Can you fall from being saved?

Godzchild · Aug 5, 2005

Agreed. But the Christian has to respond to God's leading grace (Titus 2:11-14). We can "quench" the Spirit of God (1 Thess 5:19-22) by treating prophecies with contempt. This is a

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choice we make

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A Sheep knows his shepherd's voice and he follows Him. The Lord's sheep will always follow his shepherd or they were never the Lord's sheep.

You have misunderstood the intent of my post. I have never passed judgement on you. We are discussing what the Bible teaches, hopefully in an objective way, not "finger pointing." Whatever path you are anyone else has been on, our God is a forgiving God. Everyone needs God's grace equally (Rom. 3:23;6:23). Scripture declares that we were "dead in sin," depraved, disobedient, and doomed when God made us alive in Christ.

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I didn't say you in particular judged me. But it's easy to come across that way on a forum such as this. You say that we are dead in sin and disobedient...why then do we obey? What...or should it be 'who' gives us the desire to obey?

Please read 1 Cor. 11:31 that states, "But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment." When we examine ourselves, change our ways to conform to God's ways, we escape the sure consequences that come from sin. In the very next verse (1 Cor. 11:32) it says, "When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world." BUT, what if, a person does not respond to the discipline of the Lord?? The implication is that they will be condemned with the world.

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We cannot change our ways to conform to God's ways. IF we could then we wouldn't need a saviour. The Lord does not JUDGE us rather he chastens us like any loving parent would. I asked you how, when I walked away, did I come back?...simple...the Lord chastened me, he did not judge, he did not knock me over the head, he did not make me feel bad...he merely brought what I needed to know to my attention then HE dealt with it and allowed his Grace to cover my sin. I DID NOTHING ON MY OWN!!!

What better person to talk about God's grace than someone who's had to rely on it?

Godzchild · Aug 5, 2005

Joyinhim - have you ever considered, rather than looking at what other Christians are doing, maybe take care of your own walk with God? It sounds to me, and I could be reading too much into it, so I could be wrong (forgive me if I am), that you seem to be so busy looking at what other Christians are doing and shaking your head with disapproval...and not keeping your eyes on Jesus.

Very easy to do, admittedly, I do it myself sometimes. It only serves to tie me up in knots and to feel saddened for everyone when I have no idea what they are actually doing, what purpose they serve in God's church and where they have been. You would be amazed at how many people can be reached through the very people you look down on. If only you knew!!!

I was one such person

Jim Woodell · Aug 5, 2005

Godzchild said:
A Sheep knows his shepherd's voice and he follows Him. The Lord's sheep will always follow his shepherd or they were never the Lord's sheep.

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Please explain the parable of the "lost sheep." Luke 15:1ff It was a sheep but lost. It was "dead" but made "alive." What does that mean?

I didn't say you in particular judged me. But it's easy to come across that way on a forum such as this. You say that we are dead in sin and disobedient...why then do we obey? What...or should it be 'who' gives us the desire to obey?

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If you will read Eph. 2 you will see that "dead in sin" was not something I said, it was something God said through Paul. Read the text and you will see that God made "us" (me too!) (and YOU) "alive in Christ." Just as he gave life to Adam in the beginning, He gives spiritual life to us. It is a "gift" of his grace (Eph. 2:8-9), but it is not over there. Vs. 10 points out that we are an ongoing work of God and that we are "created in Christ Jesus to do good works." BUT I can choose to walk away. So can you.

God gives us the "prompting" to obey, BUT we can "resist" the Spirit of God (Acts 7:51-53), "grieve" the Holy Spirit (Eph. 4:30), and "put out the Spirit's fire" (1 Thess. 5:19-22). Romans 8:5-17 also addresses the need to surrender to the Spirit of God, however, it is clear to me, that we are not so overwhelmed by the Spirit of God that our own will cannot "over-rule" God's will, if we so choose.

We cannot change our ways to conform to God's ways. IF we could then we wouldn't need a saviour. The Lord does not JUDGE us rather he chastens us like any loving parent would. I asked you how, when I walked away, did I come back?...simple...the Lord chastened me, he did not judge, he did not knock me over the head, he did not make me feel bad...he merely brought what I needed to know to my attention then HE dealt with it and allowed his Grace to cover my sin. I DID NOTHING ON MY OWN!!!
What better person to talk about God's grace than someone who's had to rely on it?

