Can you fall from being saved?

[ReformedChapin]

Excellent point.

I agree with you that this is not an overnight process. It is something that happens so gradually that it is almost always imperceptible until it has become a serious problem.

It's just like a lamb wandering away from its shepherd. It doesn't get lost quickly, but one step at a time it slowly wanders away from the flock...

Wrong scripture makes it more than clear...

A lamb with true faith, will always come back to the sheppard. God will not let one get lost.

9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 9:15 For he says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 29 9:16 So then, 30 it does not depend on human desire or exertion, 31 but on God who shows mercy. 9:17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh: 32 “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may demonstrate my power in you, and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” 33 9:18 So then, 34 God 35 has mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy, and he hardens whom he chooses to harden. 36

Salvation does not depend on mans will but on God's grace alone. That's why scripture says that salvation is not of us but God.

9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who has ever resisted his will?” 9:20 But who indeed are you – a mere human being 37 – to talk back to God?

38
Paul makes it more than clear that even through our bondage of our will through God's will we are still sinful and God can do with us as he pleases. He is more than blunt. And we have no right to blame him for his sovereign predestination for the reprobate for destruction.

Does what is molded say to the molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 39 9:21 Has the potter no right to make from the same lump of clay 40 one vessel for special use and another for ordinary use? 41 9:22 But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects 42 of wrath 43 prepared for destruction?

God can demonstrate his power or grace to whomever he should like. Even in bondage, the Potter (God) can do as he pleases with us.

 

[ReformedChapin]

I noticed in som other thread, an argument/thesis brought up, apparently penned by Luther.

It goes something like "I can murder 1000 times a day and still be saved."
So, true or false? It comes down to how we're saved to begin with; if it's by grace only, the answer is "true". If it's not only of grace, the answer would be "no", correct?

False notion, if we are saved because God saved us a new nature that implies that our works will coincide with God's will. If our works don't coincide that implies we HAVEN'T been regenerated therefore not saved. God doesn't do 1/2 the job, he completes it all the way.

 

[aggie03]

False notion, if we are saved because God saved us a new nature that implies that our works will coincide with God's will. If our works don't coincide that implies we HAVEN'T been regenerated therefore not saved. God doesn't do 1/2 the job, he completes it all the way.

So if God "does it all the way", please explain why Christians still sin. To me, it seems better suited to say that you position is the false thesis.

 

[ReformedChapin]

So if God "does it all the way", please explain why Christians still sin. To me, it seems better suited to say that you position is the false thesis.

What I mean by all the way, I meant about salvation and regeneration...we still aren't perfected. Our transfiguration will occur in Christs return. He still completes 100 percent of the job.

 

[aggie03]

What I mean by all the way, I meant about salvation and regeneration...we still aren't perfected. Our transfiguration will occur in Christs return. He still completes 100 percent of the job.

This is why I have some issues with the Calvinistic view of Scriptures - it just doesn't add up, in my opinion, with what the Bible teaches.

For instance, if you agree to the idea of unconditional election, then there are, literally, no conditions that must be met before someone is saved. It doesn't matter if they commit a 1000 murders a day - that's not one of the stipulations of salvation.

If at any given moment I am saved, unconditionally, then at no moment after that can I loose my salvation. There are no conditions that I must keep or strive toward. The minute that we start to talk about people who are "really saved", you have started to place conditions on salvation, which I think is what the Bible teaches.

If there are conditions that are placed on salvation, then it is entirely possible for us to violate the terms of the covenant that we make with God upon becoming a Christian. Hence, it is possible for one to leave God, or wander from the fold.

 

[desmalia]

This is why I have some issues with the Calvinistic view of Scriptures - it just doesn't add up, in my opinion, with what the Bible teaches.

Then I encourage you to study Calvinism a little more closely. It is Scriptural.

For instance, if you agree to the idea of unconditional election, then there are, literally, no conditions that must be met before someone is saved.

Of course. Salvation is a toally undeserved gift. It is not based on our good works. It is God who moves the heart to respond to Him, not us. I don't deserve salvation any more or less than the Atheist down the road. It is His work in me that has brought me to Him. He didn't choose me because he knew I would choose Him. That would still equate to salvation being of my own work.

It doesn't matter if they commit a 1000 murders a day - that's not one of the stipulations of salvation.

Now this quote was initially a response to the whole concept of works based salvation. And it's correct in that aspect. However I think it's been totally blown out of proportion in this thread. How many Christians do such a thing? NONE. Why? Because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is not just God saying "I pick you" and then abandoning us to live life alone on our own wisdom. He is in us, guiding us, sanctifying us. Justification and sanctification co-exist. You cannot have one without the other. Ever.

If at any given moment I am saved, unconditionally, then at no moment after that can I loose my salvation.

Correct. We don't have the power to save ourselves any more than we have the power to remove ourselves from God's hand.

There are no conditions that I must keep or strive toward. The minute that we start to talk about people who are "really saved", you have started to place conditions on salvation, which I think is what the Bible teaches.

