

Don't read the Bible with spectacles given to you by preachers who say this and say that, but let your reading spectacles be the cross of Christ and let Scripture interpret Scripture.

And don't be too hasty in taking comfort in doctrines before you've at least read one of the gospels to see if it contradicts Scripture.

 

[Lynn73]

Can't you see that the OSAS-doctrine is completely contrary to God's Word, to His holiness?

No, some of us see just the opposite. Otherwise we wouldn't believe OSAS.

Now to you who says that "no one can pluck me from My Father's hand" contradicts 1Tim4: 1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

1Jo 2:19

- Show Context They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Obviously it's all a matter of rightly dividing the word of truth since we know God doesn't contradict Himself. So regardless of whichever side any of us think is doing the misinterpreting, one side is wrong.


The Bible says that we can know we're saved. So if OSnAS is true, how could we ever know that? Are we made aware when we became unsaved again? Can we be saved and lost over and over again? Does that really make any sense. There are just too many questions for that scenario. I remain OSAS. As I'm sure the OSnOS will remain the same.

 

[Godzchild]

"Now unto him who is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING and present you faultless before the presence of his glory in exceeding joy".

 

[Apologetic]

How am I able to know? By trusting the Lord to be truthful! That's what it's all about! For we are saved by grace through faith, and it is not of yourselves.

Faith in the Lord is a gift which we receive by hearing the Word! This faith is needed for salvation, because it is the very trust in the Lord by which we receive forgiveness for our sins.

By saying that OSAS is true, you deny over 50 warnings in the NT alone that a Christian must be on his guard or else he may fall away from the truth.

 

[deep_thought_generator]

read the parable of the sower...
this parable describes the many different things that can happen to a person after hearing the word of God.

i do not believe that a person can "lose" their salvation. i do, however, believe that a person can "give up" their salvation. it is a gift of grace...you cant earn it. noone will take a gift they have given you away from you...but you can give it away to someone else if you decide you dont like it. (or sell it even...hence "selling your soul to the devil") for instance...suicide would be a form of giving up your salvation. denying Jesus is an unforgivable sin that will earn you hell...period.

if a person is saved i can only think of two ways that he can give his salvation up. one is by committing suicide...the other is by just turning completely away and never coming back. people that are saved and turn away (i.e. myself) almost always return because of something inside of them that keeps drawing them back (i.e. myself). i do believe that once you are saved...everything after that will only determine the reward that you will recieve in heaven.

the reason i believe that suicide is giving up your salvation is because by commiting suicide you are saying that you choose to no longer run the good race of faith. you no longer desire to put up with this world...youve given up. you will no longer allow Jesus to work in your life. but remember giving your life and taking your life are different things. Jesus gave his life...(as well as other people) but people who commit suicide "take" a life...even though it is their own...it does not belong to them.

so...no...you cant lose your salvation...but you can give it away.

 

[Stinker]

I want to ask 2 questions. People on this thread advocating what is referred to by some as the 'Doctrine of Insecurity'.....do you claim to be saved? In other words, if you were to suddenly die within this minute, do you know that you will go to heaven?

When I was in my former church we always thought the 'Once Saved Always Saved' doctrine was fair game. We were taught that one just wouldn't know for sure if they would make it through those heavenly gates till their turn at Judgement was over. This is actually a terrifying thought that Jesus did not want on our minds the moment we realize our time here on earth is over.....but Satan most certainly does.

 

[Apologetic]

I want to ask 2 questions. People on this thread advocating what is referred to by some as the 'Doctrine of Insecurity'.....do you claim to be saved? In other words, if you were to suddenly die within this minute, do you know that you will go to heaven?

It is not a doctrine of insecurity! It's about staying united with Christ! How can you even try to think that there is any salvation outside Christ? Yet this is what you're saying when you teach people don't need to stay in Christ to get to heaven.

Yes, I know that if I die this very second that I will go to heaven, because I have the Son, and he who has the Son, has life.

When I was in my former church we always thought the 'Once Saved Always Saved' doctrine was fair game. We were taught that one just wouldn't know for sure if they would make it through those heavenly gates till their turn at Judgement was over. This is actually a terrifying thought that Jesus did not want on our minds the moment we realize our time here on earth is over.....but Satan most certainly does.

It doesn't matter if people think it's a fair game. Many people think it's much more comfortable to think that there is no literal hell as well, that people just get annihilated when they die if not saved. That something is comfortable doesn't mean it's right.