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Your first sentence in this paragraph contradicts what the Bible teaches:

"With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, 'Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." (Acts 2:40)

"As you have always obeyed - not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence - continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling." (Phil. 2:12)

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say 'No' to ungodlines and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope - the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ..." (Titus 2:11-13) We have a choice to say, "No," or "Yes" to temptations that come. God provides the way of escape but we must choose to follow His lead or we will be a "lost sheep."

Godzchild · Aug 5, 2005

Please explain the parable of the "lost sheep." Luke 15:1ff It was a sheep but lost. It was "dead" but made "alive." What does that mean?

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When a sheep is lost then he goes and finds them and brings them back. I am testimony of that. I was dead but was made alive but I was always his sheep and he was always going to come for me and bring me back to the fold therefore my salvation was always secure. It's predestined.

If you will read Eph. 2 you will see that "dead in sin" was not something I said, it was something God said through Paul. Read the text and you will see that God made "us" (me too!) (and YOU) "alive in Christ." Just as he gave life to Adam in the beginning, He gives spiritual life to us. It is a "gift" of his grace (Eph. 2:8-9), but it is not over there. Vs. 10 points out that we are an ongoing work of God and that we are "created in Christ Jesus to do good works." BUT I can choose to walk away. So can you.

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I am dead to sin. The bible says to consider ourselves dead to sin. I know all that. I can choose to walk away - sure but if I'm truly God'schild then I WILL come back...why? Why do I come back? You haven't answered me that yet. Why did the prodigal son come back? Why did I have the desire to come back to the flock when Jesus came looking for me?

[quoteGod gives us the "prompting" to obey, BUT we can "resist" the Spirit of God (Acts 7:51-53), "grieve" the Holy Spirit (Eph. 4:30), and "put out the Spirit's fire" (1 Thess. 5:19-22). Romans 8:5-17 also addresses the need to surrender to the Spirit of God, however, it is clear to me, that we are not so overwhelmed by the Spirit of God that our own will cannot "over-rule" God's will, if we so choose.[/quote]

If we are a child of God our 'over ruling' or 'resisting' is short term because we will always come back to the father. Why? Can't you see? God keeps us from falling - its as simple as that!!!

Your first sentence in this paragraph contradicts what the Bible teaches:

"With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, 'Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." (Acts 2:40)

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Sorry but Jesus is my Saviour. I cannot save myself so that scripture cannot mean what you say it means or I wouldn't need Christ.

"As you have always obeyed - not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence - continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling." (Phil. 2:12)

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I have already workd out my salvation the day I gave my life to the Lord. It's not my life! It's not I that lives but Christ who lives in me.

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say 'No' to ungodlines and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope - the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ..." (Titus 2:11-13) We have a choice to say, "No," or "Yes" to temptations that come. God provides the way of escape but we must choose to follow His lead or we will be a "lost sheep."

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And if we become lost sheep? I have been a lost sheep...what happened? Christ came looking for me and he did not give up until he found me. Why did I come back? Why did the prodigal son return?

Read up and find out where that prodigal son was and what made him return. Find out why he didn't just stay where he was.

You seem to want to ignore certain scriptures about God keeping us from falling. you seem to want to ignore the scriptures about predesination.

If God is all knowing and all powerful and he knows that I would walk away and NEVER return then he would never have given me eternal life to begin with. But he gave me eternal life - this is my assurance. I will never walk too far away to not come back because I am God's child. I am his sheep.

It was all predestined and planned before the foundations of the world. He knew I would turn back to him which is why he came looking for me. If I was to turn away and not come back then I would not be his sheep or his child, but God knew I would come back, so he sealed me with his Holy Spirit of promise and made me his own. He did NOT...I repeat DID NOT make a mistake with that.

I am a born again child of God and I will forever be his child. I will always be drawn to the father through the spirit. I will always come back. It is my destiny! I have eternal life! Eternal life is eternal...that's why it's called eternal life.

joyinhim · Aug 5, 2005

Godzchild said:
Joyinhim - have you ever considered, rather than looking at what other Christians are doing, maybe take care of your own walk with God? It sounds to me, and I could be reading too much into it, so I could be wrong (forgive me if I am), that you seem to be so busy looking at what other Christians are doing and shaking your head with disapproval...and not keeping your eyes on Jesus.