Are you talking about fruits of the Spirit here? Because yes, a true believer does begin to strive to serve and glorify God. Our eyes are opened to the magesty that He is! And the indwelling of the Spirit leads us to seek His glory in our lives. That is a part of salvation. It's not just a key to heaven after we die. We become members of the Kingdom here and now, and that overflows in our lives. How can it not?

If there are conditions that are placed on salvation, then it is entirely possible for us to violate the terms of the covenant that we make with God upon becoming a Christian. Hence, it is possible for one to leave God, or wander from the fold.

See but striving to obey God isn't a condition. It's a reaction. Huge, huge difference. Salvation is not conditional. It is a gift. Part of that gift is our regeneration.

 

[ReformedChapin]

This is why I have some issues with the Calvinistic view of Scriptures - it just doesn't add up, in my opinion, with what the Bible teaches.
For instance, if you agree to the idea of unconditional election, then there are, literally, no conditions that must be met before someone is saved. It doesn't matter if they commit a 1000 murders a day - that's not one of the stipulations of salvation.

Yep, because what we do doesn't matter. Look at Paul, he kiled God's very own people and God made him his own Apostle.

If at any given moment I am saved, unconditionally, then at no moment after that can I loose my salvation. There are no conditions that I must keep or strive toward. The minute that we start to talk about people who are "really saved", you have started to place conditions on salvation, which I think is what the Bible teaches.

God changes your nature so you strive to persue him. Remember he is in control of every action. You still think you are in control of what you do? Nope. God choose you so you can chase after him and love him! He renewed your mind!

If there are conditions that are placed on salvation, then it is entirely possible for us to violate the terms of the covenant that we make with God upon becoming a Christian. Hence, it is possible for one to leave God, or wander from the fold.

If you are speaking of LAW, remember no matter what you will always sin. You live in a sinful place and no matter how much you try not do it you will. Paul states this in Romans, "the things I dont want to do I do, and the things I do wanna do I dont do." But as regenerated believer you will always chase after God, he will be your motive for living "loving him with heart, soul and mind!"

 

[holo]

False notion, if we are saved because God saved us a new nature that implies that our works will coincide with God's will. If our works don't coincide that implies we HAVEN'T been regenerated therefore not saved. God doesn't do 1/2 the job, he completes it all the way.

The prodigal son was still 100% his father's son, even though/when he acted like a pig and though his dad would accept him as a servant, at best. He just didn't know who he really was

 

[DArceri]

Why is salvation an undeserved gift. We are born in sin, we live in sin and some day most will die in sin. It was god's choosing not ours.

God chose to curse creation when Adam CHOSE Satan as his lord. Those who do not have Christ as there Lord is separated from His Holiness and still have Satan as there father. Salvation is called a free gift for those who recieve Christ as both Lord and Savior because He didn't have to save us. He didn't have to die for our souls, but He did suffer for us out of pure LOVE for 'HIS SHEEP', and I say sheep because there are many who will deny Him til the day they die.

 

[ANM29]

No, you can't fall from being saved..Impossible.....Not of works at all...But Grace......You can't fall from under the Grace of God...

 

[ANM29]

If anybody thinks you can lose your salvation, it is because they don't understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ... but most don't as much as they talk about it and quote scriptures...They think it is about 'works' and our fleshy attempts to get God's approval and attention. ..When you are already approved by GRACE...............alone!

 

[DArceri]

If anybody thinks you can lose your salvation, it is because they don't understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ... but most don't as much as they talk about it and quote scriptures...They think it is about 'works' and our fleshy attempts to get God's approval and attention. ..When you are already approved by GRACE...............alone!

If God AWAKENS YOU and makes you spiritually alive, you will never become spiritually dead. AMEN

 

[ANM29]

If God AWAKENS YOU and makes you spiritually alive, you will never become spiritually dead. AMEN

You are preaching now...

 

[ANM29]

I think as we mature, spiritually, God leads us to a deeper understand but when He thinks we are able to handle it.

 

[Free04]

No, cause you need some scripture and HOLY SPIRIT revelation on this one. I don't plan to try to convince you or any other.....

If you seek God, in his time, he himself will reveal..

I don't plan to debate the topic at all.

I understand, I was just curious as to how you formed your theology of this doctrine and what scripture you based it on. I believe that personal revelation is a very important part of a systematic theology, but I don't believe that the Word of God is subjective.
I also believe that God is JUST.
In Him.

 

[ANM29]

I understand, I was just curious as to how you formed your theology of this doctrine and what scripture you based it on. I believe that personal revelation is a very important part of a systematic theology, but I don't believe that the Word of God is subjective.
I also believe that God is JUST.
In Him.

The real interesting thing is that I was never looking for this, God revealed it to me...He had been preparing me for it when I look back..I had been seeking him cos I wanted more of him, not knowing he was going to give me many things plus some.....

It is one of those things that only he can reveal, and when he does..Trust me, you can never go back to anything else..He will make sure that you know it is him, and you will know it to be true..regardless of what you previously believed..

It is just not something you can debate,..you either get it, or you don't... He truly loves the world..and died for it....

 

[desmalia]

People who claim to be followers of Christ but who are not believers? Yes, Scripture is quite plain on this.

Matthew 7 (NASB):
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

 

[Cris413]

thread Closed​