Very easy to do, admittedly, I do it myself sometimes. It only serves to tie me up in knots and to feel saddened for everyone when I have no idea what they are actually doing, what purpose they serve in God's church and where they have been. You would be amazed at how many people can be reached through the very people you look down on. If only you knew!!!

I was one such person

Yes, very closely every day. God never help us if we criticize anyone without taking out our own plank.

Yes, it is not eazy to be in the other side of the main stream. We Will be persecuted it we wholeheartedly commted to Him. That's Jesus' comments. But I keep on speaking up to protect His teaching.

You sound like one of the pastors wives I've talked to, are you?

holo · Aug 5, 2005

joyinhim said:
holo, what makes you think you are radical? Trust me your kind of Christianity is very popular especially among young Christians. Why do you think you have so much admirers?

I think you're mistaking my views for a view where sin doesn't even matter, or that God's demands aren't absolute. But it's far from that. But I can understand it's hard to see the difference, I've taken a long time to become secure in God's grace.

My point isn't that everything is ok, but that everything is forgiven.
Not that our behaviour doesn't matter, but it doesn't affect us being children of God.

Grace + anything is no longer grace. It is my view that it is ALL grace, from beginning to end, from top to bottom, from faith to faith.

It's not a license to sin, it's a license to be free, to be clean. It's about seeing that God has actually declared you righteous already and that there's nothing left to do. Which means we are free to live in his grace, in his love. It means you can serve him out of love and thankfulness, not fear. I often see a lot more fear in christianity than there should be. A lot of people I've met see God first and foremost as a judge. I see him more as saviour. I see God as my dad, not my employer. He's not some distant, almost unpersonal force that is constantly looking for sins and weighing us out to see if we just might make it into heaven. I think he's quite the opposite.

And I've seen it in myself, and in the lives of others too, that the more people realize that IT IS FINISHED, the better people they become. Our love grows, bad habits dissapear like vaporising water, fear is driven out. And the more we love, the more of this love we want. The more we see how good Jesus is, the better we see our own rottenness, but never in a condemning manner. The Spirit never makes you feel bad and guilty. He/she is gentle, working from the inside out, from the heart.

I've lived and breathed a christianity that tried to change people from the outside, through laws (both "biblical" and man-made), norms, culture, pressure, theology and morality.

Morality can kiss my butt. Love is better. The word "morality" becomes pointless when God's grace has made me love the man who raped my sister. The ten commandments can go home, I live according to a much higher standard. I'll pick up other people's garbage and throw it in the bin because I love people. I'll sing while I wipe disbled people's rear ends.

I could never do that when I was a legalist. By legalism I mean anything, anything at all that says (explicitly or indirectly) that what Jesus did is not enough.

It is finished, the veil has been torn, the price has been paid, the blood has been shed, His anger is quenched, the demands have been met, the devil is defeated, redemtion has come.

Neither salvation nor justification has anything to do with what you do, but who you are. You ARE a child of God. That's your identity. It's not something you earn or live up to.

I PROMISE YOU, when people start realizing and living this, the last thing on their minds will be using grace as an excuse for sin. Love conquers all.

womanofgodwcci · Aug 5, 2005

holo said:
I think you're mistaking my views for a view where sin doesn't even matter, or that God's demands aren't absolute. But it's far from that. But I can understand it's hard to see the difference, I've taken a long time to become secure in God's grace.

My point isn't that everything is ok, but that everything is forgiven.
Not that our behaviour doesn't matter, but it doesn't affect us being children of God.

Grace + anything is no longer grace. It is my view that it is ALL grace, from beginning to end, from top to bottom, from faith to faith.

It's not a license to sin, it's a license to be free, to be clean. It's about seeing that God has actually declared you righteous already and that there's nothing left to do. Which means we are free to live in his grace, in his love. It means you can serve him out of love and thankfulness, not fear. I often see a lot more fear in christianity than there should be. A lot of people I've met see God first and foremost as a judge. I see him more as saviour. I see God as my dad, not my employer. He's not some distant, almost unpersonal force that is constantly looking for sins and weighing us out to see if we just might make it into heaven. I think he's quite the opposite.

And I've seen it in myself, and in the lives of others too, that the more people realize that IT IS FINISHED, the better people they become. Our love grows, bad habits dissapear like vaporising water, fear is driven out. And the more we love, the more of this love we want. The more we see how good Jesus is, the better we see our own rottenness, but never in a condemning manner. The Spirit never makes you feel bad and guilty. He/she is gentle, working from the inside out, from the heart.

I've lived and breathed a christianity that tried to change people from the outside, through laws (both "biblical" and man-made), norms, culture, pressure, theology and morality.

Morality can kiss my butt. Love is better. The word "morality" becomes pointless when God's grace has made me love the man who raped my sister. The ten commandments can go home, I live according to a much higher standard. I'll pick up other people's garbage and throw it in the bin because I love people. I'll sing while I wipe disbled people's rear ends.

I could never do that when I was a legalist. By legalism I mean anything, anything at all that says (explicitly or indirectly) that what Jesus did is not enough.

It is finished, the veil has been torn, the price has been paid, the blood has been shed, His anger is quenched, the demands have been met, the devil is defeated, redemtion has come.

Neither salvation nor justification has anything to do with what you do, but who you are. You ARE a child of God. That's your identity. It's not something you earn or live up to.

I PROMISE YOU, when people start realizing and living this, the last thing on their minds will be using grace as an excuse for sin. Love conquers all.

AND WOMAN OF GOD SAID "PRAISALUJAH!!"

rosiecotton · Aug 5, 2005

joyinhim said:
holo, what makes you think you are radical? Trust me your kind of Christianity is very popular especially among young Christians. Why do you think you have so much admirers? I live in America. I am just sad about this country's materialistic mantality. I have never supported by many people. Have you noticed just about every one in this forum is against me? I don't believe majority of this country's christians are seriouse about being a servant for the Lord. They just want to feel good about being Christians. I feel sad for them. I want them to know true blessing comes from being obidient to Him.
I gave my life to Him and so did my family. Did you read about my daughter being former drug adict, smoker and adulterous? Now she has been witnessing to young Christians about importance of being obedient to Him. She also witnesses to all kinds of non-believers all around her. My three kids are my greatest blessing God ever gave me.They became commited Christians after I became one.I am very passionate about witnessing to Young or new Christians. I want them to know the true blessing. We can never have true joy and peace unless we are totally commited to Him. I am passionate to talk to young people because they are much open than older ones.

love, joyinhim

I don't believe everyone on this forum is 'against' you. Just because we many not agree with you doesn't mean we are against you. We are merely trying to get you to understand our point of view.
I have seen many threads on here in which you have questioned other peoples (especially holo's) Christianity and walk with God, when you have absolutely NO IDEA what their life is like. You do not know things they have been through and struggled with, how God has worked in their lives, how God has blessed them and how God is using them. Since you know absolutely nothing about their walk with God, you can't judge their walk with God.
There was a time in my life I was away from God. I did the things I wanted, and lived my life how I wanted--basically ignoring God the whole time. Thankfully, He drew me back to Him. It was then that I understood grace and what it meant to have a real relationship with God. I also understood what it meant to die to myself and realize my life is not about me, but about Him. I want to live a life of obedience to Him and am always seeking Him and His will in decisions I have to make. If something is not pleasing to Him, then I don't want to do it.
You keep referring to the 'popular' kind of Christianity and I'm assuming you mean the 'feel good' kind. Just because we talk about grace instead of living by the law does not mean it's a feel good kind of Christianity. It doesn't always feel good to have to remind myself "it's not about me!" and die to the desires I may have. To put aside things I may want when I know it's not what God wants me to have. Just because we say we are not 'under the law' doesn't mean we just live our lives as *we* please and don't care if we hurt others. If we're under grace, we're going to offer grace to others and love them and treat them as Jesus would have us treat them.
I cannot tell you all the ways that God has blessed me. He has blessed me tremendously in my life, especially in the past 4 1/2 years since He drew me back to Him. He has drawn my husband closer to Him, has changed our marriage for the better, drew my mom back to Him, given me a job I love, blessed me with great friends and many many other blessings. Thing is, I don't live my life in obedience just so I can be blessed by Him. I am obedient to Him because I love Him. Because He has shown me so much grace, how can I not be obedient to Him? I want to please Him with my life, because I love Him, not just so He'll bless me. Sure, blessings are great, but I live my life the way I do because I love Him.
You say the majority of Christians aren't serious about being servants for the Lord. I know many many Christians who are true servants and are truly committed to Him. I also know some who aren't. Thing is, we can't be responsible for everyone elses relationships with God. Sure, if we have a friend or family member who we see that is clearly living in sin and disobedience to God, we can confront them with it. But, ultimately they are responsible for their own lives and how their relationship with God is. We need to let God deal with them. Many times, if *we* try to get them to change, we get in God's way of changing them. (and believe me, He's a LOT better at changing people than we are!)
If you would quit looking at everyone with a judgmental eye (and yeah, I know, you say we all judge one another) maybe you will see more of the good out there that many Christians ARE doing. I honestly try not to judge another's walk with God, because we are all different and have different walks with God and I don't know how God is working in that person's life.
I know you probably 'lump' me in with all the others that you say just have a 'feel good' Christianity. But I will not apologize for the kind of relationship I have with God. I lived most of my life going to church, thinking I was a 'good' Christian. But, now I have that real relationship with God.
I know I belong to Him and I am totally committed to Him.

holo · Aug 5, 2005

I'm not very good at debates and arguments.

I just wish you all could see my life and how it's changed. I used to do my very best to be "a good christian" but I could never ever make it. Sometimes I did good for a week, and that would give me a platform from which to judge others who didn't live up to my standards (a very common thing, isn't it). The next week I would fail, give in, fall, stumble, and regard my self as a low-life loser. Honestly, I think those are the only two options when you live according to law.

But now I live a more holy life than I even thought possible, not in spite of laying aside any kind of law that got in the way of grace, but BECAUSE I laid aside the laws and norms and commandments and rules. Finally I get it, finally I LIVE. Free at last! Free to love, free to get up when I fall, free to seek God with boldness and security. Free to serve him.

I pray that we all get to see His grace for what it really is. It's more humbling than any pointing finger.

catlover · Aug 5, 2005

[/U]Yes!!!

rosiecotton · Aug 5, 2005

womanofgodwcci said:
AND WOMAN OF GOD SAID "PRAISALUJAH!!"

and I ditto that!!!

holo · Aug 5, 2005

While I'm at it, I must admit that yes, I do feel very good about this kind of christianity...

aggie03 · Aug 5, 2005

holo said:
When people qoute Jesus "go and sin no more" and turn it into some kind of "hah! told you so, it's right here in black and white - STOP SINNING."

God wants people to stop sinning. There is nothing wrong with pointing that out.

It's amazing that we don't seem to see the order of things.

Isn't it though?

Jesus forgave, thus giving her the power to overcome sin.

Where does the passage say this? When reading through the passage the only reason why her sins are forgiven are because Jesus chose to forgive them. The woman did not overcome her sins, rather she was forgiven. There is a distinct difference.

But we prefer to skip the whole mercy part and go straight to jail, so to speak.

I don't prefer that.

Also, if she did sin again (hands up everyone who suspect she might, in some way or another, have sinned again before she died), I'm 100% sure Jesus would have said the exact same thing.

It seems as though you are not making a distcintion between slipping and falling. There is a difference between a Christian who occassionally sins and a Christian who has become a slave to sin. You will be hard pressed to show that a Christian who has become enslaved to sin will be saved, because the New Testament is very clear that they will not be. The letter to Hebrews, in fact, says that there state will be worse than if they had never become a Christian.

In forgiveness, in grace, lies the very power we need to overcome sin.

Depending on how you mean this will be depend on whether or not I agree with you

A common mistake is to assume the flesh is overcome by the flesh. But a kingdom at war with itself will perish. Spirit is to flesh like rocks are to scissors, when it comes to living right. Flesh vs. flesh = even score. Nobody wins.

What exactly do you mean by this?

joyinhim · Aug 5, 2005

holo said:
I'm not very good at debates and arguments.

I just wish you all could see my life and how it's changed. I used to do my very best to be "a good christian" but I could never ever make it. Sometimes I did good for a week, and that would give me a platform from which to judge others who didn't live up to my standards (a very common thing, isn't it). The next week I would fail, give in, fall, stumble, and regard my self as a low-life loser. Honestly, I think those are the only two options when you live according to law.

But now I live a more holy life than I even thought possible, not in spite of laying aside any kind of law that got in the way of grace, but BECAUSE I laid aside the laws and norms and commandments and rules. Finally I get it, finally I LIVE. Free at last! Free to love, free to get up when I fall, free to seek God with boldness and security. Free to serve him.

I pray that we all get to see His grace for what it really is. It's more humbling than any pointing finger.

The way you preach is so easy to listen to. That makes it very dangerous for people who don't want to disipline themselves. Your kind of preaching misleads people and stumble. I don't understand why you make it sound so evil if one tries to do their best to follow His teaching. Just because one tries to be obedient to the Lord that does not mean he or she will be perfect. I never claimed to be perfect or better than anyone else. I am only saying that He deserves our wholehearted devotion. Wholehearted devotion is love for Him and to each other. I don't see wholehearted devotion in this country as a whole. I have been watching a long time. And the situation is getting worse.

You are not from this country and I don't know about your country's church situation. The way I see it, this country's Christian society is corrupted. This is my observation and conviction. If my observation is right and doing what God wants me to do, you are fighting against God. When I read your posts, you don't seem to be reading the whole Bible especially the New Testiment. I can see that you are trying to change my view. It will not happen. You are only 26 and I am much older than that. I think its arrogant of you to think you can change me. I am trying to make you listen what I am saying. I truly hope you read New testament from beginning to the end thoroughly with open and honest heart.

cristalblaze · Aug 5, 2005

Jim Woodell said:
There is no contradiction here. "No man can pluck them out of my Father's hand...", but every Christian has the choice of staying or leaving (John 6:66-69). You can choose to jump out of the Father's hand. Unfortunately many have (Matt. 7:13-14).

This was something I was going to say in a similar way. You said it best.

cristalblaze · Aug 5, 2005

Godzchild said:
Joyinhim - have you ever considered, rather than looking at what other Christians are doing, maybe take care of your own walk with God? It sounds to me, and I could be reading too much into it, so I could be wrong (forgive me if I am), that you seem to be so busy looking at what other Christians are doing and shaking your head with disapproval...and not keeping your eyes on Jesus.

Very easy to do, admittedly, I do it myself sometimes. It only serves to tie me up in knots and to feel saddened for everyone when I have no idea what they are actually doing, what purpose they serve in God's church and where they have been. You would be amazed at how many people can be reached through the very people you look down on. If only you knew!!!

I was one such person

Unfortunately, when you become a victim from the deeds of a Bible believing Christian, you do sit up and take notice, whether you like it or not. Besides, we need to have discernment, and stay away from those Christians who are not following the Spirit.

cristalblaze · Aug 5, 2005

joyinhim said:
The way you preach is so easy to listen to. That makes it very dangerous for people who don't want to disipline themselves. Your kind of preaching misleads people and stumble. I don't understand why you make it sound so evil if one tries to do their best to follow His teaching. Just because one tries to be obedient to the Lord that does not mean he or she will be perfect. I never claimed to be perfect or better than anyone else. I am only saying that He deserves our wholehearted devotion. Wholehearted devotion is love for Him and to each other. I don't see wholehearted devotion in this country as a whole. I have been watching a long time. And the situation is getting worse.

You are not from this country and I don't know about your country's church situation. The way I see it, this country's Christian society is corrupted. This is my observation and conviction. If my observation is right and doing what God wants me to do, you are fighting against God. When I read your posts, you don't seem to be reading the whole Bible especially the New Testiment. I can see that you are trying to change my view. It will not happen. You are only 26 and I am much older than that. I think its arrogant of you to think you can change me. I am trying to make you listen what I am saying. I truly hope you read New testament from beginning to the end thoroughly with open and honest heart.

I agree with you completely. It is terrible to be victimized by a deviant "Christian" in my life ... but on the other hand, I certainly hope my prayers for these people will do good, and they will change.

joyinhim · Aug 5, 2005

cristalblaze said:
I agree with you completely. It is terrible to be victimized by a deviant "Christian" in my life ... but on the other hand, I certainly hope my prayers for these people will do good, and they will change.

Jesus loves your prayers. I will join you too.

holo · Aug 5, 2005

aggie03 said:
God wants people to stop sinning. There is nothing wrong with pointing that out.

Agreed, but not if it's done at the expence of grace, which I feel is often the case. I think it's completely and utterly wrong for a christian, himself professing to be saved by grace, to judge anyone for, say, being homosexual.

aggie03 said:
Where does the passage say this? When reading through the passage the only reason why her sins are forgiven are because Jesus chose to forgive them. The woman did not overcome her sins, rather she was forgiven. There is a distinct difference.

Yes, and we need forgiveness as long as we're on this planet.
My point is that I overcome the flesh and the world because I am a child of God, I've got some of his DNA in me, so to speak. The sinner can't NOT sin. I believe that what happens in salvation is we recieve the Spirit, who will guide us and overcome our fleshly weaknesses. Often, though, I see christians appeal to such things as morals or self discipline in order to overcome sin. I think that's wrong and dangerous.

aggie03 said:
It seems as though you are not making a distcintion between slipping and falling. There is a difference between a Christian who occassionally sins and a Christian who has become a slave to sin. You will be hard pressed to show that a Christian who has become enslaved to sin will be saved, because the New Testament is very clear that they will not be. The letter to Hebrews, in fact, says that there state will be worse than if they had never become a Christian.

I see we have very different views on what makes/keeps us saved and what a christian can and should do. I'm not out to debate it in this thread, but we should keep it in mind for the purpose of the subject here.

aggie03 said:
What exactly do you mean by this?

What I mean is that if I sin, I don't solve the problem through getting my act together or being moral or self-disciplined. I believe the problem of guilt is solved by forgiveness, the problem of sin is solved by being a new creation. If I lack love, there's no way I can produce it in and of myself - I must recieve it from the Lord. Since I met him, he has changed my heart so that I, among other things, don't take an interest in drugs anymore. I haven't overcome my addiction, he has set me free from it. It's a natural consequence of seeking his grace.

holo · Aug 5, 2005

joyinhim said:
The way you preach is so easy to listen to.

In some people's ears, I guess. That doesn't make it wrong though. Hard and heavy does not equal right and true.

joyinhim said:
That makes it very dangerous for people who don't want to disipline themselves.

I hope so! IMO it's God's job to discipline us. I don't preach self-discipline, I preach grace, love, forgiveness.
I can't really speak for others, but discipline and religion and morality has never saved me. Jesus, on the other hand... grace is powerful stuff.

joyinhim said:
Your kind of preaching misleads people and stumble.

No it doesn't. On the contrary, I've seen people be set free and finally begin to live a life of joy and fruit because of this. They lose the struggle in their relationship with God.

joyinhim said:
I don't understand why you make it sound so evil if one tries to do their best to follow His teaching.

I'm not looking to make it sound evil, but I think it's wrong to rely on one's own ability to do anything when it comes to our walk with Jesus. I don't think we can add or sustract anything at all to our salvation or holiness. And I believe that when we think we can, we often fall into either bondage or a judgmental mindset.

joyinhim said:
Just because one tries to be obedient to the Lord that does not mean he or she will be perfect. I never claimed to be perfect or better than anyone else. I am only saying that He deserves our wholehearted devotion. Wholehearted devotion is love for Him and to each other.

Agreed. To try to clarify my view, let me say that I used to "serve" God out of fear (of the world, satan and most of all, God). I didn't love him, because he was always just a judge out to get me. Now I love him like I never thought anyone could love anybody. I love him because he loved me first. I forgive because I'm forgiven.

joyinhim said:
If my observation is right and doing what God wants me to do, you are fighting against God.

Well, then your oservation must be wrong

I'm fighting for God, not against him. I share the gospel, I witness to people and help them. I bear fruit. Not because I try or am so determined to do so, but because I'm a branch on the vine. I'll talk about Jesus to anyone and everyone, because I think about him all the time. I have the very special joy of seeing how God is using me to reach out to others, especially the lost and confused and brokenhearted, and a lot of those who either left church or were cast out because they couldn't fit into the church culture.

joyinhim said:
When I read your posts, you don't seem to be reading the whole Bible especially the New Testiment.

Please elaborate.

joyinhim said:
I can see that you are trying to change my view. It will not happen.

I'm not trying to change your view, but I'm trying to make you understand me (and vice versa). I'm just sharing my points of view and my testimony and trying to explain my convictions.

joyinhim said:
It will not happen. You are only 26 and I am much older than that. I think its arrogant of you to think you can change me. I am trying to make you listen what I am saying. I truly hope you read New testament from beginning to the end thoroughly with open and honest heart.

I don't think I can change you, and I don't want to. If you're going to change, I want God to do the changing. I have no business judging you or trying to pressure you into my mold.

But yes, God can use me to change people regardless of how old they are. I will not let anyone despise my youth.

Be blessed in you walk. May God reveal his will for you and make you secure in your path. May he give us understanding of him and of each other. May he let you see my light, and I yours.

It's natural for siblings to argue...

Can you fall from being saved?

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